thanks for the info.
i just got home [very north part of squire park] and there were lots of cops prowling my street, and now one cop car is parked at the end of my alley.
at least now i know why.
awesome.

Stacy, awesome is not the word I would use. WTF people!!! I never thought that I would start to say this but since we have infused lots of "straight" culture on Cap Hill it was only going to be a matter of time when it would not be safe to go out any more. When I first moved to Seattle in 1996 you could go out on the hill and not worry about homophobes attacking gays or lesbians either verbally or physically and there sure as hell were not shootings in front of the clubs on the hill.

I do not have a problem with most straight folks but lets face reality. Some of them ran Pioneer Square into the ground and have run Belltown into the ground. Did any of us expect them to do differently on the hill?

It is time for some serious classic Pro Gay action on the Hill and we need it now!! I say we start by protesting Club Lagoon and the other straight clubs that have caused problems. And I am going to piss people off but this MUST be done by the Queer Community! I love the support of our straight friends but it has to come from the GLBT community first and foremost.

We have to draw a line and see the battle through!!!

In all fairness to us straight people who've also lived on the hill forever, most of us hate club lagoon too.

Bring back the Queer Patrol.

make sure you get pride off the hill, no show of numbers, marks of ownership - sense of strength and community - gosh, did the big events really mean something more than a party?

what a concept - signals of strength and unity - stay out trouble makers, we own this neighborhood

I think the gay people on the hill, who are left, are soon on their own

and those who think it was all about a romp in the fountain, just a lot of fun, need to talk politics and safty EVEN in Seattle

I have moved twice to improve my saftey zone in seattle, once after a small mob were trying to chase my partner and I down, we were walking home in late afternoon

oh geez, guess the ACLU and the zippy hipsters really didn't change the energy of violence and homophobia, still pervasive

I believe that all members of the Capitol Hill community, gay and straight, need to actively protest the violence that occurs on the Hill. There has been some high-profile violence lately, but I don't seen anyone getting active about it at all.

Unlike almost every other neighborhood with active community or neighborhood councils, Capitol Hill remains non-chalant about crime issues. (Since many are renters, it can be difficult to organize, but that needs to be addressed.)

I don't want the Hill crawling with cops, but neighbors and those who visit Capitol Hill have to look out for each other.

As for the gay/straight issue, most straight people who live on the Hill cannot stand places like Pioneer Square or Belltown. That's why they live in Capitol Hill. Discriminating against (and making sweeping generalizations about) straight people in a call to action might feel good, but it will reduce any tangible results. There are strength in numbers. Being inclusive is a smarter strategy.

One thing about this particular event though... was any parties involved actually gay or was this just typical turf war crap?

i don't think it discriminates against straights to point out that straight men are generally the ones who end up in the most fights and gun battles, who keep a place from being "safe." it's not all straight men. but a subset. it's gendered violence, macho morons, and it does have the unfortunate tendency of spilling over into homophobic violence even if in this case it didn't.

Attention Paranoid Queens:

Calm your hysteria. For one thing, this is not the first shooting outside a club on the hill. The same thing happened at Mo's (or one of its incarnations) when they had a hip-hop night several years back. It is CERTAINLY not the first act of violence on the hill, especially on that block.

Secondly, Homos don't have an exclusive right to Capitol Hill, and they never did. You'd be screaming from the rooftops if a few people in a Seattle neighborhood declared it was "straight", so just STFU already.

Third, do we even know the backstory? Could it be that some angry queen got a gun and went after a man who done her wrong, or is that just too unthinkable, because members of the "community" don't do that?

Lastly, I'm sorry that some people have their panties in a bunch about the parade moving, but I must say those people are naive: The parade (you'll notice I don't call it a "march" because it's not) lasts for four hours on one day. That's hardly enough to establish "ownership" of a neighborhood.

So just can the paranoid victimization until you know the whole story.

all you nice guys are missing the reality

violence = machismo (straight men who get drunk)

drunk = sex ( gay men out to party)

I have been out to party hundreds of times in gay bars/clubs all over the city and have never seen a major slug fest fight, let alone knives and guns

The stuff goes on EVERY weekend all over the straight places as the drinking gets on

kicking fags is a predictable produce of drunk straight men in you space - just a good party for them - and makes them feel manly inside

in this era you can get a drink all over the place, saftey zone is really only 100 per cent in gay bars, esp. at midnight

and if you are a queen, better be careful

I guess it's no surprise that last week was the debut of Sugar as an all-straight club.

Still - I'm sure the bridge-and-tunnel crowd will dig the 1990's manray's-trashy-cousin decor far more than the capitol hill gays did.

I bet it's going to be tough to keep all that white clean now.

#9

for me it was ALWAYS a march, I like picket signs

your dismissive know it all post sucks

the big pride week with a dozen events, ending with a massive show of energy and -- all the out, signs, sex, costumes, swish galore, for every one -- very, very powerful in saying this is our space and we run it without violence

we are sick of your kick them in the ass, beat them up, shoot them, all that macho pig violence crap - don't bring it into our neighborhood

#9 - you are just too cool, I have know lots of gay men like you, it is called denial

you want to give up your turf, esp. with all the good stuff as on the hill, someone else will rule

The gay pride march in SF goes down Market Street and ends downtown. The gay pride march in NYC is down 5th Avenue, not up and down 8th in Chelsea. We're not giving up our turf by marching to Seattle Center on 4th. We're claiming the entire city as our turf.

@1... awesome was dripping with sarcasm. i thought that was obvious.

“infused lots of ‘straight’ culture on Cap Hill it was only going to be a matter of time when it would not be safe to go out any more.”

“i don't think it discriminates against straights to point out that straight men are generally the ones who end up in the most fights and gun battles”

“kicking fags is a predictable produce of drunk straight men in you space - just a good party for them - and makes them feel manly inside”

Bullshit bullshit bullshit. This isn’t “straight culture” or “straight men” behavior. This is * homophobe * behavior. Call it what it is, and stop painting with such a broad brush.

I’ve stuck up for gay men under assault (verbal or otherwise) in far tougher places than anywhere in Seattle. I didn’t move away, or leave. I spoke up and put myself at risk in places like West Baltimore, let alone on the Hill. I continue to do so here as straight man living on Capitol Hill. Broaden your mind a teeny bit, and consider there are straight men from your community who are willing to stand next to you.

Dan you always just say it like there is no discussion.

By the way, this is not SFO or Chicago or NYC - and very small by population comparison, to start

Does this new sense of moving to wonder world downtown mean the Stranger offices are going there too? Or do you really just like them on the Hill? That very queer, mixed, great vibrant neighborhood at Pine and something.

Suggest new location somewhere on 4th, the new turf. Or down by the Weekly.

I bet this will be another fine opportunity for SPD to show off their professionalism by filing a report and promptly forgetting it.

golob - thanks, but no thanks

you missed the point, Gay men repudiate the entire culture of violence and it doesn't really matter if it is "homophobic" - directed at us

We are just as turned off when you fight each other

Gay men who have worked through a few things reject the silly phony baloney machismo stuff you all carry around in buckets

Dump all that stuff off and there is no need for violence to prove we have balls and hardons to anyone

IT IS THE TRUTH ... that big rumbles, any rumbles aside from watch it queenie, in gay bars are as rare as can be - any - and as common as dog shit in a park in straight bars all over the city - you figure out why

And as all the queens who are posting here know, we often talk about the mood and anger difference in straight places and gay places ... old conversations and observations

@ #9 - check your fly, you animus is showing...
Statements such as how we would be "screaming from the rooftops", how some "angry queen got a gun and went after HER man" and "panties in a bunch" demonstrate your direct connection to the deeply threatened thugs who are most likely at the root of the violence on the hill. As has been demonstrated in numerous studies (most easily accessed in David Nimmons book "The Soul Beneath the Skin"), gay male on gay male violence is so extremely rare as to be completely non-existent outside of domestic violence situations. There is no other community that can gather by the hundreds (as in larger bars) or thousands (as on pride day) with almost no acts of violence whatsoever. Add straight men to the mix and the violence level escalates to the equivalent (if not even more)of any other large gathering. This is not opinion, or even simply personal experience, but is statistical fact. But, to use anecdotal evidence, when is the last time you were patted down for weapons or noticed a gay bar (not "gay-in-name-but-full-of-straight-boys-trying-to -pick-up-all-the-cute-women-who-go-to-gay-bars
-because-the -music-is-better-and-they-won't-be-bothered-by-asshole-straight-boys) that needed 5 to 10 bouncers at the door to deal with the violent, straight men?

Kindly please crawl back under your rock.

BTW, I haven't worn panties in years...

"culture of violence"?

Did I say anything about fighting anyone? Do you honestly think that because I'm straight, the only way I resolve conflicts is through fighting?

Aside from elementary school, I have NEVER had a fist-fight. Nor have I ever carried a gun or knife. When I say "stand up for" I mean as an adult, not a meathead.

Biologically, 90-95% of people are straight. Are you honestly going to insist that ALL straight men fit your machismo model? That the ONLY way a straight man can resolve a conflict is through a bunch of macho posturing and violence?

I call bullshit.

Uh... you lost this debate already, Henry. The parade moved off the hill, went downtown, and despite the best efforts of the nay-sayers and paranoids, it was a huge success. Folks voted with their feet and went, and loved it, and it's going downtown this year.

Also, Seattle's population is roughly 565,000. SF's is 750,000. It's a bigger city, SF, but not even half again as big.

As for the Stranger's office... ask anyone I work with. I've want us to move downtown -- have for years. I drive Tim Keck nuts asking about it.

above -too bad, I used to like you in transiton from- oh, my God jockey night - to WOW in lacy black

wear them for pride, oh, but there will be codes for that sort of thing downtown, trust me

not too queer, the straight people will be offened, and must not offend them, as our status depends on their approval, it seems

black lace in the fountain, can't wait for the Center Police to calm the crown down.....

Golob - your comments are welcome, and I have many straight male friends like yourself. However, I don't think you can call "bullshit". While there may be hundreds of straight men in The Cuff, Neighbors, or Sugar who don't cause violence, I believe you will find if you asked their staffmembers that 95-100% of the non-domestic violence that occurs there is caused by straight men. So, thanks for your support, and you are welcome to join me for a beer anytime. But do recognize that the issue is created by straight men.

I'm straight, don't hate gays, never been in a fight since elementary school..

but, yeah, keep blaming straight people, that'll solve lots of problems. i mean it's not like I've never read a news report or story in the stranger about an abusive gay man and the boyfriend that feared for his life.

yeah, only straight guys are violent.

/rolls eyes

read 19 and 23 again - seattle98104

and this is not personal, welcome all you nerdy straight sweetie weenies to our bars - you buy

The others, are a problem, and we know the problem because it can cost us big time, as in rape, bad beatings assault with pipes, bottles and other, and getting killed.

Sorry to shake up your assumptions, but that is the way the world turns. Straight men as a category like violence, and when they drink, and need to be impressively macho - look out.

Seattle98104
See my post above. It is a proven statistical fact that violence between previously unknown parties is largely a straight male phenom. Domestic violence has a completely different root cause from stranger on stranger violence.

I don't think members of the LGBT community, of which I am one, do ourselves any favors by over-generalizing anything about straight people. We risk alienating straight friends, neighbors and allies.

While it may be true that the vast majority of violence is committed by straights is that surprising since they are also the vast majority of the population?

Violent individuals are a subset of the straight population. Pick on that subset all you want. But lets recognize that our straight brothers and sisters are valuable and appreciated for their support.

And personally, it sounds like I'd like Golob at my back the next time I go out on Capital Hill!

cheers

Statistically speaking, straight men are likelier to engage in acts of violence than gay men or straight women. However, Jeffrey Dahmer ate a friend of mine.

Even the police admit to the straight male problem. How many patrol cars did you see around the Hill around 2am when the bars were getting out- about the same number as drove around the neighborhood at 2pm on a Saturday afternoon. Gay men don't cause the kind of violence that straight men do. There are constant complaints about Beltown and Pioneer Square because straight men are more violent. And now because of the straight crowd at Club Lagoon, it's coming to the Hill. Everyone has the capacity for violence, but when straight men get drunk in large numbers, violence is a matter of course.
The blame on this matter is to straight men. The few that post on this board are probably a little wiser than the general population, but that doesn't mean there isn't a corrolary.

I have a commet, first I did not blame all straight guys. Where did I blame all of them? But when this shit goes down I have yet to hear of a gay man kicking the ass of or harrassing a straight man. I am simply stating that if the gays what someplace to go out and a place to call "our own" we need to start protesting the shit that.... YES... some of the straight assholes are doing. It is not just the shooting last night but the attack a couple of weeks ago that was on the slog. The kid who was knifed in front of the Timberline two summers ago. Gay couples being harrassed simply by walking down the damn street!

It is pure logic. Gays and lesbians have friends who are straight and cool with people who are gay. BUT those straight friends have friends who are not so cool with it who in turn have friends who would love to kick the ass of some gay guy after a few drinks.

Anyone knows it is not all straight people or maybe not even a majority. But this is a fight that has to start with the gay community. It has to be propelled by the gay community and frankly I say lets march tonight. SCREW getting a permit! Screw doing the nice thing. Civil disobedience is a wonderful thing. I say let's protest Club Lagoon TONIGHT!

Will it cause problems? You are damn right it will. Will we possibly get hurt? Physically there is a good chance of it but spiritually it is the definition of righteousness.

We may even fail and fail in a way we can not even imagine. But if we are to fail and if we are to fall lets make sure the city and the world hear us go down fighting.

CameronRex - I understand, agree and appreciate that we have hundreds of thousands of allies amongst straight men. I even invited Golob out for a beer (and not just to watch my back). My argument has apparently been lost in my rhetoric. My point is that gay male on gay male violence is statistically non-existent, and that there is increasing violence on the hill,not that straight men are universally violent. #9 above pissed me off with his Colter-ish comments, which was probably his intention. Going to go pull weeds in the rain to atone... (not really to atone, but because it needs to be done. Gotta love Spring in Seattle!)

Jesus.. Am I the only one who find it just a LITTLE ironic that so many people in this thread are making massive generalizations about people's behavior based on their sexual orientation? Are you fucking nuts? Isn't this what the gay community is trying to stop?

The problem isn't with straight people, it's with VIOLENT people. The fact that the incidents of violence at the clubs you go to are often or usually perpetrated by straight men is not an excuse to use discriminatory language like this and to call for some kind of "war" on the straights. If you like this logic, how do you feel about interning all men of middle-eastern decent or Muslims? Seems only prudent.

And, bottom line: You live in one of the safest cities in the world.

These comments have gone far from being beyond mildly ironic to blatant fear-mongering.

so far in the running as to "why" this happened we have:

In the lead: Straight Man and his Need To Murder the Shit out of People

what else could be the problem?

oh I don't know, America's love affair with the gun? the culture of violence? television? media? war?

a myriad of other things that can't really be pinned until we actually get the facts, or some minimal details as to hat happened.

don't you think you might be a tad bit over reacting when from a detail-less slog post results in some you calling for the ouster of the Hill's striaght hang outs?

oh, andy, poor andy

you are so afraid of the conversation you don't want it to happen - we might turn off our "allies"

not a single post even implied that OK straight guys are less than great - the ones we give stress/frustration reduction lessons to

just sheer facts and our own lives as observers - a little like black folks knowing more about racism than white folks - gay men understand the swirling pit of male ego, machismo, violence when acting out and drunk, etc.

it is OK to be expert about your own life and claim your right to safe space and not just pretend that if we talk about it it gets worse - and Seattle is safe already

And Dan just tosses it off with a horrid Jeffery Dahmer line....as C. Hill and downtown change, I think it is rational to say what that means

Less pure safty for very open gay and lesbian folks is most likely a change

and don't tell me same sex couple kiss and hold hands in White Center or Ballard

then there is the toss off about how safe we are in Seattle/America, not true

but very all American - there are many cities, countries where violence is very low, almost unheard of

take a look at murder rates in Japan and England, for example, or Canada - all very much safer by comparison

98104 - need to pay more attention and learn

you cannot pretend the you can do the seminar about --- WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A GAY MAN IN THE VIOLENCE PRONE LIFE IN MEDIUM SIZED AMERICAN CITIES

and you are dismissing out of the box very valid concerns

why? - it feels like straight guy, admittedly nice guy, telling gay guys they are wrong about their lives, that you are somehow better advised than we are

no logical said the Vulcan

Barry poor Barry... I am afraid of nothing. What are you scared of? That I could be right? Gee, not all straight guys are pricks, and they are not.

And about not knowing how this all works my dear dear Barry. Try coming out at a conservative christian college in Spokane as being Gay. And the first one at that, while living in the dorms. Give that a shot and then let's talk.

There are is a growing homophobia in Seattle that is just being written off as "a few bad people" and our complacency is just giving it root. There is a point where you have to take a stand and frankly, no one seems willing to do it. And I for one would like us to stand up before they come to our doors in jack boots at 3:30am.

But hell, what do I know, I have lived through a few of death threats and having the crap beat out of me for being gay in college.

albeit i am a pacifist by nature, i am strongly tempted to smack 'barry' and all others upside the head for their shitty-ass spelling and omissions of periods! how do you expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't spell or punctuate?

oops, sorry, i forgot they're products of american high schools.

Thanks Ginger, and sorry about my typos. They need spell check on Slog.

I don't know why you're bothing to debate, Andrew. Some people are just itching to be victims. Hysteria is part of their worldview.

I could point out that this shooting hasn't made any of the local news, outside of Slog, but I suppose that would be homophobic of me. After all, it's much more fun to fly off the handle and post overwrought online drama fits than it is to actually get any facts about what happened.

oh Gingr, poor Ginger

if I spell check, does that mean less violence against fags......her's some periods...........

Ginger oh Ginger, not in high school any more - at least I am not. Have finally dumped off most of that bad experience.

I thought blogs were fast and temporary messages - but - I was wrong. Somewhere, Ginger must know, we are getting graded

Ginny, I wear mis matched socks, or not socks, and have neurotphay bad in my arms and hands, lucky I can post at all -- Ginger, get off your silly kicks

And when I work, I get paid consulting fees at 300.00 per hour. Clerks transcribe my tapes. I went to Bellevue High, FYI - and several elite universities....

Andrew - meant Anthony

Sorry, you have a lot of info on this topic, for sure.

Start Queer Nation up again, then you would have your instant picket folks.

I am a little suspect about Lagoon. I heard they are going all gay. Soon.

Someone I trust said the Stranger did a hit piece on them because they weren't advertising....???

Tell us what you know, first hand.

I think it would be wise to actually find out what happened before anyone starts blaming people's sexuality. How ironic would it be if it was a gay man? I'm sure it was probably a straight guy, if for the only fact that a higher percentage of the male population is straight, even in Capitol Hill. I've lived there for years and this is definitely not the first act of a gun violence in the area, and yes I've noticed an increase of violence recently. The neighborhood definitely has a different feel than it used to though, probably because it is becoming more gentrified. I'm willing to bet the shooter didn't live in Capitol Hill though. I don't know of many homophobic straight men that lived in Capitol Hill. As for gay men not being violent, I've seen some crazy stuff, fights included, go down at the Crescent and at the Eagle, it's rare but not unheard of.

"And I for one would like us to stand up before they come to our doors in jack boots at 3:30am."

It's hard to take you seriously when you say stuff like that.

George @ #42: Crescent - not gay on weekends, at least not the last Saturday that I was down there. Easily 60/70% straight. As for the Eagle - most certianly gay. Only time I've ever seen a fight there (or in any gay bar)was between boyfrieds, ex-boyfriends or current boyfriends vs. ex-boyfriends, all in the realm of domestic violence.

Bed @ #39: I don't see any debate occurring in your posts... and "Overwrought online drama fits" sounds remarkably like another Coulter-ism. You can't pass up the opportunity to disparage gay men by pulling out the queen card. I suggest that you might have some issues...

So you are all arguing about whether or not straight people are more violent than gay people. I call bullshit. The only usable statistics for determining violence rates are for those between men and women (ignoring the small subsets of trannies). Gay people aren't violent or engage in violent behaviors? Who was the first person wounded in the current Iraq war?

The only argument that makes sense in trying to prove that gays aren't violent is that they are all limp wristed fagots. Again I call bullshit.

And as for this alleged shooting, does anyone have any links to any actual credible news source? Like maybe a police report or something?

Well, I am getting tired of this line on the Slog but honestly we should ask if the Stranger feels the violence on the hill that has been rising for several years is worth looking into for an article. We all obviously have opinions on this and we all seem to agree that there are bad things going down on the hill.

So, this is my final post on this which I leave this question: What/when will the Stranger take this issue on? Dan? Christopher? We put are calling the Stranger out to the floor. When are we going to see the article on what is happening on the hill? And please, let's not limit it to something for the Queer issue. The rights of everyone is something the mainstream media does not talk about and something that we must be vigilant about ALL year round.

So just that everyone remembers arguing over the internet is like running in the special Olympics even if you win you are still retarded!

Just more evidence that Pike\Pine is going down the drain. I moved to Belltown from Pike\Pine about a month and a half ago, and I definitely feel safer here on a Friday or Saturday night than I did in Pike\Pine. It's really too bad. If you got rid of a few problematic club nights, the neighborhood would be just as fun and safe as it used to be. Is Sugar turning into one of these undesirable clubs? Yo Son at The War Room definitely attracts the kind of crowd that is prone to harassing area residents and LGBT people. Club Lagoon is another.

Other than the fact that this happened on capitol hill outside a club that was once gay, what has this got to do with gays?

It has no more to do with gays than violence outside of the war room, which was once "blue".

Sugar: not gay anymore people - http://sugarseattle.com/ (and no – that chick might look like a drag queen – but she’s an actual woman).

Or perhaps the real story is why a city of this size can't maintain more than two gay clubs (one of which is only gay in the "that’s sooo gay" sense of the word).

I hear a lot about pike/pine going down the drain - but the fact is, unless the gay guys in this town are prepared to go out and vote with their dollars & patronize the capitol hill bars & clubs... well... they'll all go the way of sugar.

does anyone but me hear very, very thinly veiled racism in the hysteria here? "the war room definitely attracts the kind of crowd that is prone to harassing area residents and lgbt people" - that's not racist, is it? uh...

war room, club lagoon, now sugar? aren't we talking about hip-hop and "thug culture" here? do we know fur sure that this "kind of crowd" is responsible? hm...

because you can walk by the faux irish bar on olive and get heckled by very white, very heavy metal boys too...

It's not racist, it's musicist. Most of the people that go to Hip Hop night at The War Room are white. I actually like Hip Hop, but you cannot deny that Hip Hop nights at Seattle night clubs tend to draw a macho, misogynistic, homophobic crowd that tends towards violence. I actually had no idea that Sugar had a Hip Hop night until mentioned it.

That should read "until you mentioned it"

A friend of mine sent me an email a while back about how us homos are being "forced back in the basement" because so many bars are changing, but I'm not sure I buy that.

Maybe more gay guys are just finding better alternatives to bars - or finding bars that are accepting of everyone, where they are comfortable. Maybe the "gay bar" is becoming a thing of the past.

As for gay guys and gay clubs being less violent, that may be true, but consider this: I worked at The Cuff for seven years, and part of the reason there's never have any trouble there is because they have plenty of security, and they have plenty of fire escapes: When a fight breaks out, security descends on it, and it's shoved out the nearest fire escape - thus making it a street problem and not a club problem.

With that said, I can't imagine a gay guy bringing a gun into a bar unless he has gone over the deep end.

But despite what people may say, I believe there is just as much domestic violence in the gay population as there is among straight population. I've known both gays and lesbians who have been battered by their partners, and couples where the abuse is reciprocal. Unfortunately, I think that trait is universal.

In the end, I think this is much more a sad commentary on youth violence than any sexual orientation issue. I'm glad I'm a middle-aged "queen" who is too tired to go out at night ;-)

here we go. i knew it was only a matter of time before this thread started dragging in the neighbors.

the war room employs one of the finest security teams in seattle. for a club of its size, there are very few problems with violence and criminal activity.

pat downs and bag searches are the norm at the war room. they are NEVER short on security. the line is always maintained in an orderly fashion. the interior and exterior of the club is kept free of graffiti. security works very hard to calmly disperse the crowd at the end of the night.

the war room also takes special care to work with reputable promoters. shady dealings and criminal behavior are not tolerated in or around the club.

i have worked within the bar and nightclub world for a very long time, in a wide variety of capacities. i can honestly say that the folks running the war room are some of the best in town. it's a tight ship.

don't start blaming hip hop. there are just as many dudes outside of rock shows, sporting events, and bars on a friday night looking to brawl.

Kerri,

I don't think the issue here is what happens INSIDE places like The War Room, but rather what happens when the people inside spill OUTSIDE into a perceived "gay neighborhood" at 2:00 a.m. ...

Obviously, based on the number of comments, there's a lot of anger, resentment, and what-have-you regarding this incident and what it might mean in terms of both outsiders and resident's perceptions of what is or isn't happening to the CapHill neighborhood, particularly the club district on Pike/Pine. As someone who lived here in the late '80's/early '90's and moved back to the Hill a couple of years ago, it doesn't seem to me that things are any worse than they were back then, but at the same time, I don't hang out at clubs, so take that as you will.

And, as a straight male who does like to drink, but doesn't like to fight - unless forced to - I'm not going to take the broad generalizations personally; they don't represent who I am, and I don't act the way the people being criticized do, so I know I'm not in whomever's crosshairs. But, that doesn't mean I don't feel just as angry about these kinds of stupid, dangerous, and potentially deadly incidents occuring in MY NEIGHBORHOOD as any gay person does, and rightly so.

One of the reasons I moved back to the Hill is because I like the diversity, I like the fact that it's generally one of the more tolerant neighborhoods in our city, that it's a place where ANYBODY should feel comfortable, safe, secure (car-prowling crack-heads and tweakers aside), and able to be ones' self, whatever that means for you personally. I like that kind of neighborhood, and I for one have no problem either standing with anyone who feels that sense of security is being violated - or standing on the sidelines, if my support isn't welcome. I can take it either way.

So, just know, those of you who see every straight guy as a possible threat, clearly there are a few exceptions; those of you not willing to wallow in rampant generalizations, thank you. And for anybody else who thinks pulling a piece in MY NEIGHBORHOOD is appropriate, regardless of your gender or orientation - fuck off, 'cause you're an asshole.

Now, this straight dude is going to have another drink. And I promise, I won't shoot at anybody afterwards, just so's ya' knows...

As a native Detroiter, I find this sort of apocalyptic alarm over a shooting outside of a bar absurd. This kind of incident happens multiple times a night in the Motor City. It's "sun-rose-in-the-east" stuff there.

I don't mean to imply that we should just shrug our shoulders and do nothing about what appears to be an increase of violent incidents in Cap Hill. But get some perspective and a sense of proportion. Violence happens in big cities for many reasons. Remember--you are living in the US of fucking A, which is full of stupid, violent citizens. Let's not start an initiative to castrate all straight men because of a slight uptick in hostile activity.

This whole discussion is interesting only for the fact that people are inventing long elaborate stories to describe an event which none of them witnessed. As everyone remembers from this summer, sometimes violence comes out of left field from a weird and lonely guy from Montana with a bunch of guns.

As far as the general violent tone of the Pike/Pine neighborhood from Broadway up to 12th or 15th or so: I worked in the center of the area for a while, and can definitely say I noticed a violent upswing in the past year. Saying where it comes from is a different story, because I don't think it can be placed on any one source, least of which is this mythologized idea of the evil ogres descending from the wiles of Renton and Everett to terrorize the peaceful fairies of capitol hill (though they very well may be one component of the problem).

I think the big problem with Club Lagoon, aside from all the hearsay and unverified reports of bro-brahs running amok, is the same problem the state has with a NASCAR track -- it's a pink flamingo in our tastefully manicured lawn.

As someone else noted, bring back the Guardian Angels?

So.... Do we know that this even happened? After all we're all worked up over a report from a Stranger intern, but it hasn't shown any other place.

McGriddler-
the fact that Club Lagoon's patrons are running amok isn't "unverified." SPD is very aware of the "ongoing scenario"
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=167427

Like I said in an earlier post .... bring back the Q Patrol. Hell, any sort of neighborhood watch program would help. All residents, gay and straight, would benefit.

And FWIW, I maintain that us straight folk in Capitol Hill generally hate the clientele of places like Sugar and Club Lagoon too. I certainly don't want to associate with these fuckwits. That's why I don't live in Belltown.

Jonah -- I don't doubt that there have been fights outside of Club Lagoon. But it's also fair to say that most of us have a kneejerk dislike for Club Lagoon because of what it represents.

The fights forced several nearby businesses to lock their doors until police broke up the melees. There have been allegations from local workers that patrons leaving Club Lagoon are making their way through the neighborhood homophobically harassing residents, employees, and diners at other businesses.

Broadway Grill night manager Spencer Fairbanks attributes the sudden culture clash appearing in Broadway's nightlife to "a Belltown crowd that's importing itself into Capitol Hill." Fairbanks, a spritely round-faced man in his late 30s, believes the crowds arriving from Belltown are openly hostile to Capitol Hill's well-established gay community. He has overheard patrons from the post-club crowd voicing their displeasure about "all of the faggots running around."

That's hearsay. The larger problem is not the bridge and tunnel East Peroxiders, it's the roving crackheads. We're all just used to them.

Check this out man. I'm a straight man. I was raised in the very macho environs of So Cal's barrios. It took some real soul searching to outgrow all that wrong teaching I'd gotten there and move past that entire lifestyle. I avoid conflict like cops on Capitol Hill avoid breaking a sweat.

I've got news for you. The open hostility some gays on The Hill have for hetero is unacceptable if you intend a better neighborhood for everybody. I watched a gay man grab an enormous handful of my girlfriend's ass when we were out recently. She protested, he and his friends dismissed her protests whil I admittedly stood by dumbfounded and confused. It's one of the very few acts assaults I've witnessed on the hill. Younger me would've hospitalized those jerks. Older, wiser me should've open hand slapped the dude. I did nothing. It's lose/lose.

Again, this is one of a handful of violent acts I've encountered on Cap Hill. I'm out nealry every night since I moved here 7 years ago. You guys are seriously making a mountain out of a molehill. Gay men fight plenty. I think you also conveniently dismiss violent homos with trainbum and convict backlgrounds as not gay. The history of war in the last 10,000 years is rife with gays. But this is totally me getting suckered into addressing the non issue anyway. You are not precious little victims and Capitol Hill is not your neighborhood exclusively. I know it may be difficult to imagine that but you really are not special citizens. Capitol Hill is not under seige by chest thumpers and thugs. It sort of feels like that when you walk out into the night at closingn time on the weekends now, but ask yourself how much of that is actual and how much is perceived.

The nieghborhood is in transition and I don't like the B&T crowd anymore than you but shoehorning in an excuse to straight bash is divisive and won't lead anywhere productive, even if you're envisioning a seperatist agenda, it's not gonna happen. Please, try not to weild your unique challenges in life as some half-baked identity weapon. It's cool for a minute to your more impressionable friends but it has an enormous downside that will eventually devolve into you being surrounded by lick spittles who are not as smart as you. If that's the plan, then whatever I guess.

I am thinking there is some fictional stories coming into the line of conversation for some strange reason.

I am thinking that the original story is fiction. No one else seems to know anything about it. You'd think that a shooting on Capitol Hill would get some more media attention than a Stranger intern.....

before reading these comments, ive had a lot of repect for people who are "gay" so my comments may cause some problems but i did not bring this upon myself, YOU PEOPLE DID!!

#11 "I guess it's no surprise that last week was the debut of Sugar as an all-straight club."

--yeah there are alot of straight people that goes there but is there a sign that says "gays not allowed"??

# 24 "but, yeah, keep blaming straight people, that'll solve lots of problems. i mean it's not like I've never read a news report or story in the stranger about an abusive gay man and the boyfriend that feared for his life."

--and dont forget, we were never the problem...you dont see any bills or laws being passed about straight people trying to get married? or adopting a kid? so STFU!!

#48 "Yo Son at The War Room definitely attracts the kind of crowd that is prone to harassing area residents and LGBT people."

--what king of people are you talking about? asians? blacks? indians? muslims? This sounds more like a "race" issue rather than a "gay" issue. trying to keep capitol one color i see hahaha lol, its 2007...there is something called freedom and rights...we all fucken pay taxes so we all as "humans" not "gays" or "straights" have the right to be where the fuck we want...so what, we cant drink out of the same water fountain too i guess cause that may cause some violence too huh? lol

#61 "And FWIW, I maintain that us straight folk in Capitol Hill generally hate the clientele of places like Sugar and Club Lagoon too. I certainly don't want to associate with these fuckwits. That's why I don't live in Belltown."

--yeah because 70-80% clienteles are a lot of colored folks i guess huh? so you must be the dumb fuck who has a confederate flag on your porch...hey dumbass, you still live in the city...move your ass to the country side if you dont wanna associate yourself with us "fuckwits"...well thanks for the compliment though

and last but not least, whatever ideas "you people" have--the reason i say "you people" is because we were categorized as "you people" so how does that feel?--anyways, this is just gonna stir more violence

Yo, Son was one of the city's funnest mixed nights until alot of the gay regulars stopped attending.

There was never any event that sparked that. No violent turning point. Just an unannounced performance by Devin The Dude that drew in a darker crowd as I recall.

Diversity is awesome until you get scared back into your victim role, right? How much tolerance can you stand, right?

This imperfect world with no guarantees sure does have a weird sense of humor sometimes.

"i don't think it discriminates against straights to point out that straight men are generally the ones who end up in the most fights and gun battles, who keep a place from being "safe." it's not all straight men. but a subset. it's gendered violence, macho morons, and it does have the unfortunate tendency of spilling over into homophobic violence even if in this case it didn't."

Let's try a little experiment:

"i don't think it discriminates against Muslims to point out that Muslims are generally the ones who end up committing most acts of terrorism, who keep a place from being "safe." it's not all Muslims. but a subset. it's religious violence, self-righteous morons, and it does have the unfortunate tendency of spilling over into anti-Western violence even if in this case it didn't."

Sound good?

Let's try another:

"i don't think it discriminates against blacks to point out that blacks are generally the ones who end up in the most fights and gun battles, who keep a place from being "safe." it's not all blacks. but a subset. it's racial violence, macho morons, and it does have the unfortunate tendency of spilling over into racial violence even if in this case it didn't."

Better?

Where there is booze, there will be violence. The ability to inhibit your inhibitions is the great thing and terrible thing about alcohol. It's a social lubricant, but it also causes drunken fights.

And, please, please don't interpret this as a troll comment, but if we had a good handgun ban in place, wouldn't this be a non-issue anyhow?

@65-

The OP wasn't making anything up... A guy really did get shot outside of Sugar on Friday night... It was not a random shooting, and it was not a gay hate crime. It was because of a gang conflict. The victim was not killed.

People of color, gang members included, get shot all of the time in Seattle and no one blinks an eye. It doesn't make the news unless they get killed, usually, and even then it usually only gets a snippet. No one pays any mind to it... Why? Institutionalized racism is part of it... The fact that it appears to be a "those people" thing, because of the perception that as a young person of color they must have deserved it, must have brought it on themselves somehow...

This incident is only getting press on the Slog and in The Stranger because it happened on the Hill. Had this happened in the CD or South End, no one would have blinked an eye...

Also, what is up with all the people claiming that Sugar is a "STRAIGHTS ONLY" club?! WTF does that even mean? To have a club on Capitol Hill, does it have to be a "GAYS ONLY" club? And everytime I've ever been to Sugar, there have been lots of gays... Gays who might want something other than the Neighbors or R-Place scene, but still want to dance. Gays that like hip hop. And, while you're all making broad, sweeping generalizations, Sugar is still the same old (well, not that old, but you know what I mean) Sugar that it's always been. Fuck, Thursdays are "House Night" and Saturdays are something like "Pleasure Boys." If that's not gay as fuck, I don't know what is.

shit@ 72 fyi
r place has hip hop and r&b on weekend nights both friday and saturday for four years now.. plenty of gays but no shootings there.. none..in four years..

perhaps the largest reason i like capitol hill is that the community on whole is so welcoming. as a straight male, however, reading this thread has the unfortunate effect of making me feel a little less welcome. just something to consider.

also, i've been assaulted while the attacker threw insults implying he thought i was gay. so, i guess even in a strange, small way, this is not just about gay victims their macho straight attackers. as mentioned previously, this is about unaccpetable violent behavior and the attitudes that accompany and allow it.

People who can't manage their customers shouldn't be operating in the neighborhood. They should be asked to get their shit together or move their shops to a more suitable environment like the zoo down the hill where nobody gives a crap if you are an amateur operator who can't manage your drunks. There isn't any inalienable right to run your business like an asshole or shit on your neighbors unless the community allows it to happen. Despite some of the more enlightened comments, it ain't about diversity. It's about professionally handling drunk people in the boozetorium. Most of the establishments on the hill aren't as inept at this as a few are - ergo a popular destination for the hard drinkin civilized crowd. Weed out the jerks.

As more phobic dipshits keep coming uphill because there are more good establishments here, and more are coming, do each other a favor and consistently remind them where they can go drink in peace without getting freaked out by the people who live in the neighborhood and where they can go fight each other without interruptions.

First of all. Please refrain from pointing fingers and putting the blame on anyone you can pinpoint from a mile away.

yes...it is unfortunate that the occurence happened, and yes it is sad, but the blame rests on those who caused the dispute in the first place. It doesn't have anything to do with who's straight or who's gay. What needs to happen is that everyone..."queer" or straight needs to stop and think...leave their guns and drama at home and just "chill".

Look when people go out..they expect to have a good time...party it up...relax. Some people just forget to do those things. It doesn't matter what the demographic is...or who is involved in the dispute. The only thing that matters is how we can stop it.

And I take offense to the "people who can't manage their customers shouldn't be operating in the neighborhood" line. As a matter of fact I am one of those "managers". my group helps run sugar on fridays, and we do truly feel for the situation, but the show must go on. We run a business, and unfortunately "shit happens", but its business. We've been running nightlife entertainment for over 4 years, and when you mix alchohol and emotions..."shit happens" where ever you go. Whether its on the hill or some place like timbuktu. We never asked for this, or pressed it to happen. You have to realize...we can't control what people say, what they do, or how they act. We're only human and so are they. To be able to do so would take an act of God, and we're not God. All we can hope for is that everyone enjoys themselves and has a good time. Whatever they do outside our club is not within our control.

Instead of pointing your fingers and putting the blame on us. Why don't you help us..help us figure out how to fix this. give us suggestions to make these nights better and safer for us all. work with us so that we can all have a good night.

Every time something happens. the first thing on everyones mind is "segregation". why don't we stop that...because its the main thing that seems to be causing all the problems in the first place. why don't we just all come together for once and start making things work.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

Wow... The gay communities response to this is pretty radical.. You would think after all the hate and prejudice that the community has gone through would make you all a little more understanding.. How can you just judge the "straight" community by the way we dress, the music we listen too, or our sexual preference?? How can you say that the "straight" community is the problem.. Not all Straight men are out to beat up people.. we are all out to have a good time and enjoy the night.. Sexual preference may vary but we're all out for the same thing..

There are always going to be the ones out of the group that cause problems.. Gay or straight.. I know gay guys that hate the world and go out causing problems.. So it's kind of a back and forth thing.. How can you say we straight people dont "belong" in your community?? Especially when most of us out here fight for your rights to be part of ours.. Seattle is one of the most "accepting" cities around for you community.. We're not tellin you to leave seattle.. people should be able to go where ever they wanna go.. Get over the whole "who's better then who" kick.. Sugars doesn't ban gays from coming in.. They honor them as patrons of their establishment.. The staff and security look out for you all just as much as they look out for the straights.. Rather then separating people by race, religion or sexual preference to "resolve" the issues, Why dont we all work together to find a fix as a whole?? It would benefit the people of the community more.. How would the gay community be viewed by the rest of Seattle if they separated themselves completely and said that straight people dont belong in your community?? How do you think people would react?? Nothing positive will come from your actions.. People will "fight" back against it and it would create a great amount of hate an malice towards your community... If you Truly DO care about your community and the people that reside there, Gay or straight.. then you would realize that your prejudice actions will not be taken lightly and repercussions would be severe.. Jus something to think about.. People need to learn to be people.. Everyone also needs to realize that not everything's gonna be all gum drops and flowers.. Bad things happen.. the question is how much worse do you want it to get?? if you all take action the way your talking about doing so, it's gonna ruin your community.. if you dont see that then I'm sorry.. Do what ever you feel you need to do... But stop thinking as individuals and start thinking as a community.. you dont want a bunch of angry people coming through your community after all this looking for revenge.. It's not worth it.. We can all live, party, work and jus plain kick it together..

Wtf.people get you f@!&in facts straight I'm sick of hearing you babies pointing the finger @ certain groups or cultures when something bad happens, shit happens. It doesn't matter matter if u are gay or straight it all about how u deal with it an learn from it. So get off your high horse.

I’ve been a promoter in this city for many years now. I have no sympathy for the owners or mangers of Sugar. As a promoter, I know what promoters and DJs to work with. I understand my crowd. I know many of the people that go to my parties. There are some clubs that come and go (Juan O’Riley's, X factor, does anyone remember 420?). My conclusion is that new club owners are not familiar the promoters they are working with, therefore, what crowd they are attracting. When it comes to hip-hop and rap, you need to know who you’re working with! I am familiar with the production company that promotes the Friday night of the shooting. They are a violent crowd and should not be throwing parties. They have produced parties at several clubs, and the problems move with them. The club owners should be held responsible for who they choose to work with. The promoters of weekly nights should have their business license suspended (assuming they have one) if they prove themselves unsafe.

I’m not really sure how the whole gay thing has anything to do with this, but I like the catfights, grrr…

bob:

Let me see, you must not promote anymore i guess?? so sit down, shut the fuck up!!

bob:

Let me see, you must not promote anymore i guess?? so sit down & shut the fuck up!!