Comments on Save the Parking Lots!
Yes, eliminating all of the parking will force people to abandon their cars, thus reviving the neighborhood, reversing global warming, and curing cancer!
I'm confused. Are you asking people to argue in favor of keeping the Key Bank building on the grounds that... what? We played there when we were children?
I kind of miss the big ugly parking lot that used to be where the Safeway is now (the parking lot and the store switched places when they put in the new building)...
I think a strip club would look really nice there.
Aren't you people anti-development (see, e.g., the comments made when Cha Cha announced it would have to relocate)? You want the ugly Key Bank building and parking replaced, but you don't want the equally ugly, low-slung, slum on Pine torn down because you like Cha Cha?
I think the real reason the restaurant space you describe can't hold a tenant is because the rent is rumored to be $5K or $6K/month. How can a new venture overcome that kind of rent?
But this encroaches on the already diminished habitat of the Capitol Hill Street Drunk :( Where will they go when all the empty parking lots are gone?!
I live over on Crown Hill. Many times I've suggested going to restaurants on 15th...or Broadway...and we end up driving around a few blocks before giving up and going some place where there's actually a place to park nearby (like the International District.)
Had there been available parking, maybe I wouldn't have wasted so much gas looking for parking...and maybe I'd actually patronize those businesses more often rather than rejecting them early in the "where are we going to eat?" debate because of the hassle of actually getting there.
I can certainly oppose this development--not every block needs a Subway restaurant...but every block with a business needs some place reasonably close by for those not living in that neighborhood to park.
pg
The building should be ten stories, not four! Oh well. Too bad the lightrail won't have a stop on 15th.
I like ugly old banks.
Parking is easy in the I.D.?!?!?!?
Really?
Good Riddance to that eyesore....though the truly awful interior is actually worse, it should maybe be installed in a museum devoted to ugly 70's commercial interiors...it even smells like the 70's in there...
i'm also hoping they 'accidentally' take out the monstrous new Subway sign...i can't see how that motherfucking eyesore is up to code...it's way too big for the site and way too bright...i'm thinking of buying somme bee-bee's for my gun....
This change is a good thing.
Dan, I don't think anyone would argue with you here, at least not in Capitol Hill.
Parking lots aren't just ugly, they're magnets for crime.
pgrevy @ 6,
There's always tons of free parking on 17th Ave East north of East John St. Quick hop, skip and jump to 15th or Broadway.
Parking lots aren’t just ugly, they’re magnets for cars and the moral degenerates that drive them. Sidewalks are magnets for crime, and must be abolished. Streets are magnets for cars, and must be abolished.
#6: There are ways to create parking for small businesses and restaurants other than wide, flat parking lots like this. For example the Safeway on 15th used to have a horrible lot that faced the main drag; now the lot is behind the building. Much better.
I should also mention that often times, places like Capitol Hill and the U-District (and the ID) may have no FREE parking, but they have parking. For example, I've parked in the lot behind the Bank of America on Broadway many times on a Saturday night, no problem.
I pay because I'd rather have the great atmosphere of Capitol Hill than visiting almost any other car-oriented neighborhood. (Note: I know Capitol Hill's gritty nature isn't for everyone, but I like it there.)
Something is fishy about this project.
They have submitted their building permit in 2006
http://web1.seattle.gov/DPD/permitstatus/Project.aspx?id=6090822
But not their MUP (hence no big white sign like the ManRay has attached to it right now)
That's the wrong order for things.
It's a Pryde+Johnson development. Want to call them for comment, Dan? Or call David Winans at GGLO Architects? (Thank GAWD it is GGLO and not WeberThompson or Driscoll)
I mean an OCCASIONAL Driscoll or WeberThompson is fine, but soon everything is going to look the same if these developers don't spread the wealth.
If this actually happens, it will be a Pryde+Johnson development. So far, though, Key Bank still owns the lot according to the recorder's office. Pryde has not put its money down to go further on this deal. This hubby-wife team has been doing a bunch of projects around town, trying to build "green." One of theirs is called "Hjarta" for the Ballard crowd, and those weren't selling well at all according to Puget Sound Business Journal's February article "Condo Shoppers Lie Low." Assuming they get income from projects already underway, plus financing to proceed, it will still be awhile before anything happens in this space. DPD shows no activity since they kicked a bunch of designs back to the developer to get fixed last year. Since they're smart, Pryde's probably waiting to see if the market gets better before committing.
The proposed architects are GGLO, who have done some OK work around town on multi-family. The Alcyone in Allentown, the Cabrini senior housing apartments...
Hmm...it also mentions that they plan on doing a drive-thru for the bank. From what I understand from the Walgreen's development on 15th, drive-thrus are not allowed in this zone. (Note: From what I understand, Walgreen's would have built an illegal drive-thru had the neighbors not complained.)
Was this a new land use sign that you saw? That project was announced almost two years ago and has gone nowhere fast. Don't recall any news or movement on that project this last year. Yes, that building is an ugly box and inside oh so tacky.
I live in the neighborhood and shop on 15th and would love to see the Keybank building and the parking lot replaced with a building that interfaces with the neighborhood. It should also provide underground parking and small-medium sized storefronts with rental housing above. Like the Kidd Valley project one block to the south.
My friends live in the apartment building behind that parking lot. It's nice to be able to sit and people-watch 15th Ave from their deck. One man's boring parking lot is another's opportunistic vista.
#9--I've never had a problem finding parking in a lot across the street from Shanghai Garden. On the rare occasions I can't find street parking within a block, I could go there and pay $5.
Of course, it's probably going to be turned into a mixed-use building any day now. Heaven knows that the ID needs a Subway.
And yes, it should say something that the ID is easier to find parking in than Capitol Hill.
Of course, with the elimination of parking comes the extortion of those parking lots that remain...
Anytime someone asked me what it would take to revive Broadway, I always had three suggestions.
1) Increase the diversity of stores that people might actually want to shop at (not every store front can be a coffee shop or a Thai restaurant.)
2) Increase late night entertainment options. (Although Cafe Lagoon was probably not the right way to go there...)
3) Offer easy in, easy out, free parking. Maybe a quarter of a block, three levels (one underground, one at ground, one elevated)--make it look "neighborhood-y"--light it and patrol it... It'd pay for itself quickly.
The fact is...people don't really want Broadway revived. They want a cool little enclave for themselves.
Without parking, that's exactly what you'll get. Hope you can support these places on your own.
pg
Dig up the asphalt, plant some grass and trees and make it a park.
Alycone in Allentown is hidious, and the name "South Lake Union" is also hideous. I actually think that "allentown is kind of cool" haha.
Oh sad car. Cheer up.
#5/21: Sorry to be crass, but fuck you for being too lazy to "find parking".
I lived on the Hill for a long time and now get up there as much as I can. Sure, it's often a pain to find parking right on Broadway or 15th, but would it kill you to walk (the horror!) an extra 2 blocks to get to the place you want to eat?
You'll drive to the ID and pay for parking there because you're too lazy to find a spot on the Hill?
Your last comment is right, I'd love to have a place that is missing you and anyone else with the same attitude.
Three cheers and a hearty prayer for the disposal of this egregious parking lot and financial institution.
It is about time, however, for this neighborhood to built itself a real Black/African American/New Negro Spritual Center. Are we ready for this? YES!
You know, this parking lot would make a great Trolley Barn. Or we could store biodiesel busses there.
Oh, and @19 - anyone else notice they're finally building at N 40th and Stone Way N ... how many years did that take? I can't even remember when that was a functional Safeway store ...
Will@28, what are they building there?
#25: Blow me. I live on the side streets near 15th, and it pisses me off to see gas-guzzlers trolling for spots up and down the street. Let them go to the Central District if they want to. I bet they have cruddy restaurants there, too.
#30: I'm not the asshole who's trolling for a spot on your street man, I ride my bike up from the Greenlake/Phinney area more often than not. That's one of the reasons I get pissed when people say they'll drive an extra couple of miles to get dinner because they're too lazy to find a parking spot.
Leaving aside the precious aesthetics of the existing building, what about the bank and the people who use it? Where are they supposed to go? I know it's really important that you have a lovely view from your cocktail lounge, but ordinary services for ordinary people are exactly the kind of thing that's disappearing from a lot of places in this city. Another Subway isn't going to replace it.
QFC is going in the spot on Stone Way and 40th (the old Safeway that's been sitting derelict for years).
From what I understand, the Fremont Neighborhood Council and other neighbors fought it hard because they didn't want "traffic" there. Unbelievable! Like a derelict building is a good option.
33 weak! QFC sucks.
I'm one of those knee-jerk anti-development folks, and the Key Bank spot is one that I don't object to being developed - particularly to a 4-story building instead of a 6-story one (I presume the Stanger hasn't successfully lobbied to raise the height restrictions on 15th yet?). I'm sure it'll be a butt-ugly building, but at least it won't be displacing something attractive.
But I have to laugh at the ass-backwards approach in this post. A development is needed so that a restaurant can thrive in the old Hopscotch spot? That's funny.
Hopscotch was successful in that location for several years. Nothing since then has worked out. You're right - it's not the space. The space inside is really cute. The places have gone in there since have been devoid of personality and/or good food. I think I've tried every one of them (although a few were open so briefly I might have missed it), and none have made me want to come back. I really doubt that a fugly monolith across the street would have increased the allure.
Transit Man @ 23 -- But there already is an Allentown. Odd little nook. Not easy to get to -- an island unto itself, surrounded by a terraced moat comprised of the Duwamish, I-5, 599, and that gigantic truck & rail yard (talk about parking lots! Dat dere's a biggie.). "South Lake Union" will have to stand.
Any Slogholes live down in Allentown?
#34 What did you expect a Whole Foods? At least it's a market. The QFC on 45th sucks and the Safeway in Ballard is to far for me to go to by bus.
@33, 34 - no, I think we Fremonsters wanted a Safeway. We already have a QFC at 45th and Wallingford, just a few blocks away, we don't have any nearby Safeways.
Plus, it's multi-modal - with apartments on top. Wise use and all that.
uh, fnarf, who said the bank was going anywhere? unless that branch is scheduled to close 'cause its not profitable enough, its highly likely that the ground floor of any new construction is going to be a Key Bank...
though personally, i'd love to see a movie theatre, or a liquor store (yeah, i'm sometimes too lazy to want to walk down to 12th and Pine)or a cool home furnishings store or art gallery/performance space move onto 15th...
signed,
a 17th Street kinda guy
#25.--I don't mind two blocks... I'm talking about there being NO PARKING.
You seem to be as angry at me for trolling streets looking for the non-existent parking as you are for me to drive some place where I CAN park and dine.
Evidently this world is only for you?
(And, #12--I USED to be able to find lots of parking on 17th...now, even that's hit or miss, and more often, lately, it's been miss. A good tip, though...just not as good of a tip as it used to be.)
All I'm saying is that elimination of parking lots is not automatically some sort of a triumphant victory. Take away parking spots and you make cars drive more and you reduce the customer base radius for some of your favorite shops and restaurants.
...just because you think that a parking lot is ugly? Well, make a less ugly parking lot and everybody wins, right?
Put up another mixed use building--now you've got MORE people and MORE cars and less parking. That's great if you live there and you've got a place to park...but it effectively shuts you off from welcoming friends or potential customers to your neighborhood.
If an enclave is what you want, that's what you'll get.
And there ARE PLENTY of great restaurants in other parts of town where it isn't as difficult to find parking nearby.
pg
Hell, how uninformed can you maricons at the Stranger be? There's no limit, so far.
The developer wants an upzone of the lot on Malden, which explains the long process (it has to approved by the city council). He wants a bank drive-through next to a pedestrian zone (how green is that, pendejos?). He wants all the traffic to enter on Malden, just south of an intersection that has a very high number of collisions (somehow, though, the DPD rep didn't have anything prepared to say about traffic when she testified about the upzone to the Hearing Examiner).
The bank will return to the first floor. The bank also wants a .....wait for it, pendejos.....coffee place on the first floor, because its market research geniuses have apparently discovered that its customers like coffee. Coffee comes to 15th. Could anything be more useful? Drink up, maricons.
Idiotic locals at the design review meeting said that 15th to the north (e.g., Tilden to WaxOn) was their idea of a pleasant pedestrian environment, and that 15th to the south (Group Health, Safeway) was a relative dead zone. DPD's summary of the design review stated that 15th to the south was the model favored by the public. That's so cool, that DPD is not listening to the neighborhood types. Dan, you important maricon, maybe you have their ear, no?
#38 The QFC in Wallingford is way to small and does not have adequate shelf space.
A manager told me that once the one on Stone Way is built, the one on 45th, along with the Bartell's will be torn down to make way for another supermarket/condo development). Considering how long it has taken to just dig a hole in the ground at Stone Way and 40th, I suspect the QFC on 45th will be closed for a couple years.
Personally I don't care if it is a QFC, a Safeway, or a Whole Foods as long as they have a decent deli and have a good meat and produce sections. Had Larry's not gone out of business I might have hoped for one of those.
They are going to tear down the Food Giant QFC? Then are they going to take away the (ex-)Food Giant, now "Wallingford" sign on the front too? There was a big fuss about saving that landmark sign when the QFC went in.
FinishTag @16: Didn't Burkheimer hire Driscoll to do his block on Broadway (old QFC)? That's a lotta Driscoll.
#25: Actually, it's #30 who's pissed at you for trolling on his street. I'm pissed at you because I think you're lazy. I usually ride my bike to the Hill (and before you say it's too far for you, it only takes about 10 minutes for me to ride to your neighborhood from my house), however, sometimes I have to drive and I have NEVER found "NO PARKING". I'd like to think that it's because I'm a genius and better at finding parking than you but it's probably more about me not minding a little walk.
I think it's funny that you'd think I feel the world is only for me when you're the lazy fucker complaining about it being SO HARD to find a parking spot.
I'm guessing you voted YES/YES on the viaduct?
The QFC on 45th is perfectly adequate. Shelf space for what, more microwaveable food? Meat counter, cheese counter, vegetable aisle, I'm all set. Their wine section blows massive chunks (worst in Seattle) but who cares, the nice wine shop is fifteen paces away. If they close it I'm going to be very sad indeed -- and I will miss the sign, even the bastardized WALLINGFORD sign.
#45--First of, as far as my vote on the recent transportation issues goes...I'm of the mindset that I ALREADY voted for representation at the local and state levels, so I resent paying them and then having them shirk their responsibilities and make us pay for a non-binding double referendum vote between shitty option A and shitty option B.
I was not in favor of the half-assed tunnel offered by option A. I'm not against a tunnel (as long as it can be justified in an earthquake-liquification zone)--but I'm against a half-assed tunnel.
Option B didn't bother me. The only argument that I heard about being against a rebuilt viaduct was that "it would be ugly." That argument, which is the same argument used against parking lots, holds no water with me.
That said, I'm not entirely against the surface/transit option...and I liked the idea of "seeing what happens" by eliminating the viaduct until I saw that the plans for rebuilding the viaduct somehow managed to keep the viaduct open during its construction. The key with surface/transit is in the "transit" part of things. We're never going to get a subway system, we're never going to get a monorail and I don't believe in bus rapid transit...so, there's no such thing as surface/transit--it'll just be surface, and I envision that'll be a complete nightmare.
I didn't bother voting in that bullshit referendum--it's obvious that they're going to do whatever they were going to do anyway...or, as it stands, to NOT do whatever they weren't going to do anyway. Hopefully someone will step up and earn what we're paying them and make a fucking decision...
I will say that I voted for the monorail, every single time. It would have been perfect for me. I'd live near it...and lots of the places I love to go would have been on its route. I understand why people voted with their wallet when the screwy financing came to light--but I wish the people who represent me wouldn't have put up every roadblock to the benefits of elevated transit, even though the actual columns and track would have been ugly.
As far as you repeatedly calling me lazy--whatever. So, you still ride a bicycle everywhere? Again, whatever. That works for you...fine.
I remember when it worked for me, too--it was in Minneapolis in 1983-1984. I rode my bicycle everywhere. Yep--never a problem parking then!
Eventually, however, you want to get places faster...less sweaty...in real clothes...and with someone else. You want to go places too far for you to go on your bike. You want to stay later than it might be safe to stay if you have to get home on your bike.
And if there's somewhere I want to go, I'm willing to walk a reasonable distance to get there from where I can find parking (for my subcompact, fuel efficient car.)
If I can't find parking a reasonable distance away--I'll go somewhere else (rather than to waste more time and fuel trolling around and around), and I'll remember that it was difficult to find parking the next time a decision has to be made on where to eat.
...and I can't imagine that I'm unique in that process. Readily available parking is a key in any business' success equation. What you're saying is--you don't care if others can patronize a business as long as you can on your bike. I'm saying, there's a chance that more people could patronize a business if they knew there was some place to park.
So, laugh all you want...you're still the one who thinks the world should be only for you.
Oh, and for all of your needless insults to me here--fuck you. Happy?
pg
I am. Thanks for taking the time to explain yourself, I agree with a lot of what you say.
As far as the world being for me, you can feel that way but from my perspective it's more selfish to be driving around extra just to avoid a walk of a few blocks.
@47 "We're never going to get a subway system". There will be 5 subway stations in the city within a year and a half, and four more will be built within 10 years. So that's something, though not much.
But saying "we won't" is admitting defeat.
If this was Broadway, I would argue that the parking needs to be replaced as part of any new development. However, 15th is more of a neighborhood business district, smaller and more low key than Broadway, the Ave, Market, California, etc. That being the case, most of the customers for these businesses are from the surrounding residential blocks and fewer parking spaces can easily be justified. If you don't live in the area and don't want to struggle for parking, do business somewhere closer to home. It's better for the environment and traffic anyway.
Raul @41, you sound like the man with the answers. Thanks for sharing.
As for parking on 15th, that's what the QFC parking lot is for. Thanks QFC!
#48--For the third time, I'm not averse to walking a few blocks anywhere. I'm talking about there being NO PARKING TO BE FOUND.
Two block radius, three blocks, four blocks, five blocks, six blocks...no parking?
That's a lot of wasted time and gas...and that's when I go to plan B.
And the problem isn't so much THAT night...what's ONE meal, right? No, it's the NEXT time, when the thought "it's difficult to find parking there" leads me to not even consider that restaurant, much less going to look... THAT is when it hurts a business. And worse, that experience gets spread to friends and co-workers...
And, #50--you're absolutely right...there are some neighborhoods where it is nearly impossible for people from outside of the area to enjoy their restaurants and shops... If those restaurants and shops can survive on neighborhood business, then hooray--the enclave is self-sustaining.
Remember, this whole thread is based on comments about "why restaurant/bars have failed in this particular 15th St. location" and "wouldn't the elimination of this parking lot help a business succeed in this location"--I simply believe that the elimination of a parking lot is not going to help a business succeed.
When I lived on Capitol Hill, I went to Hopscotch my fair share of times... Nice place. I agree with Dan that the sunlight was an issue--but I saw it more of an issue with interior design, not a damnedable parking lot. (And, as a former Orpheum employee--EVERY business on Capitol Hill with a Western frontage had to deal with the sun.)
There are lots of places that I'd go to more often if the parking wasn't an issue. So, if places like Jamjuree and Palermo and Coastal Kitchen can survive without my business--well, that's my loss.
If they can't--well, that's my loss, too...isn't it?
pg
PS--I figure The Canterbury (which was one of my first favorite places in Seattle when I moved here in 1992) can survive a nuclear blast if it survived the smoking ban...
I wish good luck to y'all in this situation; hope the outcome is beneficial to everyone.
Gotta say, tho, that is one butt-ugly building.
I hope they put in a bar, a coffee shop and a health store when this new building is finished. Maybe Deano's could relocate there???
The “NO PARKING” on 15th argument doesn’t hold water. I live on 15th a block from the retail strip and there is ALWAYS parking available on the street. I know because I often park there. I have lived there for quite some time and I have NEVER had to drive around the block to find a spot to park or even drive more than 2 blocks. I have actually commented numerous times how surprising I find it that there is so much street parking available.
And as far as the replacement for the KeyBank – it is long overdue. There is a huge gap in the streetscape that needs to be filled and this will do it. I also agree that it will help the businesses across the street. Bars only tend to work when they are clustered in a neighborhood rather than seeming like they are at the outskirts of it.
Hey Jeff,
Give me your address and I'll park right in front of your house. I've been jonesing for Jamjuree for months now.
...because the last few times I've tried to go there...there's been no parking anywhere close to it.
I don't live there...so, I can only tell you what I experience when I've made the trek up there. What I've experienced has been frustrating, and I can't imagine that the elimination of a parking lot and increased population and business density alleviates what makes me frustrated.
pg
PS--When I lived on Capitol Hill and worked at Orpheum, I poo-poohed the comments of friends who didn't shop there because they couldn't park nearby. When I moved off the hill and tried to come back, I found it much more frustrating...and I began to see what my friends had been talking about.
In the end, certain Seattle neighborhoods remind me of Dr. Frank N. Furter...
"I didn't make him for you."
Message received, loud and clear.
There's bus service to Capitol Hill. If you leave by 12:30 or 1AM, you shouldn't have much problem getting home.
Seattle's bus system is a joke. It's awful. And I've lived in towns where public transportation IS a viable option--Seattle is not currently, nor likely to be, one of them.
And this isn't a "oh, poor pg...he can't eat on 15th Avenue...how can we find a way for him to get to 15th Avenue to eat?" situation.
I've got a perfectly convenient conveyance to get me exactly where I want to go whenever I want to go there.
I've just had difficulty parking near the restaurants on 15th. If Jeff can help with that, cool.
Hell, I'd get my old Italjet scooter back in working order before I'd depend on Metro to get me where I wanted to go and back.
pg
"I've got a perfectly convenient conveyance to get me exactly where I want to go whenever I want to go there."
It's not clear you know where you're going.
Finding parking anywhere on the Hill is as easy as finding parking at Belltown at Happy Hour.
Hello everyone, wanna be part of some kind of community, possible here? anyone here?
Someone should build a Kid Valley there since the other one got torn down. I want some damn deep fried mushrooms.
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