Can we present Fnarf with some kind of award? What a pal.
Damn, this brings back the entire nightmare of my life that was being gay at Whitworth College.....
The question "is it possible to be friends with someone who think differently about homosexuality than you do" was EXACTLY what the President of the college asked me!!! FUCK!! Who wants to be "friends" with someone who despises you for who you are? It is like asking a black man "would you be friends with a racist".
I can not read any more of that guys blog. Not before a weekend.
The discussion over there is very interesting. Thanks for posting this Dan. :)
We need to give Fnarf an award and a stipend. Brilliant.
Way to go Fnarf!!
Okay so I am reading more of it (Thank you for posting Dan though seriously thank you).
Christians are first called to love and to love unconditionally as the first and greatest commandment. That is how we are to become "Christian" which does mean "Christ Like". What so many Christians enjoy doing is to put conditions of their love of other members of humanity for whatever reason and many will try to use bibical passages to back it up.
I mentioned one time that if we each are called to hold to the first and greatest commandment which is love and that is a gift from God how can we stand in judgement of how one person sees themselves? How can one person judge how God has revealed itself to another person? The answer is simply no one can. A "Christ Like" person can not say a gay marriage is wrong; only the people involved with that marriage can make that call. They are living out the revelation that God has given them in the way they see fit.
Besides as one professor at Whitworth once mentioned in the college president's study group on homosexuality in 1995, "If we are to err on this issue should we not error on the side of love?"
Inclusion is love, exclusion is hate.
Okay, that was enough of my flashback. Now time for some drinks!!!
Wow; hopefully some real progress can come from all this.
I'll simply point to both sides that the other is human. Remember, Fnarf, that while gays know that they are gay, the people you're talking to know they are Christian. It's as much a part of their identity as being gay is to Dan.
Just as an aside, since I know Fnarf personally (partied at the cabin together, i have a couple of photos that includes both of us amongst others), his wife writes a superb blog! I go there every few days for some sustenance of the breathing, not typing, culture around us.
Anyway, a few weeks back, I read that they had gone and seen the righteous Morrisey. So if any of you are having an early night, he'll be on channel 7 later, just a few minutes before 12:30 I think.
I'll probably see it, because after bopping my head to 1 or 2 two songs by NOMO, I'll most likely be ready to split. I mean, after seeing and shouting along with Baaba Maal 5 years ago, afropop doesn't get much more real. The fact that it was a packed, sweaty club (S.O.B.'s) in lower Manhattan, SOHO?, only made it that much more heavy. And still, hanging out and playing with Wimp Factor XIV in the Village was the highlight that week in zee biggish Apple, iPhunky.
I do not say this in the spirit of mocking Pastor Cho...but I feel a need to draw Slog's attention to the fact that his kids are named Jubilee, Trinity, and Jedi.
don't want to take kudos away from fnarf but i feel like i should be given a little more credit. he wrote such a long post that my wordpress blog sent it automatically to spam.
fnarf freaked. jesus answered his prayers. i never check my spam but found his post there and saved it.
don't i at least get 2 points for that?
Points for the assist go to P.Cho. ;)
What the fuck is garret talking about?
Wow, that was some eloquent and persuasive scribing, Mr. Fnarf. I hope some of the congregation really take it in.
@10: Thank you, Eugene and Jesus, for rescuing Fnarf's post from the pits of hell. If I wrote something like that only to have it just disappear, I'd be vacuuming up smashed pieces of computer right now.
Holy shit, Fnarf.
I've been reading your comments on Slog from nearly the beginning, and I don't think I've ever seen you be so eloquent. I threw in a couple of comments over there, but I can't manage to be as nice and civil and so damned reasonable and persuasive as you.
Hat's off to you, my man. Well done. Well done!
Andrew @2 and 6: I also went to Whitworth, albeit more recently than you did. I recently had dinner with an '07 alum who regaled me with stories about the changing times at Whitworth... apparently this last spring there was a major 'uprising' of progressive students on campus, angry as hell about the hatred and bigotry that has pervaded the school. School got out before the heat could cause Whitworth to boil over, but word is that this fall will be quite an interesting time on campus. FINALLY. I remember how hard it was for me as a Democrat... can only imagine the heart-break to be there as a homosexual.
Yes, Eugene, you deserve kudos for rescuing my post and for the way in which you have approached this, from the beginning. I don't think we're ever going to get together in a big happy family, but I hope we can understand each other a little bit.
@ Katelyn, It is about time but I still burn my copy of Whitworth Today when it shows up in the mail. :0) It will be interesting to see how that will pan out since the Board of Trustees are pretty much still there and it is still Bill Robinson who is the President there. BTW, that quote from the 1995 Study group (I was the sole student and sole homo on the group) was never supposed to be repeated. So let's just keep that quote between you and me! :0)
@Eugene: I am very please with this discussion. I think many wonderful things may come from it.
i have no motivatiion to convert you or to de-homosexualize someone's views. i'm here to learn and as able, to extend some of my thoughts. and in doing so, to somehow convey that i do not hate, despise, or damn you to hell.
Fnarf, you are awesome. But I think we all need to give a little credit to E. Cho and the other commenters. It's been a great dialogue and the comments are a nice reminder that their are some not evil Christians out there who don't hate us. It's just a shame they aren't more vocal. I'm just sayin. If you don't like the stereotype that's been assigned to you... change it.
Dang! I love this place! Dan, you sparked one hell of a discussion over there. I didn't think that humans were capable of carrying on that level of discussion anymore (it was done in the past, e.g. Plato's Republic, which was based on a discussion held by the parties mentioned in it over the course of one night and day). Maybe there is hope for this species to become what it claims to be.
I love this blog!
The Wet One
Judging from the comments on his blog, it seems Cho has gotten himself in way over his head.
unfortunately, this is what happens when people moralize about groups and issues they clearly don't understand. At least he wants to avoid hurting people, but now that wish has come to completely obscure his real views, which he now seems unable to articulate.
I wish Christians would learn and explore what their views do to people, and how they cast God completely wrongly and destroy any relationship with him, with these hateful views that God is somehow picky about who he will love and welcome. This is what "judge not least ye be judged" is all about.
Oh, and SDA: you are a champion.
Clearly, while I'm not as brilliant as the posters on the slog, it's not so much that I'm unable to articulate.
I speak regularly in front of my conregation and travel here and there as a speaker. I feel compelled to just listen to the stories and pain that the church and my email to Dan caused.
The hill I am willing to die for is not the answer to the question "Are you for or against gays?" but rather, the manner in which I convey, demonstrate, and live out the grace of Christ.
If my views are seen as hateful, I apologize to you and others. Clearly, it is seen in that way. If I am a man of hatred, then may the Lord be harsh in his judgment of me.
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