See? This is why I started to read your column, so many years ago. I wish more people thought like this.

Thanks for bringing this up, Dan.

This fantasy that men are the only ones who cheat has to be destroyed. I've known many women who cheat on their spouses, have even been propositioned by a few. And, I've had a couple of women cheat on me, while I've never cheated on a woman.

I've grown weary of the "men are bad" mantra.

That said, dishonesty should never be excused. If there are grounds for adultery, then an adult should be able to honestly state as much to their partner. If you no longer intend to be faithful, then be adult enough to be upfront about it.

"Randy tells the man that he was at fault for being dishonest—he needed to tell the wife that he would be going elsewhere—"

And if he had done that, she'd be filing for divorce, and he would be regarded as a pig and a manipulative asshole ("Have sex with me or I'll get it elsewhere" - the nerve!).

But yes, Dan - this is why I like your column. It's refreshingly unencumbered by this kind of sentimental nonsense.

Dan, I see your point. However, I still don't think cheating is the way to go and if that person is unhappy in their relationship to the point where they will break their vows, they should end it (or ask permission to break their vows like you said). It doesn't make the guy or girl a rotton scoundrel, it just makes their relationship incompatible.

I've never been cheated on by someone who made a lifelong pledge to me, but if I was, I'd be incredibly hurt, even if there were justifications for it.

In theory, Discuss, I'm right there with you. But in practice... contingencies much? Say your wife cuts you off and you have two young children and don't have the income to maintain two households?

Or say your partner has a chronic illness and can't have sex--do you abandon that person so you don't have to abandon your own sex life? Do you go to that person and say, "Hey, sorry about the lupus. I'm going to be right here by your side. Gonna be fucking the widow Riley across the street though. Hope that's cool with you"? Or do you suck it up, stick around, and do what you must to be there for that person while at the same time maintaining your sanity? And, yes, for many folks regular sex is a question of sanity.

Hearts for Dan. My dad cheated on my mom for many years, not even subtly. My mom was a bitch, but she didn't deserve to be saddled with two kids while her husband ran around the club scene.

On the other hand, I love my husband very much, but he denies me sex, and has no real interest in changing it. He'll try once in a while, but then he'll forget about it. Luckily, there's a gay bar down the street, and my husband doesn't consider me expressing my sexuality with another woman to be cheating.

I guess it's my turn to play the grammar pig, but it's "discreetly."

And thanks, Dan. I'm sick of reading the hugely negative columnists out there on the issues of fidelity and sex.

A city councillor here (Toronto) is suggesting that the city ought to impound the cars of men who solicit prostitutes. The councillor claims that this will help inform wives and partners that their men are cheating, since they will be without their car. I mean, forget that single men can hire a hooker, and forget that maybe their wives do know? Maybe she gave her blessing? Hell, maybe they're arranging a threesome ...

"A city councillor here (Toronto) is suggesting that the city ought to impound the cars of men who solicit prostitutes. The councillor claims that this will help inform wives and partners that their men are cheating, since they will be without their car."

Wow. That's astonishingly dumb. It's also going to effectively punish women (esp. poorer ones) for the actions of their husbands - they might need that car for, y'know, getting to work and picking up the kids and such.

Well, if prostitution is going to be illegal, then johns should get punished as much, if not more than, prostitutes. Not that I think prostitution should be illegal in the first place.

The funny thing is prostitution itself is not illegal here, but solicitation -- "communication for the purposes of prostitution" -- is. So I guess ... yeah, essentially prostitution is illegal. We're working on it.

Kat wrote: "Luckily, there's a gay bar down the street, and my husband doesn't consider me expressing my sexuality with another woman to be cheating."

Ok sloggers (And Dan), where do you fall on the question of a person whose spouse does consider same sex hook ups cheating?

"My girlfriend won’t do this. My wife is a bitch."

Yeah,

His girlfriend probably wouldn't do 'that' and his wife probably is a bitch.

If Phil Hartman was still alive, I'm sure he'd have something to say about women.

The shame is that Oprah or Dr Phil never feel obligated to allow this other side to be revealed, discussed and explored. They dispense the one-sided, cliched summations and that is the end of it. Women seem to be perpetual victims in their universe.

This is why it's important to date someone who is--or has been--a little slutty.

Sure, being with a gal or guy with a reputation is like being offered the managing editor job at The Advocate--you know you're not that special, and plenty of people have been there before you. But a position is a position...

I've really enjoyed your articles on this topic Dan. I think you are right, but I also think more people could/should get a divorce rather than cheat but they are too afraid of the consequencies.

I am a woman who was in a loveless, sexless marriage for 12 years and although my husband was perfectly happy with the marriage and would have stayed with me for "Time and All Eternity" (yes we were Mormons!) I decided that I'd rather be free and live on my own instead of cheating on him. I'm so grateful for making this decision! It was tough but worth it.

This is in response to bi guy's post.
THe politics of cheating are definitely more complicated when bisexuality comes into play. My current man and I are currently monogamous, but that becaus eit is what feels right at this pint in the relationship.
That said, he is sensitive to the fact that being monogamous for me involves missing out on a good chunk of my sexual identity. But, monogamy is a choice I've made for myself, so it's not an issue, and if I ever did feel the need to eb with a woman, he would be understanding, although we'd probably make it work for him and go in for a threesome.

Of course, with a guy the threesome idea would be less liekly to swing; not as many women want to be with two guys as men wanting two women.

Bottom line, cheating is a betrayal; being open and honest with your partner if you're going to have sex outside the relationship and comign to an agreement about it isn't infidelity. And seeking required satisfaction when it is bluntly and indefinitely denied by your loved one is not cheating; they are the ones in the wrong for not at least being open to discussion and/or compromise. I'm not saying anyone has to do anything or allow anythign they don't want to, but everyone shoyuld understandwhat they're imposing on another person by unilaterally proposing an acbstinance vow...

I've gone way off from what I was trying to say, and don't really know what my point was anymore. THis is a bonafide rant, and I'm stopping now...

I guess what I wanted to say is that a bisexual in a hetero relationship who has gay sex is cheating if that's something that their opposite-sex partner views as cheating, to a certain extent. That said, it's possible that they need to have both same and oposite sexual relations to be sexually fulfilled.
In that case, either an agreement has to be reached allowing for some kind of same-sex exploration or the bisexual in question will probably have to find someone who is okay with their needs.
I guess what I'm saying is, I'd rather people did not try to stifle their loved ones' needs, but if you're cheating, doing something that you know will hurt your partner, you're also in the wrong...

@12,

If the thousands of women murdered by men last year were still around, I'm sure they'd have plenty to say about men.

@18

They've already said enough to cover the next 50,000 deaths.

Maybe, just maybe there are MANY kinds of love. I guess, if I was truely confident with the love my partner and I shared then I would be more willing and understanding about sharring her with someone who can satisfy her more sexual needs than me. I suppose a big dick fetish would be pretty hard to sell me with. I guess I would have to know that she loved me but lusted after her. But then again, i'm one of those weirders that aims to please anyways. My enthusiasm for sex exponantially increases with the girls enthusiasm for sex, and I seem to enjoy foreplay for that reason.

Eh ...whatever ... to each his own.

Maybe, just maybe there are MANY kinds of love. I guess, if I was truely confident with the love my partner and I shared then I would be more willing and understanding about sharring her with someone who can satisfy her more sexual needs than me. I suppose a big dick fetish would be pretty hard to sell me with. I guess I would have to know that she loved me but lusted after her. But then again, i'm one of those weirders that aims to please anyways. My enthusiasm for sex exponantially increases with the girls enthusiasm for sex, and I seem to enjoy foreplay for that reason.

Eh ...whatever ... to each his own.

@19,

Misogyny is so hilarious!

@22

I never said it was. What's next? "Fuck you, Patriarch!"?

Please, I'm waiting.

I don't hate women. I dislike women who cannot for the life of them shut up about how evil men are. Yes, we know you're a victim. You have been a victim since the dawn of civilization. Woe is you, rama rama ding dong.

Brian @13 and all:

I tend to agree with the observations about Oprah and Dr. Phil and that their discussions of cheating are obviously one-sided and anti-male. But let's remember that these people are TALK SHOW HOSTS. They are not psychologists or ethicists (except in the amateur sense). They may wrap themselves up in the warm fuzzy blanket of helping people, but in the end they exist to make money for themselves and for their network. As such, the opinions they express must be tailored to be those that their audience agrees with, else the audience will stop watching. And the vast majority of those who watch their shows are women.

I realize that there are many (mostly) women out there who take Oprah's and Dr. Phil's opinions as infaliable, but there's no reason for the rest of us to take them so seriously.

cut to the chase: is this article going to get me more frequent facesitting or not?

Not that anyone asked me, but since I have had good relationships that ended well as friends, bad relationships who's end mimicked an ugly divorce *albeit in an unmarried capacity (it still sucks no matter how you slice it) and marriage that ended in the death of a spouse, I can't resist weighing in on this.
The use of the word cheating implies a clear lack of communication and outright deception. Lying is always bad. As long as people are honest and safe with one another, I can't really see where there is "a rule" that is broken.
You see the real covenant of marriage is really between the individual adult participants... not the state (government)- who needs to recognize yesterday they clearly see a benefit from people of all sexual interests pairing off in state-sanctioned unions. Not the invisible faith-based third party deity of your personal persuasion. Life events that matter to long-term sexual partners (contraception, birth, raising children, death of parents, long-term illness of partner or spouse) require this level of honesty, clarity and consistency in communication.

@26 -

"Life events that matter to long-term sexual partners ... require this level of honesty, clarity and consistency in communication."

Indeed, bijoubaby, but marriage also requires a level of empathy for and understanding of your partner as well. And if your partner fails to show that - e.g. by unilaterally deciding, without negotiation, that your marriage will be sexless - then I don't see how cheating is necessarily showing that much less of a regard for the marriage.

An Indian court today ruled that witholding sex constitutes mental cruelty and can be grounds for divorce.

The thing is that marriage is a social construct, not a biological one. Animals aren't necessarily wired for monogamy, and as intelligent as we are, humans are still animals.

Amen, Dan.

#27 tsm, No one said anything about unilaterally deciding anything. I stand by my statement that clear communication... not lying or relying on half-truths or innuendo as a substitute for actual conversation... is essential in any successful relationship.

@23,

Bullshit you don't. Making jokes about how overly talkative women are -- so no one need speak up for them on issues of male violence -- is misogynistic. How hard did you have to wrack your brain before you came up with an example of a famous man who was murdered by a woman? The number of men murdered by women every year in this country is typically in the three-digit range. The number of men and women murdered by men is typically in the five-digit range. But pointing all this out, in rebuttal to your misogynist bullshit, apparently makes me a whiner who sees all women as victims.

Fuck off, asshole. Unlike many women, I don't see it that way. I would be perfectly content with women taking matters into their own hands and forcing men to fuck off. So which threatens you more? Women who stand up for themselves or women who'd expend their energy on complaining?

Of course, with a guy the threesome idea would be less liekly to swing; not as many women want to be with two guys as men wanting two women.

" Of course, with a guy the threesome idea would be less liekly to swing; not as many women want to be with two guys as men wanting two women.

Ah, the more fools them. To each their own, I suppose. =)"

Ah, I wish there was more women like you out there. And to Biguy = Does she know you're bisexual? I told my GF awhile ago (as in 5 years ago) and I was really worried that she'd flip out (which she kind of did) but then she dealt with and then WE dealt with it. A strap on might not be as exciting as flesh and you might not get the hairy chest and male pheromones that you're after (or whatever it is you're attracted to) but it's still pretty cool. At least it makes me content enough.

I think the problem is getting two men to agree to share a woman together, not especially a lack of women up for the idea.

" a bisexual in a hetero relationship who has gay sex is cheating if that's something that their opposite-sex partner views as cheating, to a certain extent. That said, it's possible that they need to have both same and oposite sexual relations to be sexually fulfilled.
In that case, either an agreement has to be reached allowing for some kind of same-sex exploration or the bisexual in question will probably have to find someone who is okay with their needs."

While not everyone knows this in advance, and long-term relationships are certainly an exercise in learning things no one thought to bring up originally, many people make agreements about their views on monogomy within the first six months of a relationship. I would be pretty pissed with someone who told me they were monogomous while I was deciding how far to commit to a relationship, and then later, after the relationship was more advanced, told me they really didn't mean monogomy, just mostly, or something like that. Call it bait and switch--if you know you don't intend monogomy, be upfront about it. I do regard sex with other people as non-monogomy, regardless of whether the other partner is differently-sexed than I am.

And for the record, I have been in poly and mono relationships, and with partners who were bi. People were upfront about what they wanted, which made it much easier to negotiate.

Hello everyone, wanna be part of some kind of community, possible here? anyone here?

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