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1

R Place used to give my girlfriend serious stink eye when she'd come in with me, but at least they let her in.

What was I doing at R Place? It used to be the only bar on Pike/Pine with decent pool tables.

Posted by Sean | May 31, 2007 7:31 AM
2

....did you say they have a ladies night? .....well .... of course 70 per cent of the Strangers's ad revenues comes from real breeder bars and ent. venues .....

Posted by freddy the wise farmer boy | May 31, 2007 7:46 AM
3

@1

I know! And now it only has one! And we have to write our name on a chalkboard to use it! With chalk that never fucking works! Argh!

Posted by Mr. Poe | May 31, 2007 8:13 AM
4

The breeders have thousands of bars they can go to. Stay out of ours.

And before the inevitable flood of "Shame on you Chris! This is 2007, everyone should be welcome." Remember this: If I take my husband into a straight bar and give him a kiss, what do you thik the reaction will be?

Posted by Christopher | May 31, 2007 8:46 AM
5

epater le bourgousie, snore.

Posted by maxsolomon | May 31, 2007 9:11 AM
6

That's exactly the place I'd take my mom or dad... if I wanted them to die.

Posted by monkey | May 31, 2007 9:12 AM
7

If I take my husband into a straight bar and give him a kiss, what do you thik the reaction will be?

It will be a non-event in most places. I do it all the time. And I live in the sticks. You underestimate the average straight person. Be a man.

Eugene Volokh just posted about a similar issue: using antidiscrimination laws to challenge gay bars that exclude straights for discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

These kinds of bans imposed by gay bars on straights or women are silly, counterproductive, and, more importantly, completely unnecessary. There are very few straights or women who ever want to go to the kind of sleazy gay bar that is most concerned about keeping straights and women out. So, banning straights or women becomes a draconian and offensive rule that doesn't even address a real problem.

Posted by Joseph Hovsep | May 31, 2007 9:16 AM
8

Shame on you, Chris. ;-)

I see this as a disturbing trend (following on the heals of yesterday's SLOG post about the no-heteros-allowed Australian hotel).

I totally get the desire for us to have a place where we feel safe from the Jerry Falwells of the world, where we don't have to feel like pariahs if we kiss a boy.

But it is wrong and even unhealthy to completely cut ourselves off from the entire heterosexual universe. Yes, I completely agree that if you went into the average straight bar and started kissing your boyfriend, you'd likely get a bad reaction. But I suspect in Seattle you'd get at least a few catcalls of encouragement too. Not all straight people are ass holes.

If the point is to feel safe being who you are, then a straight person in a gay bar should not impede that. I would assume that if Sean (above) is comfortable going to R Place with his girlfriend to shoot pool, they are not going to be offended by the sight of gay men hitting on each other and kissing. If Audrey and her dad are comfortable walking into a gay leather bar in Montreal, I doubt they are offended at the sight of gay men kissing either (or even seeing gay porn videos on multiple monitors, apparently).

Straight people who are comfortable in an intensely gay setting are not our enemy. They are our friends. Unless we want to cut ourselves off from the rest of the world, I, for one, want to encourage this kind of behavior from straight people, not prevent it.

We will never achieve acceptance and equality by walling ourselves off from heterosexuals. We need to interact with them. They need to see us kissing, and get used to it, and accept it as a normal aspect of human behavior. Only when enough of them get used to it will we achieve any real equality.

[/sermon]

Posted by SDA in SEA | May 31, 2007 9:28 AM
9

@Chris

What if straights like to hang out with their gay friends? Should they not be allowed to kick it? I don't care if you hump your husband in front of me, I have to watch straight people dry humping (or really humping...) at dance clubs all the time. You're just people to me, I don't care.

And I think one of the great things about Capitol Hill in Seattle is that all types of people get to mingle, on the streets, in the clubes, at the restaurants. I don't know if you live in Seattle, but that type of mixing is what I look for in a place that I live.


But I guess I am just a dumb breeder?

Posted by Monique | May 31, 2007 9:32 AM
10

You're not, Monigue.

Posted by Dan Savage | May 31, 2007 9:40 AM
11

Why would someone want to bring daddy there? Well, I once had a similar experience with a friend of mine. We are both very straight, went to Montreal to have some fun. Montreal's center is metro station Berri-UQAM. To the east, you have some decent straight bar scene, to the west, you're going into the gay village. For some reason, the west looks more appealing, but you have to walk a lot to find a decent bar, and then you're in the village.
It was very hot that day, and after a good walk through the village, we really needed a place to drink. We didn't really want to go to a gay bar, in fact we had been trying to walk through the village, but it spreads on a very long run. We stopped at a café, but the owner said he was just moving in and had nothing to server (he was), and he refered us to the Black Eagle, allegedly a nice place for straight guys.
Well, there was drawings of bulky men in leather on the wall, and gay porn in the tvs. We sat in the terrasse, and guys were checking our ass big time. We drank fast.

Posted by Mokawi | May 31, 2007 9:42 AM
12

Oh, and it's trendy amongst straights in Montreal to hang out in the village. It says "I'm open-minded". Exactly Andrey's type, when you think of it.

Posted by Mokawi | May 31, 2007 9:45 AM
13

Because the breeders are comfy invading our spaces....then, of course, we must be happy too. Can't offend the nice breeders.

I am not out at work, bad family stuff ... I love VERY gay bars, for men.

Want some names of straight places I can kiss my lover, he is about 25 years younger than me, and ravishingly good looking. Straight women swoon.

Will give it a try with a bit of crotch rubbing thrown in for added effect.

Posted by Grunfeld | May 31, 2007 9:50 AM
14

@8,@9 - I don't see how it's a "shutting out", because the policy isn't and won't be universal. Many gay/lesbian bars would never adopt a blanket no-straights or no-(insert non-preferred gender of clientele) policy, precisely because gays hang out with straights too. Why should it be that big a deal if a few of them do?

Posted by tsm | May 31, 2007 10:08 AM
15

If you want to keep Breeders out I suggest you open a private, members-only club and not a bar that is supposedly open to the public.

Posted by elswinger | May 31, 2007 10:27 AM
16

@7
Wow.
You must live in some very progressive "sticks".

Come on out to rural Wisconsin/Iowa. I'm pretty sure you could help me enlighten the locals. Heck, maybe one of the folks around here who thought the kiss was a non-issue could explain to me how the word "Faggot" magically appeared on the side of my storage shed.

I go to gay bars for a safe/fun space for a night out, not to answer dumbass questions from a "curious" straight chick or worry if some drunk fratboy gets offended cause he's getting eyeballed.

Sorry pal: The breeders need to stay out of our bars.

Posted by Christopher | May 31, 2007 10:30 AM
17

I think it's wrong to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender, but at the same time, I kinda sympathize. The arrival of straight girls en masse is the death knell of a gay bar. Pretty soon straight boys will follow them to hit on them, and suddenly, you're dancing and some fucking frat boy calls you a faggot.

Posted by Gitai | May 31, 2007 10:30 AM
18

@ 17

For the win.

For reference see The Minneapolis Eagle on Friday during 3 for 1 drinks.

Posted by Christopher | May 31, 2007 10:33 AM
19

Christopher - you live in rural Iowa/Wisconsin? That explains your hostility. You need to check out better gay bars, the kind that can only be found in real cities.

Posted by Matt from Denver | May 31, 2007 10:37 AM
20

I'm a straight girl, and I used to practically live at R Place. No one there has EVER given me a sideways look. On occasion my gay friends want to go to The Cuff - a leather daddy bar with beefy gay porn on the TV screens - and I've always been treated with courtesy there, despite not really fitting in. A no girls/no straights rule doesn't make much sense at all - a lot of gay guys are friends with girls, and a lot of "straight" guys are bi-curious, or on their way to being gay. Exclude girls and straights from a members-only gay sex club? Sure! But from a "public" bar with a regular old liquor license? Discrimination can go the other way, that doesn't make it any less wrong.

Posted by Aislinn | May 31, 2007 10:42 AM
21

Wow. Christopher, you have problems.

"Sorry pal: The breeders need to stay out of our bars."

How is that different from:
"Sorry pal: The blacks need to stay out of our bars."

I realize that Christopher doesn't speak for all gay people, but if that's your attitude, why should straight people like me continue to help fight for things like gay marriage on the basis of fairness and equal access? Isn't it hypocritical to ask for equal rights but to insist upon the right to discriminate? Oh, but you're oppressed, so it's okay.

If you want to hang out with ONLY gay people, invite them to your house. Or move away from rural fucking Wisconsin/Iowa.

Posted by sleestak | May 31, 2007 10:51 AM
22

My story that explains why I hate straight people in gay bars:

At Manray once, a 21-year-old birthday girl came up to me (on a dare from her queeny friends) and asked me to dance. If she'd thought I was cute, that would be fine, but she was clearly scared or nervous. She probably had never spoken to a real live lesbian before. I'm 5'10" and have broad shoulders, but I didn't realize I was that scary looking. Thanks, gay boy-friends for promoting that scene. I was nice to her, in spite of the(probable) insult. It was her birthday, and she's very young.

I'm not saying we should discriminate, but I reserve the right to bitch about fag hags, bi-curious, and breeders crowding the dance floor.

Posted by Tiz | May 31, 2007 10:56 AM
23

umm wow. In a sense, like to think of gay people as more socially evolved. You'd think that they'd be all about acceptance in a society that isn't completely ok with their lifestyle. The comments I'm seeing Chris leave are really discouraging to me because it feels like we've taken a step backward socially. I don't wanna write a book here, so I'll just leave it at that.

Posted by shelbis | May 31, 2007 11:04 AM
24

@16,

I'm sorry you live in a place that hates you for who you are - that sucks. Move if you can at all afford it.

But realize that the breeders that voluntarily come to gay bars are not your enemy, and they're not the ones who wrote "faggot" on your storage shed.

And realize too, like was said already, that if you want the right to discriminate against women, or straights, or ANYONE BASED ON THE WAY THEY WERE BORN - then you're endorsing discrimination against gays, too.

Posted by Litvinenko | May 31, 2007 11:11 AM
25

Christopher,

No doubt there are gay-haters out there who use the word "faggot" and give nasty looks and occassionally engage in vandalism or violence. They are a minority and most straight people--even in the "unenlightened" sticks--condemn that behavior when they see it.

Gay people can choose how we react to antigay prejudice. We can hole ourselves up in special exclusive gay-only places and be resentful and afraid of all straight people. Or we can display some self-pride and act the way we'd like to be treated. I prefer the latter.

If someone defaces your property or threatens you, call the police. Don't pretend the only way to deal is to hide away from all straight people.

I go to gay bars for a safe/fun space for a night out, not to answer dumbass questions from a "curious" straight chick or worry if some drunk fratboy gets offended cause he's getting eyeballed.

This sounds so cliche I don't believe its based on real life experience. If you don't want to answer questions from a random straight woman, then don't talk to her. Since when do you have to talk to everyone who approaches you in the bar? And if some straight "fratguy" shows up in a gay bar, I don't see how he would get offended at getting hit on. But if some guy does react badly, then throw the dude out of the bar for his behavior, don't ban him from ever coming in on the basis of his sexual orientation.

Posted by Joseph Hovsep | May 31, 2007 11:16 AM
26

while you may not want X group that is different from you at a bar, enacting a policy is a step beyond feeling unwelcome.

while gays might feel unwelcome kissing their partners at a straight club, i'd like to see instutional policy that bans it. and if there is a ban, then i'd like to fight it.

you can complain all you want about breeders crowding the floor, etc etc but the moment you advocate an policy about it, well then you're simply being ridiculous.

Posted by Bellevue Ave | May 31, 2007 11:17 AM
27

@22: If the bi-curious don't belong there, where are they supposed to go to explore their curiosity?

While your story sucks (if the girl was indeed making fun of you), I guarantee you that millions of straight people have also been asked to dance on a dare. Your experience had much less to do with sexuality than it had to do with shallow people. Should all shallow people be banned from bars you frequent, as well? It's too bad their money spends just as well as everyone else's.

Posted by Aislinn | May 31, 2007 11:22 AM
28

I remember my girlfriend and I being invited to meet a lesbian friend of hers at a lesbian club. When we tried to get in the woman at the door kept asking us over and over again if we were "breeders." She had a half-smile on her face, but I had no clue what she meant by "breeders." I had never gotten that kind of response when going to any of the gay clubs in town ...

She let us in, BTW. But I have to admit--as a non-reproducing het guy--that if I never get called a "breeder" again that will be just fine with me.

Posted by abracapocus | May 31, 2007 11:29 AM
29

I am a straight girl who has spent WAY more time at gay bars then straight bars. When I am there, I am very aware of/ respect of the fact that I am a "guest" so to speak. When I bring a boyfriend, I babysit him. We don't make-out on the dance floor ect ( I wouldn't do this in a straight bar but you get the point). I enjoy gay bars not becuase they are "gay bars" but because that is where my friends are. I would prefer if I don't get attacked for that. Honestly, Christopher, I am on your side. Now, can I order a beer at your bar?

Posted by Katie | May 31, 2007 11:30 AM
30

Institutionalizing comfort zones is never a good idea. And last I heard, separate but equal wasn't the path we want our country to take!
Second, Audrey... get a grip. The best way to get your dad's attention is not to shock him.

Posted by Katelyn | May 31, 2007 12:01 PM
31

Bars are one thing, but what about our day-to-day lives? I would feel more comfortable if Metro would designate a "gay only" section on the back of the bus.

Posted by 3/5ths | May 31, 2007 12:38 PM
32

so why are hot chicks only allowed to serve food at hooters? that reflects badly on society as a whole, but they still exist.

Posted by brad | May 31, 2007 2:04 PM
33

@22 It sounds like you might have been projecting a bit much. Even if it went down the way you say it did, that's some pretty mild shit to get hateful about.

And it seems that your trouble comes not from the nervous straight girl but from her queeny friends. So really, you want to kick the faggots out, don't you.


When I was bartending in Denver, a group of us would get off work and head to a couple of gay bars for drinks afterwards. Half of our crew was gay, it would have sucked if we had to split up at the end of work because we weren't "allowed" in "their" bars.

Posted by PdxRitchie | May 31, 2007 2:11 PM
34

Brad @ 32, have you ever been to Hooters? The servers have fake tans, horrible hair and makeup, and one of the least flattering outfits anyone has ever inflicted on the female gender. Nary a "hot chick" to be seen.

Posted by Matt from Denver | May 31, 2007 2:12 PM
35

This is in Canada.

Women have rights there, in the Canadian Constitution, unlike here.

Posted by Will in Seattle | May 31, 2007 2:19 PM
36

@27: Bi curious people should meet online, like I did when I was bi curious. Kidding, but it did work for me. I am actually still bisexual, and what irritates me is the straight chicks who dance or make out with me or each other, for the primary purpose of turning on their boyfriends (or maybe to feel a little edgy?). It's false advertising, damnit!

@33: No, not trying to kick the faggots out of Manray. The condo developers did that for me :)

It was just a story, in which I may have been oversensitive (it was a year ago, I don't remember it perfectly). I don't think heteros should be banned from gay bars. I only reserve the right to complain to my friends, and maybe make fun of them a little.

Posted by Tiz | May 31, 2007 4:24 PM
37


Please don't let one 21-year-old ditz or some asshole with a magic marker get you unglued or transform your world view. For every insecure jerk, there's a regular person who just wants to have a nice time at night AND who doesn't want to change you.

Yes, it's completely jarring when one is harassed. It comes with territory of being anything but a straight white male in his 50s or 60s, which is most of us. Move on.

In other news, why just have a sign on the door of your bar saying "No Stag Parties" or "No Hen Nights" or whatever they're called. It's not unheard of.

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38

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40

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