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RSS icon Comments on Dan Savage vs. Ed Young

1

So, is it straight-friendly? And is it likely to include that beautiful woman at the Egyptian I keep running into at SIFF?

Posted by Will in Seattle | June 1, 2007 11:47 AM
2

"It may not be what some people believe the bible commands... and those people are free to refrain from entering into same-sex marriages, if they believe gay marriage is wrong. But to insist that other people may not marry because your holy book forbids it, well, that is the definition of religious bigotry. Or tyranny."

Why is this so hard for people to understand? Why is this so hard for Americans to understand? Thousands upon thousands of brave men didn't die for Christianity, they didn't die for religious freedom, they died for Freedom. It should be a fucking four-letter word. Maybe then it would be easier to understand.

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 1, 2007 11:51 AM
3

Dan,
I've been reading your stuff on chemistry.com (no, I don't surf there - I got there by googling you - which I guess means you earned your pay). Excellent post! A very well articulated take down of Ed. It was, as you said, uncharacteristically restrained and that really added to its punch. You're a much better writer when you don't use the bitchiness crutch. Keep up the great work!

Posted by Providence | June 1, 2007 11:55 AM
4

Great posts, Dan. Is it just me, however, or are the statistics you quote on the wrong topic? You're talking about public approval of gay marriage, and the quoted paragraph refers to adoption.

Nice work, though!

Posted by Levislade | June 1, 2007 11:58 AM
5

No matter how well you argue you cannot possibly change the mind of someone like Ed.

That's like trying to explain to a serial killer why their actions are wrong.

It just...doesn't work. At all.

Valiant effort, though.

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 1, 2007 12:00 PM
6

to poe. isnt that the same for people on slog? i mean, i never expect to change the mind of someone on slog and i engage in debates i know the position im taking is wrong in simply to spice things up.

Posted by Bellevue Ave | June 1, 2007 12:03 PM
7

Private school huh? If you don't mind, where at and for what?

Posted by rob | June 1, 2007 12:07 PM
8

@6

Yeah, it's kind of the same for anyone who holds strong passion in what they believe. Though that is highly circumstantial, I find it somewhat true. On a long enough scale, everything is pointless I guess. We should all just die and let the animals rule the Earth.

Posted by Mr. Poe | June 1, 2007 12:13 PM
9

@8

That's (one of the many reasons) why I could never run for President, as that would more or less be my platform.

Posted by Levislade | June 1, 2007 12:17 PM
10

Nice post, Dan. But I take issue with you saying that "Falwell's bigotry was motivated by his frankly un-Christian reading of the Bible". He basically was adhering to what the ancient people who wrote the Bible claimed their invisible sky monster really wanted. That is not un-Christian at all. It's just that other people have been able to ignore parts of the Bible in order to hold onto their unjustified magical beliefs.

Posted by Tiffany | June 1, 2007 12:24 PM
11

Thanks for the catch, Levislade. Made changes.

Posted by Dan Savage | June 1, 2007 12:30 PM
12

My wife and I discussed foregoing a legal marriage. (Just to be clear, I'm male and she's female. I know, pretty dull, but that's what we are.) Although we identify ourselves as Christians, we tend to get a bit pugnacious when some demagogues try to pretend there's some sort of homogenous Christian ideology to which we subscribe. So, just as there are some people who don't identify as conservative Christians who oppose gay marriage, there are some people who DO identify as Christian who oppose unhealthy relationships. Having a good marriage is way more important than having a straight marriage.

Personally, I'm in favor of removing all State sanctioned benefits of marriage. Want tax relief for having children? Great. Sign a contract. Want death benefits? Great. Sign a contract. Want legal medical proxy rights? Great. Sign a contract.

Maybe we could have one big contract that rolls all of those things together...call it a "Civil Union" (you know, a Union that's recognized by a Civil body), and be done with it. Want to enter a civil union with your roommate? Or your roommate's houseplant? Fine. Knock yourself out.

Want a marriage? Talk to your preferred flavor of holyperson. I have a MUCH closer relationship with the minister who married us than I do with any government official. Isn't that the way it should be?

Posted by Lee Gibson | June 1, 2007 12:32 PM
13

Well done Dan.

Posted by monkey | June 1, 2007 12:42 PM
14

i;ve said it before and i'll say it before again, arguing with bigots is like playing chess with retarded children. futile and headache making. i'd rather watch a nice sunrise.

Posted by adrian! | June 1, 2007 1:01 PM
15

I ran over to read yours and the preceding post after reading this slog entry and I must say, I'm impressed. Ed's post disgusted me in the way some Christians do when they are trying to seem less bible-thumping. In my opinion, your response post nailed everything so well, that I'm really curious to see what Ed could possibly say in response to that.

Posted by Angela | June 1, 2007 1:11 PM
16

I ran over to read your and the preceding post after reading this slog entry and I must say, I'm impressed. Ed's post disgusted me in the way some Christians do when they are trying to seem less bible-thumping. In my opinion, your response post nailed everything so well, that I'm really curious to see what Ed could possibly say in response to that.

Posted by Angela | June 1, 2007 1:12 PM
17

Dan, Sometimes you just make me cry (in a good way). Sometimes I really disagree with you, mostly on issues that are local in nature. But then I read something like this, or I hear you on 'This American Life' doing an exerpt from "The Kid" and you bring tears to my eyes.

Thanks for using your talents to articulate what we all feel but sometimes don't have the skill or the patience to put into words.

Posted by Some lesbian | June 1, 2007 1:30 PM
18

Wow. Nice piece, Dan - an argument worth of Justices Black and Brennan. Maybe you should have been a lawyer? Of course, I'd never be able to afford you.

A politician once told me you can never persuade someone who already has his/her mind set. Campaigns and debate are only for the disinterested and the ambivalent.

I'm not quite ready to resign myself to the nihilism suggested by Adrian (#14), but as I move into middle-middle age, I see that some issues are, unfortunately, generational. All the fuddy-duddies (old and young)have to die out before the world can become slowly and steadily more progressive.

And that's a drag because I'd love to see gay marriage in my lifetime. And national health care. And an African-American president. Or even a Jewish one.

Posted by Bauhaus | June 1, 2007 1:31 PM
19

Paying "private school tuition"?

Dan, you've got some 'splaining to do.

Posted by Do as I don't? | June 1, 2007 1:32 PM
20

When have I said that people shouldn't send their kids to private schools?

Our son has gay parents. We didn't want to wind up in a school where gay parents were "tolerated," or a school that was "neutral" on the "issue" of gay families. So public schools were pretty much out.

Posted by Dan Savage | June 1, 2007 1:36 PM
21

And each individual couple gets to decide for themselves what their committing to by marrying.

Can you edit this entry, Dan?

Good job on the private school decision--not only because of the bigotry found in public schools, but the quality of education.

Posted by Tank | June 1, 2007 2:07 PM
22

And each individual couple gets to decide for themselves what their committing to by marrying.

Can you edit this entry, Dan?

Good job on the private school decision--not only because of the bigotry found in public schools, but the quality of education.

Posted by Tank | June 1, 2007 2:07 PM
23


People are tolerant at private schools? That's news. Unfortunately, if all gay parents take your route, public school kids will continue to think that gay parents don't exist. That's not good, right? (I know, I know, no one wants their kid to be the guinea pig...)

ANYWAY, I applaud you, Dan, for your perserverence and optimism in the face of these conservatives. While many people would just give up, you continue to advocate and make sense these many, many years. It may not make a difference on dear old Ed, but he's not the only one whose reading.

Thank you.

Posted by yikes | June 1, 2007 2:13 PM
24

Oh Dan, once again your gift for articulation humbles and inspires.

Posted by Dianna | June 1, 2007 3:43 PM
25

Dan, you are truly the man: you've got a fresh take on the flight from public schools. Nice job!

Posted by Do as I don't? | June 1, 2007 4:58 PM
26

Sorry, Do As I Don't?, but I wasn't going to use my son as the the tip of a spear. He doesn't like to be the center of attention. We didn't want to put him in a school where we could wind up in a battle with other parents or administrators over acknowledging the existence of gay families. If he were a different kid, maybe. But it wouldn't have been the right choice for DJ. You want to jump down someone's throat? Go find a bigot.

Posted by Dan Savage | June 1, 2007 5:16 PM
27

Hit a nerve, have we?

But please, Dan, you make everything in your personal life grist for your writings and fuel for your celebrity. So that claim doesn't wash. Be honest. You wanted out of public schools and claimed in advance victim status so you could get out.

If you got proof behind your claim about a Seattle public school in your neighborhood, that's a Stranger cover story -- your franchise topic, so do tell.

Otherwise, aren't you just another limousine liberal?

Posted by Do as I don't | June 1, 2007 11:23 PM
28

Do as I don't, it is foolish to criticize someone you don't know about their parenting skills. Unless you have evidence that Dan is abusing his kid, you should drop it. Parents who try to make good decisions about their kid's upbringing based on that child's individual needs should be commended. I wish my parents had done the same and sent me to public school instead of private.

Posted by Mary | June 2, 2007 8:41 AM
29

No one's saying Dan is abusing his kids. He's abusing his readers with excuses about how he's bailed on the public system.

Posted by The Singing Superintendent | June 2, 2007 9:12 PM
30

um, great post, but women still are not legally equal - i'm pretty sure our ERA did not pass. currently we live under a false assumption that women are equal and we're not - employers and the like just have niftier loopholes and "company rules" that still promote quiet sexism.

in addition, as someone in a long-term, committed relationship who *doesn't* want to get married, where are my rights? i (and my boyfriend) feel that marriage would mean relinquishing financial and emotional freedom in exchange for decision-making abilities - can't we have that without the 50-50 split (and other punitive) laws? yeeesh. shit happens, nothing says people will be together forever, married or not, why punish people for it? people might not want to get married because the law is bloody nasty to married couples on the punitive end of things - sure, i can dig clams on my spouse's clam digging license, but what if he goes and runs up some horrific debt without my knowledge and hey look, now i'm responsible and my credit is trashed, simply because i married him. people might be scared off because of the feds and state, religion be damned.

Posted by Ann | June 2, 2007 9:23 PM
31

Dan, that was wonderfully worded. Is it going to be reprinted elsewhere? I'd like to be able to bookmark it without bookmarking the entire blog.

Posted by ShifterCat | June 2, 2007 10:48 PM
32


This is partially why the public schools aren't so hot in Seattle; parents are abandoning them.

Posted by wah | June 3, 2007 1:23 AM
33

To Ann,

What's stopping you from going to a lawyer and drawing up papers to give your boyfriend power of attorney? make him next-of-kin? Appoint him as your medical proxy?

Nothing.

These are things that gay people who would rather get married have to do. Marriage is a shorthand for these, and many more, rights AND OBLIGATIONS. If you don't like the whole deal go to a lawyer and get something less. There is the question of if it will be honored in the breach, but that's something that gay people have to live with too.

Marriage is the one contract you can't negotiate.

I have the whole deal and I like it. I want to keep marriage for all (I live in MA), and bring it to the rest of this country. I have little patience with people granting, or craving, half-measures.

Posted by A different Anne | June 3, 2007 5:57 AM
34

Dan-

(1) Sooner or later you're going to be...

Sen. (D) Dan Savage (WA)

(..unless of course your real name isn't Dan Savage. Then I just look stupid.)

(2) Speaking as a parent w/ kids in public schools, *fuck* anyone telling you where you should put your kids. The one absolute truism about parenting is that nobody knows your kids like you do. If you think private school is best for you kids- for WHATEVER reason- than it is.

(3) I don't know anything about "Greg & Amiira Behrendt, but their picture made made me want to hate them. Then their description- Zesty Co-Authors, Life Stylists, and Married Couple- made me totally hate them. The way Churchill hated Nazis.

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35

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36

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