Comments on Gregoire: No Surface/Transit Option
The bitch isn't getting my vote again.
How about every single SLOG reader go to her website right now http://www.governor.wa.gov/contact/default.asp
and give her this simple message:
A surface/transit option is more affordable, it's more sustainable, it's gentler on existing businesses, it can foster a vibrant downtown in our state's largest city. Many cities have pursued a similar strategy, and none have wished to have their highway back. If you dig in your heels and force a 1950s solution on Seattle, your political career is over.
What surface + transit proponents are proposing:
1. Tear down viaduct.
2. ?????
3. Transportation problem solved!
Well, that's what it looks like right now. We need to do better than that. Especially if we're a "world-class city."
God bless that nice Christine Gregoire. I really hope Nickels decides to challenge her in next year primary. I'll be laughing myself silly at the Gregoire victory party.
Now we know Gregoire only wanted to serve one term!
I like this BITCH far better than any other BITCH in Olympia, and as for the sexist shit heads whose only purpose in life is to insult women in politics with defaming slogans--
go fuck yourself -- sure vote for the first homophobic, neo con warmonger who comes along - just to spite yourself.
Liked the tunnel, can live with the rebuild, get it moving Chris. Take charge, even if the slim balls call you names.
I'll vote for her again but I'm far less likely to drive around all day and late into the night trying to verify absentee signatures again if there is another close recount because she took Seattle vote for granted.
Her and her offices PR on this is horrible and very arrogant.
...the definition of arrogance in Washington State politics is assuming the universe revolves around Seattle.
Especially Downtown Seattle.
"....the only environmentally responsible option for our waterfront."
What an absolutely hilarious and completely unsubstantiated statement.
When you have to reach this far, you've lost any and all credence. How pathetic!
swell @2:
Thank you for the link. Here's what I wrote:
I'd like to praise you for making the right decision on the viaduct. After studying the issue a lot closer in the past few months, I've come to the conclusion that the viaduct rebuild is the best option that this state's taxpayers can afford.
Viaduct opponents seem to consider the welfare of a few real-estate developers to trump the interests of everyone else in this state -- not Seattle, mind you, but the entire state -- in having traffic be able to move through the city of Seattle.
Now, if said real-estate developers had been willing to underwrite the cost difference between a viaduct and a six-lane tunnel, I'd be waving the pom-poms for a tunnel. But they'd rather shove the cost onto someone else, and I don't see why we should subordinate state transportation policy to some developer's desire to buy himself a bigger yacht.
Viaduct opponents have had six years to come up with a plan and a way to pay for it, and they've failed. Their strategy has been only to throw a variety of plans at the wall (tunnel, tunnel lite, surface + transit) and see if any of them stick. None of them have.
Governor, it's time to rebuild the viaduct. You know and I know that rebuilding the viaduct does not mean that we give up on trying to increase transit options through Seattle. It does mean that we're going to grapple with reality today rather than trying to impose fantasy solutions based purely on ideology. We've seen how well that's worked in Iraq.
It's like she's sick of being governor and wants to ensure that she's not going to get reelected.
cool. anybody else voting Green next fall?
SLOG Field Guide to Seattle Viaduct Debate
{Name}
Description
Patron Saint
Typical Post
Prevalence
Key Fact(s) Ignored
Secret Hope
* Roadus Retrofittus
Description:
A curmudgeon who believes the AWV is absolutely critical, perhaps because of an ill advised decision in the past to move to West Seattle. Wants things to stay just they way they are. Possibly considers the Viaduct a work of art -- like the leaning tower of Pisa -- worthy of preservation in it's current form.
Patron Saint:
Peter Sherwin
Typical Post:
Mixed co-opting or thrashing of Trasitus Surfusus.
"But not an issue if we just fix what we've got and build surface and transit for the future."
Prevalence:
At least 1 -12 comments per post.
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
The necessary seawall repairs.
Even if the structure is retrofitted above ground it'll probably tip over during the next earthquake.
It'll cost billions.
Secret Hope:
That everything in Seattle can stay exactly as it is and that all the newcomers can be scared off.
* Rodus Rebuilus
Description:
Believes that the AWV is absolutely essential, most likely due to an ill advised decision to move to West Seattle. Considers using transit to get to and from work a fever dream of kool-aid drinking cultists.
Other subspecies is a resentful non-Seattlite dealing with feelings of inferiority. Wants nothing else than to stick Seattle with a horrific monstrosity.
Patron Saint:
Christine Gregoire
Typical Post:
"You hippies! Without the Viaduct, cats and dogs will live together, frogs will rain from the sky, and my commute from West Seattle to Downtown could take as long as 20 minutes!
"Yes, so San Fransisco, New York, Milwaukee [other major urban area] has ripped down their viaduct and survived. Seattle is completely different from any other major urban area..."
Prevalence:
3-6 comments per post
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
No empiric proof that Seattle needs a double-decker urban highway through downtown to function.
Every other urban area, large and small, that has ripped down viaducts and survived.
A new viaduct will have no views, be twice as wide and be finished right about the time gas hits $6 a gallon.
Secret Hope:
That everything can stay exactly the same for all eternity and that all the newcomers to Seattle get fed up and leave.
* Rodus Tunnelus
Description:
Want to keep their private driveway from West Seattle to Downtown, but also make everyone else happy.
Patron Saint: Mayor Greg Nickles.
Typical Post:
"This is nothing like the Big Dig."
Prevalence:
A dying off species. At most one comment per post.
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
$4-8 billion before cost overruns.
Digging in brackish landfill at possible archaeological sites might prove problematic.
Tunnel ends at Pike Place Market and leaves Queen Anne and SLU cut off from one another.
Secret Hope:
That money grows on trees or Seattle voters are that gullible...
* Rodus Bridgus
Description:
Possibly has visited SF or NYC, and seen bridges. Willing to at least consider that some people need to drive, and a North-South bypass route could unload some traffic from downtown and the waterfront.
Patron Saint:
Jensen Inspector
Typical Post:
"The idea is to reclaim the land for parks, homes, business and transit, and NOT to completely surrender it to motor vehicles. This can only be realized by designing and building a cable stayed bay bridge."
Prevalence:
1-2 Comments per Post
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
The Port of Seattle and Boeing Field
Idiocy of local politicians.
Secret Hope:
That WSDOT and the city can get their heads out of their asses long enough to at least seriously consider this compromise solution.
* Trasitus Surfusus
Description:
Most likely a newcomer to Seattle. Has at least visited places like New York, Boston, Chicago, or San Francisco and used public transit. Possible has grown up in some urban shithole -- Detroit, LA, or Houston for example -- with a fantastic freeway system. May commute by walking, cycling or busing.
Patron Saint:
ECB or Ron Sims
Typical Post:
"The damn thing is going to be gone for a decade during construction and we're all going to adjust. Why not just rip it down and spend the money on expanding light rail to places like Ballard, West Seattle, and points more distant? It's worked in _____ {some other urban area}.
Prevalence:
Generally the original post + 3-6 comments.
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
Idiocy of local politicians.
WSDOT is a *highway* building department
Washington State Constitution forbids spending of gas tax dollars on transit.
Secret Hope:
To live in Manhattan but with mountains -- rather than New Jersey -- next door.
* Off topicus
Description:
Has some other topic they really really want to talk about rather than the viaduct.
Patron Saint:
Uhh.
Typical Post:
"Darfur! People are dying in Darfur RIGHT NOW."
"Slack jawed yokels are going to drive in circles on the Kitsap peninsula thanks to YOUR lawmakers!"
Prevalence:
0 - 12 comments per post.
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
Uhhh, the Viaduct decision is coming up soon.
Secret Hope:
To get a post on Darfur or Nascar...
* Realist Defetus
Description:
Take Trasitus Surfusus and add 10 - 20 years experience with Seattle-area political process.
Patron Saint:
Fnarf
Typical Post:
"OF COURSE transit would be better, but..."
Prevalence:
0 -2 comments per post.
Key Fact(s) Ignored:
None.
Secret Hope:
That local politicians suddenly show intelligence.
YAy! Let's all vote green. Then we will have four years of Rossi. Sounds good to me! Look how well that worked out for Bush/Gore 2000!
Also Gregiore is ugly. Let's call her Grinchoire.
God, you people are ridiculous.
If I call Chopp an "asshole", is that somehow anti-man?? Yeah -- didn't think so...
Gregoire may or may not be a bitch, but she is acting like one, and she is showing her true colors as just another political hack.
I have *never* voted for a Republican, but if this keeps up and the Republicans find someone remotely moderate (for god's sake, ditch Rossi)I'd jump ship in a heartbeat..
And you, Seattle Hippie, should take your own advice...you fucking clown.
She's going to get challenged by a Democrat. Jay Inslee, this is your chance.
This isn't news, by the way. It's been her (shitty) position all along. She won't have any choice if voters vote "NO" on the viaduct on March 13. If she ignores a vote against a rebuild, she can kiss her reelection hopes goodbye, because nobody in Seattle will vote for her.
I'm not convinced Rossi would be a worse governor than Gregoire. I bet he'd be more willing to consider points of view that he didn't already agree with.
Ripping out a total of 8 lanes of 50-60mph+ highway and replacing it with maybe 40mph+ avenue and saying "use the buses instead" is not going to go well.
I sorta like the sound of Jay Inslee challenging her in the primaries, at least at first blush -- anyone got his number?
Rossi would "listen" to whatever the campaign contributions tell him. Therefore, he would support the Tunnel and its accompanying condo money.
If you are willing to put in a governor that would veto all other important socially progressive issues just because you disagree with Gregoire on the viaduct, then good riddance.
I feel kinda dirty pimping my own agenda, but it worked for that NASCAR guy, so I'll link here again:
http://andrewhitchcock.org/viaduct/
I'm interested to see which option would win in a ranked vote. Currently the surface+transit option is in the lead with a simple majority, so obviously the posters in this thread haven't voted yet :)
As for Gregoire, I think she is shooting herself in the foot with this. I thought Democrats were supposed to be "progressive".
As for Gregoire, I think she is shooting herself in the foot with this. I thought Democrats were supposed to be "progressive".
Let's see - I support the one idea that hasn't been studied because it's the best idea. Didn't the city study showed that the S&T plan is the worst short term for the environment and WSDOT's said it didn't work.
If S&T is to work, real transit will need to be built - not just extra busses - and that will take time.
ECB - Please do some research - make an argument based on some facts - tell us how the express lanes will be turned into 2 way all the time (why not just close them down), see what people think about trucks in the HOV lanes, give us an idea what streets or lanes on those streets will be trucks only, calculate what the capital and operating costs will be for the 25,000 new bus riders, explain how the mercer mess will be cleaned up and how that will help ease the loss of the viaduct, explain how we will better connect to AWB and how as a 4 lane street it will accommodate the new traffic, where tolling will be put on the Federal I-5, where a watertaxi to Ballard will land, and how better Link connections and luring more riders to transit will be done.
The list above is part of PWC's "plan" and you say their $1.2B number is the most cited - do your job and research their plan - remember that utility moves will cost $300-500M and the seawall is probably $300 plus the other work on 519 etc. etc.
I do not want a 2500 year rebuild but S&T isn't ready for prime time.
Golob wrote:
"Key Fact(s) Ignored:
The necessary seawall repairs.
Even if the structure is retrofitted above ground it'll probably tip over during the next earthquake.
It'll cost billions."
The repair plan studied by WSDOT at $2.3B includes all the work included in the Rebuild or the Tunnel options including the seawall. They only studied the Gray proposal so one would assume that if they expanded their scope, they would be able to do better. And the 2.3B is for a 2500 standard.
Are these some of the same people who declared Maria Cantwell dead because she did not line up exactly with their script for her re election?
Whining cult like believers, no political skills, no depth, and six years with no better plan.
Nickels tried, played it out. No deal. Time is over, THE STATE WILL REBUILD THE STATE HIWAY WITH STATE MONEY, AND THE SUPREME COURT WITH THE EMINENT DOMAIN PAPERS IN THEIRR HANDS BACKING DOT.
Peter Steinbrook will lay in front of the dozers for the media.
The Stanger will groan and complain ad nauseum, a la monorail.
By taking charge of the viaduct and backing Seattle down, then passing health care for kids, Gregoire just INSURES her re election.
Of course the Greens can take Carl Rove's advice and money.....
If I call Chopp an "asshole", is that somehow anti-man?? Yeah -- didn't think so...
No, it's not anti-man, dumbass, because men and women both have assholes. It's not gender specific. "Bitch," "cunt," etc are gender specific and exist as part of real-world patriarchy. It would be closer (but still way off) if you suggested calling Chopp a "dick," but even that's not the same because, in patriarchy, male sexual organs are supposed to be powerful or some shit whereas womens' are presumably weak or loathsome.
You are a tool, GG, and you can take that as anti-man if you wish.
The Governor is getting bad advice and acting on it.
The best way to do nothing about the Viaduct is to try to force feed Seattle a huge new freeway it doesn't want and doesn't need.
She should shut up, tell the state highway engineers to stay quiet, and wait for the vote on March 13.
Between now and then her engineers shoudl spend less time at news conferences and more time designing a lower cost solution that will work.
The Governor is getting bad advice and acting on it.
The best way to do nothing about the Viaduct is to try to force feed Seattle a huge new freeway it doesn't want and doesn't need.
She should shut up, tell the state highway engineers to stay quiet, and wait for the vote on March 13.
Between now and then her engineers shoudl spend less time at news conferences and more time designing a lower cost solution that will work.
The Governor is getting bad advice and acting on it.
The best way to do nothing about the Viaduct is to try to force feed Seattle a huge new freeway it doesn't want and doesn't need.
She should shut up, tell the state highway engineers to stay quiet, and wait for the vote on March 13.
Between now and then her engineers should spend less time at news conferences and more time designing a lower cost solution that will work.
sIR tHOR COULD ALSO BE sIR tHRICE
Hey Grandy -- you can take your place on the fucking clowns list with Hippie now if you like...
"in patriarchy, male sexual organs are supposed to be powerful or some shit whereas womens' are presumably weak or loathsome."
Wasn't aware that "bitch" was a particular anatomical feature...thanks for clearing that up. What a bunch of drivel -- you clearly have no clue what you are talking about so just go back to your homework for gender studies at Seattle Central.
By the way, you won't look so stupid if you learn how to correctly use the comma.
good grief - is that what they say when you finally take off your under shorts?
clown is such a nice word - who uses it as an insult?
or maybe comma clown is heavy duty? I missed something at Harvard
You are an absolute fucking sexist pig. Still time to get a clue.
If Gregoire was going to dictate that there is only one option then why has she led the city on and then, just 3 weeks ago (or thereabouts) insist the city vote? She basicaly is having the city spend money on a vote only to tell us that there is only one option.
Repair, repair, repair...and buy the city, and state, time to improve transit options. It is the best compromise between a surface option for which the city is completely unprepared for tranist-wise and a HUMONGOUS new monstrosity right on the waterfront.
And just one more point...I realize that there are developers that would love the tunnel or surface option because it would improve the views for their properties. However, most of the people advocating either of those options just want to get rid of the viaduct to open up the waterfront for everyone's enjoyment. I doubt developers post to Slog.
CHZA @ 18 said:
"Ripping out a total of 8 lanes of 50-60mph+ highway and replacing it with maybe 40mph+ avenue and saying "use the buses instead" is not going to go well."
Um... Isn't "Highway" 99 about 40 MPH at either end of that (often congested) brief section through the central city? Why is it useful to have three lanes racing at 60 MPH into a two-lane, 40 MPH tunnel? And there are stop lights just south of Spokane St. and all the way North starting at Green Lake. So for this one little stretch of faux freeway you are willing to sacrifice the livability of our city?
@34:
First of all, Governor Gregoire hasn't led anyone on. She insisted on a vote between the viaduct and the six-lane tunnel. Mayor Nickels and his lackeys on the city council knew that once people checked the price tags, the six-lane tunnel would get stomped.
So Nickels dumped the six-lane plan and went with the four-lane "tunnel lite." There was only one little teensy problem with that: Gregoire had already said, back in December, that the four-lane tunnel didn't provide for HOV or public transit options. You know, what surface + transit proponents claim is a very essential part of any viaduct replacement plan.
Governor Gregoire very properly called shenanigans on that charade. (Think, people, think: If tunnel lite was so great, why didn't the mayor and the council run with it in the first place?)
Now, like a baseball manger madly substituting pinch-hitters in the ninth inning of a 12-3 loss, the viaduct haters have declared that we've never been at war with Eurasia -- errrrrr, surface + transit is the only way to go.
I'd be in favor of repair + prepare myself if I had any confidence in our "world-class" leaders that they could find their butts with both hands and a compass. But they don't. We've spent six years fighting over a 1.4-mile stretch of roadway; by the time we figure out surface + transit for the whole area, the new viaduct will be ready to come down anyhow.
And, no, developers don't post to Slog. Just their enablers -- car haters, Green Party apparatchiks, neurotics with inferiority complexes about whether Seattle is a "world-class city," Belltown transplants from NY and LA, and trendy hipsters who probably haven't even registered to vote. Throw in greedy developers, and you've got what the military calls a target-rich environment for Governor Gregoire to look good against.
@34:
One other thing: Anyone who thinks that the waterfront is going to be opened up for public enjoyment under a surface + transit plan doesn't know how this "world-class city" works. The end result won't be a pretty park with empty boulevards. It'll be a clogged, traffic-choked mess in between concrete canyons of condos with maybe one wide spot of concrete to serve as Greg Nickels "Park."
World Class Cynic done gone and hit the nail (s) right on the head.
"Seattle Hippie," you probably aren't even in Seattle.
The plan that drives a bigger fuckin freeway straight over the water front is so lacking in civic vision and a sense of Washington's beauty that it can't be defended unless one believed it was going to be necessary to moved armored forces north to defend the outskirts of the city against Soviet land attack. I never thought any in this age would do something to separate this city even MORE from its waterfront. Hell, we can build a state of the art baseball stadium and state of the art foot ball stadium, but we are going to put in a 1950s freeway instead of an improved water front access?
Its sounding crazier to me all the time.
Cynic at 36.
The charade is saying she is going to ignore the vote before we even have one, even though she is the one who asked for it. Repeat, she is the one who said we had to vote.
@40:
Pay attention. She asked for a vote between the viaduct and the six-lane tunnel. Nickels scrapped that plan and went with the four-lane fraud that Gregoire had already rejected because it didn't provide for public transit options.
Put simply, Gregoire wanted Seattle to vote between A and B, and the mayor decided to throw in C even though he knew the governor would say no.
The blame for the charade belongs entirely with Nickels and the council members who support him. Period. Anything other interpretation of the situation is simply not based in reality.
@39:
We are not separated from the waterfront. It is possible to actually walk under the viaduct to the waterfront. It may shock you to know that thousands of people do so every single day. I have even done it myself.
Three-dimensional space. Learn it, live it, love it.
@37/38: Agreed.
Some people think the Elliott Bay waterfront is some pristine piece of property. It's not. It's been polluted, has ships and ferries running through and around it and is a working port area, both on land and sea. It ain't gonna be the backside of Orcas Island no matter what pretty pictures are put up on some websites.
Like I've posted before, if the surface/transit/carless people really want to do something right- it's to now engage in directly planning the next 40 years of transit so that there's a possibility down the track of doing what they want. We're 30-40 years behind the 8 ball and while we'll never gain back that time maybe this will cause some of the process queens to pull their head from their ass and start doing something about it.
Sound Transit and RTID are going to lose their upcoming vote if they stupidly leave behind the several hundred thousand people that live west of Highway 99 out of their long term plans. Right now that's what's happening and I'm sure Shoreline, Burien, and the residents of Seattle that will be impacted will take note.
Mirrir Mirron Off the Wall-
I just went out my back door and pissed in a rivulet caused by this sweet rain which started again today - all the waters will be in Elliot Bay soon enough - and yes, NATIVE sprout.
I think Gregoire will be the best gov. this state has seen in 40 years. When people attack her with their right wing crap - makes me angry.
Believe it or not, some of us practical types predicted the place we are in two years ago. Nickels had a pipe dream, yes the real thing. And the state has the money and the DOT.
Coffman above makes a great point as have others - quit carping and get mass transit in all its forms underway co- ordinated in five or six counties. The only solution for the next generations.
Maybe high speed monorails from Bellingham to Vancouver.....at least extending light rail in all directions and more buses and more streetcars, and more...more...more
To get cars small, tax horsepower. The French did that in post war - no American autos at all, too expensive as in gas and taxes.
Voila, le Deux Cheveux.
Refine and grow Flex Car systems. Perfect solution of many, many folks. Use that plan three times a month or so - when I need a pickup - other wise would own a junker second vehicle pickup..
Oops, need to piss again, thanks to Rolling Rock.
Make the waterfront more dreary instead of less dreary because everyone can always bop of to Orcas on the sea plane. Yeh, right.
Yes, I too have walked under the viaduct countless times. The waterfront is the logical extension of tourist and local downtown activities. It is an important part of the experience of Seattle as a destination. There is even large monetary value to enhancing its charms rather than diminishing them.
The problem is that Gregoire has ALREADY said she won't take no for an answer.
Maybe she and Nickels are involved in a pissy power struggle, but I'm not impressed by how she is handling her end. I've come to expect Nickels to be an asshole who makes little attempt to persuade the public to his positions. I'm sincerely disappointed to find Gregoire and her staff rising to the occasion to show they can be just as assoholic and arrogant.
Coffman:
It seems clear to me that the "transit hippies" (sort of like the ultimately correct anti-Iraq-war hippies) have been trying for years by lobbying and voting to move forward specific plans and policies but have been systematically thwarted. You can't blame Seattle hippies for the purely political and willful refusal to move forward transportation planning in Olympia. Now we think we finally are going to get some serious transportation planning in Olympia and Gregoire decides for her second trick that its a great opportunity for a Sister Soulja moment where she shows everyone that she is sooo unbeholden to the Seattle Democrat that she can tell the poor saps she is going to ignore them even before they have said what they want. As if it's Seattle rather than the fuckin gridlock state Republicans who drove out Boeing. Wow.
P.S. I've run out of passion and mental reason for this thread. So many shills can't all be wrong... I guess.
Still, for those of you who think a new bigger freeway monstrosity is going to get you increased use and expansion of mass transit...well, won't it be the first time ever?
For those who just want to slap down Seattlites, everything that makes Seattle less attractive visually and as a tourist destination takes away from the state overall. No matter what anyone says, Seattle is the primary conceptual gateway to the rest of the state for tourism and business.
World Class Cynic (#9): The real "fantasy solution" is to keep thinking we can build our way out of traffic, and drive, drive drive until the oil runs out and the seas rise into Bangladesh. That is the very kind of thinking that in fact got us into the war you allegedly oppose, in Iraq.
Mirror, I am a Seattlite. And Seattle is a great place to live, warts and all.
This state is more progressive than most in the US. The Dems are in control so there's no blaming the R majority anymore. If the "hippies" want to bring along moderates to create a better city and region, it has to be done in a systematic manner. It can't be "tear it down" and then we'll see what happens. My opinion is that the surface/transit people have the right idea in the wrong order. Get the infrastructure in place first, then tear out the old stuff so we can make better things and places.
Others have claimed Seoul, SF and NY have torn out their waterfront or un-needed freeways. The key difference between us and them is that they put in different modes of transit before tearing that stuff out. And when they tore it out, they added even more. Right now we have one mode of public transit- Buses. Even the beginnings of a multi modal land system (I'm not counting ferries as they are unique to our region on several different levels) are not in place yet, and there is still disagreement as to the next steps. Gregoire and Nickels and many others are against what the surface people propose because the infrastructure they claim will take its place is not only not there or being started, it hasn't even been decided upon. That is putting the cart before the horse and it is why The Stranger, the PWC and the others on that side of the issue are on a losing side.
In my opinion, if the PWC, The Stranger and others want true public transport and real things happening in the region, they'd be talking about the political process of changing how we finance those things and making those changes. Discuss how the legislature can carry its weight. Discuss and carry through the constitutional changes so that we can appropriately use a mix of transportation fund money. Call our federal legislators on the carpet when they state we shouldn't expect anything from Washington. But that would be thinking outside the box, instead of engaging in the constant whining that goes on. And that is why very little has been moved forward in the past 40 years.
Mirror and Grant: Not a lot of time here as I finished a paper last night and now need to head to work.
First of all, we are not talking about building a new freeway. We are talking about replacing one. Get that straight. I'm not in favor of new freeways, but it doesn't logically follow that destroying existing freeways is any sort of solution, either. "Cars are icky" is about as much of a transportation plan as Bush had in Iraq, and if you don't know that, then I pity you.
Mirror talks about "a chance to get some serious transportation planning in Olympia." That's what Gregoire provided, much to your dismay. Madly bouncing around from tunnel to tunnel lite to surface + transit in the space of a month after having had six years to figure things out is not serious transportation planning, and God help us if it is ever considered serious transportation planning.
Other than that, I think Dave covered everything else. Including Seattle being a great place to live, warts and all.
If bitch is OK for my mom, it's ok for me.
46,47: So where's the transit?
Oh, Dave. you hit on a good one.
Planning and funding, like passing on federal money for the first big real monorail system in America? Could have chanted model project thousand of times in many offices.
Asked why there was NO fed money in this billion on billions project, a potential trans model for every city in the US, it was always a mumble of mumbles answer. The cockiest was that they were thinking about it for the next phases- oh well.
The fear of the cost might have been mitigated by a billion of fed start up cash.
Instead a single tax on a single source, setting up an opposition at once, rich car buyers, many potential non users and screwy numbers to boot.
The bus tunnel which is not under retro fit was built with 90 per cent fed money in the first phase. What a difference.
Oh, Dave. you hit on a good one.
Planning and funding, like passing on federal money for the first big real monorail system in America? Could have chanted model project thousand of times in many offices.
Asked why there was NO fed money in this billion on billions project, a potential trans model for every city in the US, it was always a mumble of mumbles answer. The cockiest was that they were thinking about it for the next phases- oh well.
The fear of the cost might have been mitigated by a billion of fed start up cash.
Instead a single tax on a single source, setting up an opposition at once, rich car buyers, many potential non users and screwy numbers to boot.
The bus tunnel which is not under retro fit was built with 90 per cent fed money in the first phase. What a difference.
I'm beginning to think Gregoire's deliberately pissing off Seattle to gain sympathy from anti-Seattle voters. She figures we'll vote for her anyway, and in the general election she's right. I'd love to see Inslee challenge her in the primary.
As for the AWV, everybody agrees we need real transit and surface improvements, whether or not we build an expanded highway in downtown. So everyone should get behind a proposal to put in expanded and accelerated light rail, including the 99 corridor, and make the surface improvements that are common to all plans. Now. Let's do what we agree on, then see how traffic is affected, at which point we can argue over the best solution to supplement the rail and surface improvements.
Transit Plus Streets is a necessary part of any solution. We should stop looking at it as one of three possible solutions, and begin seeing it as the common ground it is.
Until we make a decison on the viaduct, we can do minimal repairs, not designed to survive the 500-year earthquake, but enough to make it about as safe as it was prior to the 2001 earthquake. That standard won't cost billions. The state can take its current pot of money for other projects, and for its part of the surface improvements for routes feeding into the viaduct. There's no reason we can't build the rail while the current viaduct is still up, and then reevaluate based on early ridership.
To all those who said let's vote Green - be careful what you wish for - they did that in the last federal election in Canada in BC - and managed to end up electing conservatives and zero greens by doing so. Results matter.
"To all those who said let's vote Green - be careful what you wish for - they did that in the last federal election in Canada in BC - and managed to end up electing conservatives and zero greens by doing so. Results matter."
I'm not voting Green, but in the next Democratic primary I will vote for absolutely anything that has more intelligence than a pile of manure and is not named "Christine".
That's nice.
Get the fuck over it, Seattle. People from off your little island use SR-99 too. It's not your toy to fuck up. You need to share.
Jesus. Seriously. You guys *do* know that people live outside Seattle, and tend to drive on roads, right?
Maybe you'd be happy with an SR-99 bridge running down the middle of the Sound so that it wouldn't invade your precious borders.
BTW, in case you've been living on the island too long, SR stands for "state route", not "seattle ruled".
um, seattle isn't an island.
...it just acts like one. Call it an isthmus with a Napoleon complex, perhaps?
Keeping in mind that the rebuilt viaduct will be torn down about 20 years after it's completed, possibly before it's paid for, is it still a wise investment?
99 has very little relevance to people outside of Seattle and its immediate suburbs. The bulk of traffic on the viaduct is not going to or coming from Everett or Tacoma. Most of it is going from north Seattle neighborhoods to downtown or West Seattle, or the other way. I suppose there's also the traffic from Bainbridge and Kitsap ferries, but it's not that significant. There is some freight that uses the corridor, but it's a minority of the traffic and can be accommodated by just about any solution.
Seattle and its residents have every right to demand a solution that focuses on them, since they're mostly the ones using the highway. It's the state that has no real interest except spending Seattle's gas tax money and keeping WSDOT's budget as high as possible.
People complaining about Seattle's attitudes really have an attitude problem of their own. 10% of the state lives within the city limits; 50% of the state lives in the Sound Transit district, which coincides with the Seattle metro area. Even those who live outside of the metro area proper are culturally and economically tied to what happens here. Deal.
99 has very little relevance to people outside of Seattle and its immediate suburbs. The bulk of traffic on the viaduct is not going to or coming from Everett or Tacoma. Most of it is going from north Seattle neighborhoods to downtown or West Seattle, or the other way. I suppose there's also the traffic from Bainbridge and Kitsap ferries, but it's not that significant. There is some freight that uses the corridor, but it's a minority of the traffic and can be accommodated by just about any solution.
Seattle and its residents have every right to demand a solution that focuses on them, since they're mostly the ones using the highway. It's the state that has no real interest except spending Seattle's gas tax money and keeping WSDOT's budget as high as possible.
People complaining about Seattle's attitudes really have an attitude problem of their own. 10% of the state lives within the city limits; 50% of the state lives in the Sound Transit district, which coincides with the Seattle metro area. Even those who live outside of the metro area proper are culturally and economically tied to what happens here. Deal.
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