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He's just sharing god's love from the inside, that's all.

Posted by monkey | June 12, 2007 3:41 PM

come on dan, you're acting no different than those christians you slander in your mocking title.

Posted by brad | June 12, 2007 3:48 PM

How's that, Brad?

Posted by Dan Savage | June 12, 2007 3:50 PM

Brad was shot in the face roughly seven minutes ago. He will not be able to reply.

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 12, 2007 3:57 PM

And it's only slander if it isn't true, Brad.

Posted by bma | June 12, 2007 3:57 PM

your title of an old christian praise song "they will know we are christians by our"...the next word is love, but you are substituting sex abuse in there instead. as though lumping all christians in w/ child abuse. so yes, bma, it is slander.

Posted by brad | June 12, 2007 4:04 PM

Love of .... abusing children? Is that how the song goes?

Posted by Gloria | June 12, 2007 4:06 PM

Yes, well... perhaps I am doing that. But only to make a point. Fundamentalist Christians run around insisting that only though Christ can humans be saved, that Christ is the font of all morality, and people who haven't been saved or given themselves to Christ can't be good. Those claims open Christians and their leaders--this was a youth minister, not some random congregent--up to scrutiny.

Posted by Dan Savage | June 12, 2007 4:09 PM

I tend to think Dan is lumping together all Christian pedophilic priests, ministers, pastors, youth leader, et al, into one catagory. The catagory of hypocrites who betray the trust placed in them by well meaning parents. A catagory where, some of us think, there is an extra special place in Hell for... which I am sure has something to do with maggot cheese, to say the least.

Posted by Phenics | June 12, 2007 4:18 PM

And until the GOOD Christians, the REAL Christians stand up and say "these people are not what Christianity is about" Dan is going to keep on point to the BAD ones.

Posted by monkey | June 12, 2007 4:19 PM

Brad, OMG! You're alive! With brain injuries! But you're alive! Praise God!

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 12, 2007 4:36 PM

The GOOD Christians, the REAL Christians, only ever bother to say that to people like me. They seem to be rather shy about getting up into the faces of the Robertsons, Dobsons, and Falwells (RIP). They spew, crickets chirp. You slam 'em, the GOOD Christians jump out from behind the furniture screaming, "How dare you! We're not all like that!"

Yeah, I know. My mom's a Christian. Now how about you open your mouths and scream just as loudly when the Robertsons, Dobsons, et all, claim to speak for you and all other Christians?

Posted by Dan Savage | June 12, 2007 4:38 PM


That shit just doesn't cut it. There is no point in even saying 'the good ones' or real ones. The majority of Christians aren't in the business of being tolerant. They're in the business of throwing stones.

Even the real Christian will throw a dirty look at a gay couple holding hands. The real Christian is still quick to judge anybody and anything but themselves.

The real Christians, the GOOD ones, are the minority of the 'religion' now.

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 12, 2007 4:45 PM

i think what dan is doing is fine intellectually. but it is mean-spirited. that, no doubt, is a result of the many mean-spiritied things done to him.

it's a shame shame. i'm sad that dan was ever treated that way, and that others are still being treated that way.

to be clear - this pedophile has done a terrible thing, and deserves scrutiny and scorn. but all christians need not be admonished for his wrongs. i think of my familiy members who are christians like dan's mom, and would never compare her to a child abusing youth pastor.

personally, i reserve my judgement for those whom i know have wronged or espouse a hostile view... not just judging a large and varied group of people. even then, i do not enjoy it.

oh, and i was brought up christian and to believe that ALL people were not good... even christians. the only good was found in forgiveness. certainly many a christian thinks/acts as if they were good. man, upbringing can be a mindfuck.

Posted by infrequent | June 12, 2007 4:58 PM

Not pedophile. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. The perversion is based on the victim not being sexually mature yet. Since the victim in this case was 15, and most likely was in some stage of puberty, if not all the way through it, it's not the same as pedophilia.

Posted by lymerae | June 12, 2007 5:15 PM

I got to say, I am so damn tired of the "We're all not like that!"

Really? Then speak the fuck up. Yell at your religious leaders. Refuse to give money to the Catholic Church until they start acting in a more tolerant manner.

I know there are good religious people and that religion has done good things, but man, with all the hate spewing from religious leaders, sometimes it is hard to remember.

Posted by arduous | June 12, 2007 5:28 PM

Uh, Mr Poe...

Even the real Christian will throw a dirty look at a gay couple holding hands.

You mean if they're blocking the aisle or access to coffee after the church service, right?


-Jen, who's been going to "welcoming" and "affirming" churches for over 10 years.

Posted by JenK | June 12, 2007 5:44 PM

Yell at your religious leaders.

Um, dude. What do you think is going on with the US and Canadian Anglicans vs Nigerian and other African Anglican churches?

Refuse to give money to the Catholic Church until they start acting in a more tolerant manner.

I don't think I ever have, actually. Why on earth would I?

Posted by JenK | June 12, 2007 5:50 PM

Its not just speaking up, its admitting that "christians" don't have some kind of moral superiority, and are just people. And people are FUCKED up.

and @ infrequent and brad: Pointing out hypocrisy is not mean. Its the slap in the face that people need. Its the "wake the fuck up and see what is happening" that is needed in society. If I'm being a hypocrite, I want people to tell me so I can stop being an asshat.

@Mr. Poe: LMFAO.

Posted by Original Monique | June 12, 2007 6:55 PM

I think I used to work with the guy. Weird.

Posted by anonymous | June 12, 2007 7:58 PM

Dan #12, that was my point. I hope you don't think my comment was anything but agreeing with you.

Posted by monkey | June 12, 2007 9:02 PM

Brad, OMG! You're alive! With brain injuries! But you're alive! Praise God!

Posted by chirag shah | June 13, 2007 1:23 AM

Brad, OMG! You're alive! With brain injuries! But you're alive! Praise God!

Posted by pleasure sex toys | June 13, 2007 1:26 AM

good christians?? do not exist, don't kid yourself...... in christianity you have a gregarious group (of whatever particular church, it does not matter) that excludes the others that do not share the same belief. and that extends to most religious, which are a set of rules that tell you (and everyone) how to live your life, mostly based on a stupid book written 2000 years ago. a bit outdated, right?

Posted by girl in spain | June 13, 2007 6:13 AM

Fuck em. No cult has tried to impose its will on everyone in America more than Christians. Their pundits & lobbyists speak the loudest, and in this administration are heeded. When people try to stand-up to them and say "No, I don't want to pray during your school sports function" or "No, I don't think my brain dead wife wants to live on life support for the rest of her life" you end up having to do battle with these fuckwits over their holy book & the mythology of 2,000 year old goat herders. Again, I repeat FUCK THEM.

Posted by JessB | June 13, 2007 6:42 AM

I am very sorry for what people did to you in the name of Christ, or morality, or whatever the catchphrase of the month was.
I can understand why you want to call attention to the hypocrisy of the people that have abused you. The thing is you are doing it at there level.
Look, think of what your reaction would be if the person you are slamming (justifiably) was not a Christian but instead a Prominent Gay Liberal Rights activist. So imagine someone else is writing about it. Use your attitude and substitute your standard Fundamentalist Bashing for some Gay Bashing Phrases, and PRESTO! you have the kind of emotional violence, and bigotry that you have been reacting to your whole life.
And we do speak to our leaders. It's just always easier to hear the screaming nut. I'm sorry Dan. I really am.

Posted by Chelsea | June 13, 2007 8:57 AM

What I love is people lumping all Christians together. I was raised by people who weren't sure Catholics were actually Christians, 'cause, you know, they aren't Born Again and they worship Mary (praying is worship, right?) And Eastern Orthodox - isn't that another name for, like, um, Muslims? Or Buddhists?

That said, I don't think Dan's series is a bad idea. Unfortunately, it is all too common for this sort of thing to get swept under the rug. Sometimes church leaders can't prove wrongdoing, so they fire the person. Since standalone churches, and even some of the smaller denominations, do not have the sort of hierarchy that the RCC has, a fired leader who wants to get a new job and avoid uncomfortable questions can leave a church off the resume and/or get a friend to serve as reference instead of the actual church.

In this case, the church in question doesn't even *exist* anymore. Fun, huh?

Posted by JenK | June 13, 2007 9:50 AM

@monique - you missed what i think is mean. i don't think it's mean to point out hypocracy, it's mean to say all christians are hypocrites. or to vaguely imply that all christians are like this guy: "They Will Know We Are Christians By Our… …indictment on charges of child rape."

i don't go to church. but i can still recognize behavoir i don't agree with.

i think many of us on this board may have had difficult experiences growing up -- and were often singled out and mistreated. i see many responses to this, but two common ones seem to be:

1) to lash out -- to fight back. i'm tired of people wronging me and i'm not going to take it anymore. i'm going to stoop to their level and show them what i'm (and they're) made of. i don't necessarily see anything wrong with this.

2) to empathize. having been wrongly treated in the past and being defined as a stereotype, some become sensitive to others who are now being treated similarly.

there are pros and cons to each approach. i think i try to lash out against those who a clearly the ones causing the problems, and try not to lump all ?ians together in the process.

dan, and others here seem to have come to the conclusion that all ?ians are responsible for the entire group, and therefor are the ones causing the problems. there is a certain attractiveness and validity to this line of thinking.

but i'm sensitive. what can i do? i'll try to give christians the benefit of the doubt and not assume every one i meet is out to imposed a certain set of specific beliefs on me via the law. i will not assume that all muslims share the same philosophies either, like some GOPers are fond of doing...

Posted by infrequent | June 13, 2007 10:37 AM

Jesus once said “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

Personally, I can't imagine that all this fundamental christian bullshit is what Jesus had in mind. People need to shut the fuck up and worry about their own lives.

Posted by michigan sinner | June 13, 2007 12:22 PM

Mr. Poe:
"Even the real Christian will throw a dirty look at a gay couple holding hands."

You're judging Christians for judging a gay couple. So it's ok to judge someone from judging someone else, but not for being gay? Shouldn't you be equally aggravated at everyone judging Mr. Krum's actions? The only difference seems to be whether or not your agree with the judgment.

Posted by Steve | June 14, 2007 5:44 PM

steve, i think you should quit judging people that are judging people for judging people.

maybe that will make it easier for me to quit judging people who are judging people that are judging people for judging people.

Posted by infrequent | June 15, 2007 11:01 AM

Dan, I think you are right about SOME of the "I'm better than you" type of christians. They are not displaying what God has instructed. Christians sin just as non-christians. The difference is we ask God for the strength to resist the temtations. Sometimes we slip up too. I hope Brad gets help after his jail term, and I feel bad for his children and the rest of his family. They are victims too.

Posted by Todd V | June 18, 2007 8:40 PM

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