Well you're supposed to have that thing that goes off in your head. That Bad Fucking Idea, Man! thing. He lacks that thing.
He should just ignore it. What's the point in confronting somebody like that anyway? If you're not going to punch him in the face, you're going to...reason with him? In front of his friends? Who obviously had no problem with the bigoted remark? Good luck with that.
alcohol kills that thing mr poe.
No one who hates the gays has any business setting foot on Capitol Hill. Run home to mommy, boys, before you catch any gay cooties.
I think there is another issue to this story though. It was touched a little while back when you did your story about Club Lagoon. The issue I am talking about is why Club Lagoon, The War Room, and Sugar are not taken to task more for having these nights that cause people to come into the neighborhood and perpetuate violence and harassment against the residents of the neighborhood, and sometime specifically target queer people. Pike\Pinhe didn't used to be like this.
This is true. Rama rama ding dong, oh well!
How ironic that things like this make me want to support that evil nightlife ordinance... I would fully support shutting down these clubs for not regulating the scum they attract.
I thought the same thing. I've got a decade of martial arts training under my belt, and if that's taught me anything, it's taught me the value of walking away from conflict. If he did walk up to his attackers, I can't call his actions anything other than egotistical. Someone less charitable would call it stupid.
Yeah, great idea. While we're at it, let's start banning everything we possibly can if it could save one life and all that bullshit.
Actually, Pike/Pine DID used to be like this, but I agree: it shouldn't be anymore, and I'd like to see more pressure put on the bars that bring the homophobe crowd into Cap Hill.
I saw the victim interviewed on the 11pm news last night - either KOMO or KIRO. I was actually heartened to see one of the major news channels giving the man airtime to say "this shouldn't happen to me just because I'm gay", with the slant of the story agreeing with him.
Yeah, it probably wasn't smart to approach that group. But how do you push back when your neighborhood - your should-be-safe neighborhood - starts attracting asshats left and right? I can see thinking a conversation might work - especially after drinking a bit.
perhaps they have nights that attract "those people" because they are more profitable than yet another gay night at yet another CH night club.
i think the best way to fight it is to go out in force with your gay friends and make it known you arent going to be pushed around or kept away. the more you shrink back into your community the less profitable it will be to cater to you, the more the clubs will cater to stupid west seattle homophobic rubes.
What ever happened to Q-Patrol?
im thinking that for 4 or 5 weeks straight a bunch of gays and lesbians should just crash club lagoon, the war room, etc etc when they have these events.
make it so unbearable for the homophobes they wont go there anymore, or theyll come around to accepting and liking gay people just the way they are.
sure you might get punched but for christ sakes, gays in new york were attacked with crowbars by construction workers. blacks were hosed down and bitten by dogs and clubs.
in the big picture getting punched would be worth it, if it motivated change and you got your message out. instead of this guy who got attacked in reaction.
I'd like to see more pressure put on the bars that bring the homophobe crowd into Cap Hill
That's a great idea. Now, can you just define "the homophobe crowd" in specific terms? Would that be skin color or religion or sexual preference or...?
You know, one way to do this really specifically would be to picket the clubs during clube events where there's been documented cases of anti-queer violence. You don't want to get too reactionary about this kind of thing, but if there's a confirmed case of gay bashing, I think the community can safely respond.
non violent picketing isnt nearly as fun or uncomfortable for h-phobes as patronizing the club and mingling.
When I first visited NYC a little over 10 years ago, a friend told me this: When walking after dark, always stay aware of your surroundings, keep your eyes down, walk quickly like youíre on a mission, and never ever respond to someone who randomly talks to you on the street whether they want spare change, to sell you weed or call you a faggot. Itís some of the most practical advice Iíve ever received and has worked well in NYC, London, LA, Seattle, etc.
Uhhhhh... this looks to me like ass coverage for the fact that it happened and the paper simply never got around to mentioning it. I'd like to think you guys wouldn't just ignore news.
Whether or not it was smart of said gay men to turn around and respond to a gang of hate, it still happened and it's surprising that you wouldn't bring it up.
That's like saying you didn't cover a shooting because the victims taunted the shooter before he opened fire. WHAT.
I'm shocked you would ignore an attack like this just because you didn't agree with the actions of the victim.
Wrong, Dan. 700 E. Pike is NOT a "dark street" at 2:40 Saturday night. Also, bigots are FAR outnumbered by right-thinking people ANY TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT on this block. I'm glad this guy didn't just take this shit. Hopefully these assholes are shitting on themselves right now, hoping they don't get caught.
doug, they were outnumbered and still beat this guy up. where were the burly homo protectors?
Dear fellow commentors and/or sloggers:
A while back someone (I think Dan, but I'm not sure) wrote something about the intoxication dosage of drugs as compared to the dosage of drugs it takes to kill you. Does anyone remember where or when this entry was posted? I've tried searching the slog, but I've come up empty handed. HELP!
It was in Savage Love, C.
Also, we don't cover everything, Gomez. And maybe my post is ass-covering. But when someone in comments first said "what about this!" I thought, "Looks like the PI is on it, looks like there's not much there, no one is dead--and, man, that was dumb, approaching those guys like that." And so I didn't post anything about it. Can't speak for my pole-smoking colleagues, though, not one of whom seems anxious to speak up about this.
i'm with you, dan.
and, yo, tiffany @4: this incident occured at 2:40 in the morning. every bar and club in the pike/pine corridor (with the exception of neighbors) has already kicked everyone out by 2am. last call is usually at 1:30.
it is not the responsibility of bars and clubs to clear or patrol the streets nearly an hour after they have closed their doors. that is the responsibility of the SPD.
"having these nights" -- do you mean hip hop? with "those sorts" of people? sounds like thinly veiled racism to me.
I'm with Misty Brown - this sounds like a job for Q PATROL! Form of... A safety triangle! Shape of... matching berets!
I"m sort of with #16 here--though, for the moment, I won't call it covering your asses. But only for the moment.
Why would your opinion about what someone should or should not do in such a situation dictate why you don't post news?
I have mixed feelings about the guy taking on the homophobs on his own even though he was outnumbered. Part of me agrees with Dan and "Shit you are out numbered just turn and get the hell out of there" But there is another part of me that is proud of him standing up to the assholes that seem to be growing in numbers and strength on the Hill. And yeah, we all know the city cops are not doing much to stop the plague of homophobia that is becoming more prelevant on Cap Hill.
One more thing homophobia does not have a racial boundry for some of you worried people are attacking the hip hop crowds. Homophobic thoughts do not discriminate on the basis of race, gender or anything else.
Because, Boomer, we're not a wire service. We don't post about everything -- we can't. It's a pretty brutal process, what does and does not make our print edition (which has a 2 to 3 page news section). For a story to make it to Slog, well, that only requires that a writer at the paper be interested in enough in it to link to it, which we only usually do when we have something to add. Clearly this story didn't work up anyone on staff for various of reasons -- and I've stated mine.
This may have been prevented if there was an actual police presence on Pike/Pine at night instead of that one police car that just sits there on Pine and 12th.
oh fuck kerri get off your high horse. we know perfectly well that rplace can pull off hip hop nights without subjecting the neighborhood to the goonery that goes on outside of war room. why can they manage to keep things peacefull while the war room cannot?
Dan, you comments are stunning. You would never have said the same thing if the victim was Black. What about a woman? What about that poor girl in Iraq who was stoned to death? She knew that her clan vehemently opposed her relationship with the Sunni boy. Why did she selfishly pursue her love interest?
Dan, you comments sounds strangely like something Dr. Laura would say. And notice that the investigation into her son has quietly disappeared despite the alleged actions he took of posting pedophilic images and rape pictures on the web.
Like the attack at the ol'Timberline awhile back, the bashers come into Seattle from the burbs. I doubt this group is any different (a honda accord? must be from auburn/renton. but I'm local so I'm sterotype here...).
For those resident-tourists who are somewhat foggy-eyed about Seattle being somesort of a homosexual paradise, it isn't a place to be naive blinded by the rainbows and move about in a daze, thinking all is hunky-dory. The rest of the state is pretty "conservative" when it comes to gay folks and the rest of the state comes into Seattle to party because, well, it is the BIG CITY and all.
Seattle is a fairly tolerant city. Those homophobes who live in residence in Seattle will not even bat an eye-lash over same sex hand holding while on a city street... they keep their hate in check. The folks from the burbs? looking for pussy and failing that, an ass to kick. They won't keep the hate in check and will NOT quitely tolerate anyone they don't like.
Gay folks, all folks actually, need to remember that the streets of central Seattle are the inner-city; all walk of life can be found here. And as such, can and should be considered dangerous.
there simply arent enough black people in seattle for there to be racist connotations in relation to a hip hop crowd.
Dan fails to be shocked by the story because what happened in the story was exactly what he expected to happen.
And thats stunning how?
It sucks but it isnt shocking.
Uh... for the record, I would say the exact same thing if the victim were black. Racism: wrong. Bigots: bad. Confronting bigots when you're outnumbered three to one? Not necessarily a good idea.
Dan: Thank you! (I'm lecturing a 15 year old daughter of a friend today and I wanted some stats to back it up with.)
By the way, I love listening to your podcasts, but your voice is eerily similar to my older brother's. He's middle-aged and a devout mormon, so you can understand my slight discomfort at hearing what you say in my brother's voice. It's kind of funny.
someones gotta say it though: gay guys fight as well as girls throw frisbees.
A drunk mormon man would probably behave somewhat like Dan.
See: " The Toxicity of Recreational Drugs", American Scientist, May, 2006 for more detail.
Also, if you're dealing with teenagers and drugs, take a look at Safety First, a project from the Drug Policy Alliance, described as "a reality-based approach to teens and drugs."
@4: i'm going to have to agree with kerri @21. there are gay-haters everywhere, you cannot single out certain clubs based on the "type" of people they draw. i have danced the night away with many of my gay friends at each club mentioned. by verbally attacking the "crowds" that kick it at war room, sugar, and club lagoon, assuming they are gay-hating, you are no better than the bigots that physically attack.
i know a bunch of hippie girls that can throw frisbees quite well.
Who cares if it was dumb thing to do? It's interesting how discussions about things like this often devolve into a sort of victim blaming. Even if we all implicitly agree that the attackers were wrong, victim was indeed the victim, why then do we all end up discussing how dumb it was for that guy to get attacked? Seems to me like the more important issue is that that place wasn't safe for him/isn't safe for queers, and that needs to change.
Dan hits the nail on the head with comment 33.
After all of these comments, especially Dan's, you still missed the point(s).
Alphonse @ 40, it's because it isn't a black and white issue. Nothing in life is. It takes two to tango, so the victim - and he is a victim, and no one is saying he isn't - bears a portion (a small portion, but a portion nonetheless) of the responsibility for what happened. That's not the same as saying that it was his fault.
I don't care how outnumbered I am. I'd just walk up, rip off a testicle and eat the damn thing. How do you like them apples?
Hey now, I resent that! I'm gay... but at the same time, I'm no where near the gay stereotype.
Let's get drunk, start a fight, maybe watch some football at a bar, and then throw up in said bars urinal.
Sounds like a nice night.
And for the record, I agree that it's not smart to start fights you can't win... doesn't mean I don't do it, though.
It's just a fight! Bruises heal. Cuts heal. Just go with it.
Beer, bar fights, football, butt-banging...sounds like a sexy night. Stop playing tough. Why don't you tell them about the scat party we had last night, Clayton. You'll always be my little poo-poo kitten, Clayton.
The gays have been abondoning the clubs (Blu, Sugar) in recent years so they are clearly the ones that opened Pandora's Box. Everytime a gay sets foot in R Place they should realize they are only contributing to the Hip Hop problems on Capital Hill. Hip Hop is not gay and seeing gay people listening and "bouncing" to Hip Hop is beyond unattractive.
Hip Hop is trash and promotes violence among drunk patrons. Does not matter your color. All races listen to Hip Hop.
@ 47, heavy metal also used to not be gay - until the supreme metal god Rob Halford came out of the closet. Wait until a rap superstar does the same...
Anna @ 38
Verbal attacks are just as bad as physical attacks? Do you really think about this shit before you type it?
@46 thats the problem i see but slightly different. its not that gays have stopped going clubs, its that there are enough gay friendly clubs out there that the market segment that many clubs have to cater to stay in business are not gay.
the problem just compounds itself. the war room gets less gay business so they start having more hip hop, etc etc nights, so they get even less gay business and they keep going on their path.
now you can look at the converse of this ; "well if we continue to patronize them they wont learn their lesson." if you patronize them you are a customer and businesses listen to their customers most the time.
@35: someones gotta say it though : You're an asshat. You have obviously never met any gay people, or women in Ultimate Frisbee leagues. For the record, I am a chick and I could kick your fucking ass.
Shit, I just fed the troll. Sorry everyone.
that was actually Josh playing a joke on us.
How come no one ever calls me a faggot? I wish some one would so I could use all the boxing and wrestling lessons my dad made me take.
Andrew, you're obviously not nelly enough.
@ 27 and 29: Your comment about R Place being able to pull off a hip hop night without bigotry or violence amazes me...
Let's see, what would the number one reason for that difference in clubs be?
Hmmmm... Maybe it's because bigots don't generally head out for a night at the gay club, regardless of whether they like the music or not. That factor does a lot to reduce conflict.
Maybe I'm just too big and angry.
@49: obviously, physical attacks are more harmful if you are comparing the two in shortsightedness. the point that was meant to be made: mental bigotry manifests physical bigotry. both play integral roles in the cycle of oppression - they are in the end, both equally as harmful.
"Bigots act in bigoted ways" on it's own isn't a story. I agree that when I read this I just went, "Well, yeah." Of course that is what happened. If every case of a hate crime was reported, when would the reporters sleep? The world sucks, we all know this - it's news when it contains something new.
I got punched in the face when I was 16 by a 40-something huge barrel of a guy. 'Cause I was watching a drag show, and he decided to come in and sit at the bar making highly insulting comments. I was pissed off, I told him what an asshat he was and threw my drink on him. Who is surprised I got punched? It's not news.
(It was, however, a damn cool story for how I got my first black eye.)
what is bigoted about saying people who like hip hop also have a distaste for gays, if the evidence supports the fact that gays attacked in seattle are often victimized by people that attend hip hop shows?
and seriously who is bigoted against hip hop music? old people whom also dont like gays. and white people.
but guess who also loves hip hop more than any other race (in absolute numbers)? WHITE PEOPLE! and guess where 75% of the population is white? HERE!
and why isnt anyone in the hip hop community saying "stop beating up the homos?". theres barely anyone in the gay community saying "lets to beat up those punk bitches at the war room because they listen to hip hop".
are you trolling anna?
there are gay-haters everywhere, you cannot single out certain clubs based on the "type" of people they draw.
Really? A lot of us have identified the bad apples of Capitol Hill as the War Room, Sugar, and Club Lagoon long ago. Sadly, it's no surprise when violent or anti-gay incidents happen at any of these places anymore.
If the crowds at these clubs are no more homophobic than any other bars or clubs, why aren't there significant violent or anti-gay incidents at any other Capitol Hill bars or clubs?
are there any non-gay bars in seattle that manage to pull off hip hop nights without flooding the surrounding neighborhood with violence? i seem to recall rebar doing something along those lines. regardless, i just want to be able to walk down the street without being harassed. i don't care if it's a hip hop bar or a polka bar or a swedish death metal bar that's causing the problems.
Can someone explain what hip hop has to do with this issue?
Are there people here who can confirm that the attackers in question left a hip hop night?
I'm not saying there aren't issues regarding hip hop and gay tolerance, but why has it been brought up here when no one has been able to confirm it was an issue at all?
saturday night: yo! son. every saturday night.
@62: the incident took place on the 700 block of e. pike, which has led commenters to assume that it is somehow linked to the war room, which is located on that block.
no matter that the club had been closed for nearly an hour at the time of the attack. no mention of the fact that the area is home to many other bars and clubs, as well as a 24-hour grocery store and all-night gas station up the street.
you are absoultely correct in saying that there is no confirmation about where the perps had been earlier in the evening. the assumption that they had been at a hip hop night is unfair and potentially bigoted.
yes, im sure that people at the maharaja that did this.
kerri, why were they on foot? why were they parked nearby? what other clubs are within walking distance that arent gay friendly? do people hang outside the club after closing hours?
i'd live to dot map gay attacks around the city and see the correlation to hip hop shows.
so on and so forth.
I don't think it's the war room, it's those graffiti dudes hanging out in front of the maharaja next door. That place serves underaged kids, so it's always a bunch of 18, 19 year old graffiti/skater kids.
Maybe it was the crowd from Rosebud? They are notorious for terrorizing the neighborhood after last call.
no! I figured it out, they were there to do an after hours trade in at the BWM Dealership.
isn't neighbors open till three? they must have been there all night and had a shame inside of themselves after
Actually Kanye West has gone on record dissin homophobia rampant in the hip hop culture.
Course he runs his mouth off a lot so likely no one listened.
Things that will make me move out of Seattle: CH becomes Pioneer Square/Belltown, the Sonics leave, the Cuff closes. Guess I should start packing my bags...
For the record, this was originally reported on my space via an onlooker who questioned police about the situation, and at least 2 of your staff members had the oportunity to read and spread this information. When incidences like this occur I find that telling as many people as possible about these attacks.
I think it's a shame that no one passed the information about this incident on to the stranger, and in the future I'm not going to sit on my duff and wait for someone else to take note.
What are these gay bashing chodes doing in capitol hill?
Also, I bet it was someone from Dlist magazine (picked one up from a kiosk at Pacific Place since I've already read the stranger). They're a great publication that boast an entirely straight events calendar, mentioning Bob Saget preformances but not the fact that Pride weekend is coming. They should have brought it up just to alert their homophobe readership.
@57 yes mental bigotry leads to physical bigotry but it is still incomprehensible to say that they are the same. Don't you think Matthew Shepard would rather his attackers have just thought he was a faggot instead of actually murdering him? "In the end," as you put, they are not the same. He is dead instead of just having hateful things thought about him.
Dan, what inspired the unusually laconic column?
Mr. Poe @ 40: although I appreciate the congratulations, I actually did get the point; I just didn't care much for it. Personal preference, really, but I'd rather see a little outrage here. I don't think it's so unreasonable to want to live in a place where queers, yes, even those of us who don't much like being called faggots or whatever those thugs said, don't get the shit kicked out of them for failing to walk away quietly from bigotry, head down. I still think I can get pissed off about this story, and hope others do too, even if it's obvious that the victim could have acted more carefully.
Message received, and duly noted.
You're probably right. If it was those graffiti kids, it wouldn't have been the first time they've jumped someone right there either.
graffiti kids that own a 2000 honda?
ill have to do some detective work from honey hole for this.
"Can someone explain what hip hop has to do with this issue?"
Dangerous black people make it, dangerous black people listen to it, some black people stand to enrich themselves with it.
Oh yeah, and most of the lyrics are misogynistic and homophobic. At least that's what the NY Times, Time Magazine and Anderson Cooper have taught me.
FWIW, I love hip-hop. I always have some Run DMC and Public Enemy on rotation on my digital audio player.
The guy didn't get beat cause he was gay, he got beat cause he was a dumb fuck who confronted strangers on the street.
Dangerous Black People are now White Suburban Youth?
81: I'm making fun of the perception of rap music some folks on here have. It has nothing to do with the attacks, but with the cultural assumptions surrounding it, i.e. it's all shitty thug music that gansterizes and pimpifies anyone in contact with it, instead of recognizing that it's a genre of music with the same highs and lows any genre has.
Rap gets a bad rep because it's regarded as a "low" form of black music that threatens the white and well off with the specter of black crime.
Some of it is also authentically bad, but so are a lot of things.
Then why are many if not most venue related violent crime associated with hip hop and hardcore?
Its like saying sugar in itself isnt bad or dangerous and many people love sugar, but you will get a bunch of ants if you leave sugar out, and these ants will kick your ass.
my message to other gays is to quit being so stupid. you are living amonst your enemies so quit being so fucking nice. I personally have a glock and a 38 that i keep for my protection and i trust nobody. i basically make the straights do the dirty work like fight wars and the other shit that i dont want to do and make my living selling high interest loans sometimes to assholes in the army who fought i iraq while i just sat here selling loans to people. do i care? no.because if people hate me i hate them. be smart and take advantage of those who hate you and establish that to bash you is to be put into the back of a hearse.
I lived on the hill for ten years, and walked home late at night many, many times. I was called names a few times, but I always let it go. Mostly because I freely admit to being a coward when it comes to fighting, but also because - having worked in bars - I know the psychology of drunks. It's just not worth confronting them.
If cornered or actively provoked, I think I could handle it, but why look for trouble, especially from a bunch of drunks?
And, for the record, homophobia on the hill is nothing new. It was never a paradise to live in. That's what makes it such a fun and interesting place.
ummm.... just wondering how this guy was attacked by six men and his only reported injury was a "cut behind his left ear"?
"Then why are many if not most venue related violent crime associated with hip hop and hardcore?"
Why yes, of course music is the sole agent of urban crime, and before these forms of music existed there was no crime in the city.
Thanks for clearing that up for me.
And now that I think about, there wasn't any crime, thugs, or homophobia in the city before rap and hardcore came along. Now I understand that music is a major socio-political cause of America's problems.
venue related, jay. You missed that part.
i could totally go for a bandit for breakfast.
As a long time bigot, I got to say that faggit got just what was coming to him. Not just for being but for approaching as soon as that bigot said what ever he said they should have both hauled ass. And whats the deal with letting his butt-pounding boyfriend get away. I for one thank that that was some very lazy bigot work. I mean come on 6 on 2 and only one guy got his ass kicked. If gays are so sick with being bashed they should just carry a gun or other weapons. Then it would make way more fun for the bigots (If there real) & and the gays. I mean other minority's don't mind to carry weapons and shit like that just for some mothafuckin bigots
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