Not sure why the dig on Zune was included in this post. The Zune and iPhone really aren't competitive products. And Microsoft doesn't appear ready to give up on the Zune after 3 months. They've said all along it was a long term strategy and never intended to de-throne the iPod instantly. Only the media and world of tech-bloggers had that mantra, then giggled like school girls when the Zune didn't take down iPod the first week...

~ddv

I've been meaning to dig at the Zune for a while, and this post just provided a natural segue.

The Zune made a big deal about having a wimpy version of WiFi, and everyone was gabbing about how the iPod was going to lose out without it. So . . .

I can't wait until June. I will be getting one of those iPod phones, for sure!

That has nothing that a Pocket PC Phone doesn't already have. It's also much taller and wider (but thinner thanks to no keyboard) than a Treo or Wizard\MDA. And no physical keyboard is a bad, bad idea.

Like my video I-Pod, the I-Phone screen will be all scratched up after a couple of weeks in somebody's pocket.

And look for your monthly phone bill to be around or over $100.

ddv, sucks to be a Windows cock sucker these days doesn't it? take your pathetic zune back across the bridge and hang out at the Bell Square food court.

I dont think the Zune is that great (i own a sweet iPod that I couldn't live without), but normally when MS goes out for something they do pretty damn well. Think about when X-Box was debuted. People kept talking shit about it, and how they would never rival PlayStation....so yeah.

But the new phone looks great. It look like a slide phone, which is sweet. Flip phones are out. Slide phone are in. The Apple TV sounds freaking great.

it's not really fair to call it a phone, it's really a super small mac that can make phone calls, the thing runs osx for christ's sake, has bluetooth, wifi, etc.

I WANT.

And yes, DDV, this competes with the ZUNE, it's a video ipod that makes phone calls.

Steve Jobs is GOD! Let us worship Him with our scratched up iPods! Let us admire the batteries on the Nano that stop holding a charge after 6 months. And even with those problems it is better than anything else on the market.

For folks who don't have a cool cellie, pod, or digicam, this thing is certainly exactly what they need. And the price could be worse, given that it is this beautiful Frankenstein gadget thing.

But things that aren't talked about:
* Just 5 hours of battery life for the non-iPod related stuff?
* Cingular only?
* Way too much Yahoo ass licking inside
* Only POP mail for gmail. Great.

Again, "iPhone" will be great for those who don't already have at least one of the composites in a fuller, greater form.

$500 for a 4gig, $600 for an 8gig.

ipod = adidas shell toes
zune = target 3 stripe knock-offs

they both get the job done. but ipod, like the classic shell toe, is a marvel of simple design and comfort.

microsoft has made a number of crucial errors with zune and will never gain the percentage of the mp3 market share that they want.

unless that thing starts making people invisible or able to fly. until then, why even consider an inferior product?

I just read a transcript and saw photos of the MacWorld address---- This is huge, I cannot wait to get my hands on one of these.
A++++

Can't wait until people lose or forget these iPhones in the cab after a drunken night.

"Oh, it's just a cheap Noki.. wait, no! It had all my pictures, my mp3s, my contacts, my WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!"

This really is a great, robust new product that I can't wait to get my hands on! All of my friends have been "whispering" about this and now it's true. The functionalities look superb, don't they?

Kerri: Yup.

And to those who think I'm being snottily dismissive of the Zune--I don't mean to be dismissive at all. Maybe I'm being hasty, but the Zune seems to be a failure of Showgirls proportions—a whole bunch of adult professionals were paid a whole bunch of money and this is what they came up with? It's mind-boggling, and I predict the creation, launch, and failure of the Zune will be the subject of numerous books over the next 20 years.

I mean, really—what kind of creative mind looks at an iPod and says, "You know what's missing from this thing? The ability to send song files to someone else, who can then listen to them three times before they're rendered inaccessible?"

And "Welcome to the Social"? Using "social" as a noun reminds me of nothing so much as this weird mixer my classmates and I were required to attend in junior high, and I doubt "lame moments from middle school" was the vibe Microsoft was going for in the marketing of the Zune....

As far as I can tell, the Zune is mostly attractive to people who hate iPods because they're popular.

Spend spend spend

buy buy buy

hurry!!!!!

Consume!!!! Oh god...how Steve Gates taunts us with his products...I must buy....i have to have it...oh god...how can i live without it....more more more

Speaking of losing cell phones. Wonder if Christopher F. will get one then lose it? Wonder if Victoria will find it and start throwing up? Imagine the slog article that will come out then!

I can't believe nobody has mentioned the fact that when you share a song with somebody on the zune, its called "squirting." As in, that cute girl in my class has a zune. Hmm, Maybe she'd let me squirt her a *cough* song.

You can only hope she enjoys... the song.

The criticisms of iPods (and now the iPhone) are all so silly and petty.

It gets scratched! - take better care of it. anything you put in your pocket with your keys gets scratched.

What if you lose it!? - don't lose it. sheesh. what if you lose your wallet? what if you lose your laptop? and it's certainly not intended to be the ONLY place you store your media files--nor is it really even possible to be such, unless you delete everything from your computer after syncing.

Battery life! - there's no such thing as a super battery. everyone is dealing with the same technology here, and apple has done a great job of squeezing more and more juice while adding features. new ipods do more and last longer than the previous generations.

Anyway, the iPhone is a quantum leap in cell phone technology. It's basically the tiniest computer ever made, and it makes calls, too. You can bet that every cell phone manufacturer on earth just called an emergency meeting, while their interface designers have all committed ritual suicide.

Meanwhile, Microsoft announced today that you'll be able to play games on the Zune... in JUNE 2008.

#20 what the christ are you talking about "tiniest computer ever made?" This phone does pretty much everything a Blackberry/Trio/PDA has done for years. The biggest difference being the backend and the fact it's made by Apple.

"The biggest difference being the backend and the fact it's made by Apple."

**sigh** it's so much more than just that comparison...but if you don't see that then why bother trying to explain it...but i'll give it a shot:

Blackberry/Trio/PDA = Ford Escort
iPhone = Mini Cooper

Wow what a compelling argument. I couldn't possibly counter such sound and overwhelming logic.

Wow, there's a lot of slurping of Steve Jobs' cock in this comment thread. A phone that plays music. Big f'ing deal. What's with all the Zune bashing, too? Yeah, it's not as good as the iPod. But it's not such a screaming, abject failure as so many people are saying. M$FT would've been dumb not to try and enter the market. And like someone else said, they knew they weren't going to knock off iPod right away. Give them 5 years, see where they are.

Granted, I own two iPods -- theoriginal clickwheel, B&W, music-only version, and shuffle #1. They suit me fine. Apple comes up with creative new products every year. You guys have too much money to burn if you "have to" buy all their new products.

Also, I think Apple is more evil (but more creative) than M$FT. Apple products don't play well with others.

the difference is that it has complete and fully functional applications, not stripped down, mini versions. real media player, real photo management, messaging, etc. sure, treos and the rest do these functions, but not nearly this well. i've owned and used those devices for years, and they're just not the same.

and, note that i said "tiniest." this is far smaller than the devices you mention.

#24: Zunes don't work on Macs, but iPods work on PCs. Who's playing well with others?

I don't think knocking the 5 HOUR BATTERY LIFE is petty.

If I take my cell phone to work I can't have it crapping out at lunch.

Actually, Tone, Apple's own specs show that it's bigger than a Treo.

"apple is more evil than msft" - ha.

i don't really think either company is "evil," they're just companies, but for just one example, microsoft has single-handedly held back innovation on the internet for YEARS by refusing to update their piece of shit web browser. they took over the market, and then stopped innovating (going so idiotically far as to disband the IE team for a couple years). they have cost web developers and their employers millions and millions of dollars in lost time trying to work around the countless bugs in their software and their refusal to support standards. IE7 is an improvement, but way too little, way too late (and it STILL doesn't properly support web standards).

not to mention their horrible track record with security.

they did make the xbox360, though, which is a fantastic device.

hmm I was suprised at how many Zune's I saw when I came back from christmas break at my work. I honestly didn't exspect to see one let alone 10. So I don't know its at least selling well with my coworkers.

"This phone does pretty much everything a Blackberry/Trio/PDA has done for years."

It's not what it does. It's how it does it.

"This phone does pretty much everything a Blackberry/Trio/PDA has done for years."

It's not what it does. It's how it does it.

it may be bigger in some dimensions, but it's THINNER, which is really what makes Treos feel big.

oh, and the Treo 680 lists a talk-time battery life of "up to 4 hours". the iPhone has 5 hours talk/video time. that's continuous use. if you talk on the phone for 5 hours before lunch, you may have different issues.

Tone is my hero.

@29 - You make a good point -- they're both companies. I look at apple and I have a hard time understanding how people who complain about microsoft being a monopoly are such ardent supporters of apple. if I buy an apple, I can't change any of the hardware. If i wanted to use a different video card, no dice! Talk about vendor lock in. Not only that, if I buy something on itunes, I can't sync with anything other than an ipod. what's up with that? When it comes down to it, software and hardware companies are just companies and aren't inherently good or bad. but they're all capable of behaving badly. it's willful ignorance to argue otherwise.

Monique: "normally when MS goes out for something they do pretty damn well. Think about when X-Box was debuted. People kept talking shit about it, and how they would never rival PlayStation..."

Except that it didn't. The XBox was a bomb in Japan, and barely registered here in the States, where Playstation 1 games still sell suprisingly well.

The XBox sold its most units here in the US the same Christmas that word leaked out to developers that MS was dropping support for it in favor of its next system, the XBox 360.

Now THAT system, in fact, does seem to be crushing Sony's new system, but an awful lot of consumers got stuck with a dead-on-arrival console. You may have a point, that MS could have a Zune 8 Million in the works for 2008 that will blow away the iPhone, but their whole business and marketing model seems to based around trying to duplicate what other people are doing well. Isn't Vista just OSX reverse-engineered for PCs?

Not for nothing, Halo, arguably the killer ap for XBox was a game originally developed for Apple gamers, until MS just bought Bungie and changed the target platform.

Unlike Zune, you'll actually be able to share stuff in coffee shops with friends using the iPhone, cause it will be very popular.

I've been low-tech for a long time, no cell phone, no watch - but this might convice me to go back into the cell universe ...

what is going to slay the competition when it comes to microsoft is that they're the only ones thinking big. right now you can integrate windows media center, your xbox 360, your mp3 player, and xbox live into one interconnected experience. you can download episodes of the twilight zone while watching something recorded via media center pvr. or you can view all your pictures on your tv using your 360 controller to browse files on your home network. what if in the future you could walk into a party and your wifi-enabled zune could talk to a wifi router while someone sitting on the couch with a 360 controller played dj? it's not quite there yet, but it's close. the zune doesn't have to kill the ipod to be successful, because it's part of a bigger strategy.

MS and Apple do all of the above things you guys complain about: exclusivity. The only difference between the two when it comes down to it is that Apple was too miserly with licensing their OS in the 90s -- otherwise MS wouldn't be in the OS business, or perhaps exist, now.

On the other hand, MS hasn't been sloth-like when it comes to the appropriation game.

Ultimately, I feel the same way about both companies: frustration.

I'm happy with my iPod and my XP machine, at least. And I don't really care to change this.

Excuse, MS *has* been sloth-like, etc.

Blackberry, etc. = Ford Escort; iPhone = Mini Cooper... right on. For those that don't understand this... we can't help you. Just wipe the cheetos off your face and get back to work.

Here's something I'm wondering. How many of you who aren't already tied down with Cingular are excited about switching over just to use this phone? The whole "pay $500 for an all-in-one device and get locked into a two year contract with another cell phone company" thing sounds very un-Appley.

I always though the underlying reason why the iPod was so popular was due to it's simplicity and the fact that it's not loaded down with a bunch of crap.

Oooh, looky, an Apple vs. Microsoft flamewar! It's like 1989 all over again!

At the current price point, my guess is that the iPhone will sink or swim based on how well that touch-screen works for text messaging, which appears to be the killer app for cellular devices running upwards of $250.

It looks nice and shiny and all, but I just don't see the iPhone changing the way people use their little communicator doodads in the way the Blackberry did.

No physical keyboard = subpar device for email\sms\internet applications.

No Exchange compatibility = unsuitable for most corparate users.

Locked into 2 year Cingular contract despite a very high price = low market penetration.

Overall it looks like a nice device, but it's hardly groundbreaking. I have had all these features on my Wizard\MDA for quite a while now. The only place that it has the MDA beat is the 8 GB of memory.

"It looks nice and shiny and all, but I just don't see the iPhone changing the way people use their little communicator doodads in the way the Blackberry did."

...because you have no vision.

So an onscreen keyboard with no tactile feedback that will mean you pretty much have to watch every character you type out is going to make things better? On top that the lack of a stylus means that you can't write freehand notes is going to revolutionize the world? Sure thing! Fuck also include in that the inability to expand the storage device. Imagine being 18 months into your 2 year contract with an 8GB phone while the rest of the world has moved on to bigger and better things.

I understand the comments/concerns about scratches. I also wonder about the screen getting dirty/oily from use.

If I need to touch all over the screen to use the dialer and keyboard, will it interfere with the picture when I'm watching vidoes, TV, Games or the interface in general.

If Apple has been working on this for as long as they have claimed, I'm sure they must have thought/dealt with the issue. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the hands of the consumer.

~ddv

Sorry, Charles, Microsoft may be working toward total media integration, but Apple is pretty much there already. My friend has his Mac mini hooked up to his television - he can game, listen to music, watch television, download movies, et al. on a 70" screen with Bose speakers.

So, DewSterling, it appears your friend has the capability of ANY computer that has DVI or component or s-video output.

the iphone is going to change everything.

games on the mac, huh? ;p

JC, au contraire, mon chere, my vision is precisely this:

The introduction of a device that combines the functions of several other devices, no matter how well-engineered, will not produce the kind of change in consumer behavior that is sometimes effected by a product that offers new functionality (in the Blackberry's case, that would be the significantly faster means of entering text with one's hands).

I can certainly see the iPhone selling a lot of units on the old conspicuous consumption tip, but I really don't see it changing the way people communicate. So tell me, what am I missing here? I assume you've got oodles of this "vision" stuff, so could you please tell us what, exactly, you envision for the iPhone?

For all the commenters on Slog who come up with cogent arguments against organized religion, some of you are sounding like you've consumed the Kool-Aid (whichever of the two flavors you perfer) directly from the package.

Replace the above comments' "Apple"s and "MS"s with "Jesus"s and "Allah"s respectively and read back the hilarity.

(Granted, a lot of commenters on this specific thread are not the regulars -- or at least, not using their regular aliases)

Re #24: Actually, I think the biggest knock against Zune is it doesn't work with Microsoft's own copy protection scheme. After spending a lot of time and money hyping "PlaysForSure", they came out with a portable music player where it Doesn'tPlayAtAll. This is one of Microsoft's biggest problems -- they've gotten so big that they act schizophrenic. One side of the company doesn't have any idea what the other side is doing.

Re #27: I figure I'll wait six months and there'll be a version that has twice the battery life, is two thirds the size, and costs half as much. ;)

Re #35: It's pretty simple. People like Apple because they're not Microsoft. You really don't have to look any farther than that. It's easy to make an argument that Apple's business practices are just as nasty, but they still get points with a lot of people for being the underdog.

matthew fisher wilder:

If you think the zealotry is out of hand here, just give thanks that the damned thing won't be shipping with Linux installed on it.

#52 You are wrong. The fax machine was a combination of a printer and a telephone and produced a major change in consumer behavior.
This is the start of something bigger.

Re #55: The only thing worse than that would be if it shipped with AmigaOS. ;)

Re #56: The fax machine allowed people to do something they couldn't before -- send paper documents almost instantly to a remote location. It's not clear to me what you can do with this device that you can't do with existing devices. It's just a more compact form factor.

I like Apple because their hardware looks amazing. Hell, their OS looks amazing. I don't know if Steve Jobs is traveling the globe, kidnapping all the decent industrial designers, but Apple has the cool shit market cornered.

All I can say is NEATO!

Gadget mobility is great because it will mean more people will WANT to take the bus. I wont have to listen to stupid people on the bus talking and I get to watch my DVR favorite shows on the way to work. Project Runway, Hereos, Weeds -- woohoo!

Also with the easy access to porn on all of these gadgets and the Seattle School putting kids onto Metro buses we won't really have to worry about our kids being exposed to strip club signage when they are forced to walk by their neighborhood strip joints because they will already be desensitized by exposed to their bus seatmates ipod / iphone porn watching.

This is awesome.

iPod - works with Windows! (via iTunes)
new Apple TV - works with Windows!
new iPhone - will work with Windows!
As usual for Billy G, its "heads I win, tails you lose". And "Apple Computer" is now "Apple Inc."

The touch-screen interface is a decidedly mixed blessing, having worked with several. The problem is that it takes both hands plus your eyeballs to dial a number. With my current phone, I can usually dial a number with one hand and no eyeballs. This is especially problematic for drivers - and you know who you are! The plus is that it makes it much easier to web-browse.

Battery-life is a ubiquitous problem for lots of these devices (I haven't yet figured out if its battery is replaceable). OLED displays will help with this once they're FINALLY widely deployed, please god!!

I am very VERY surprised that it doesn't have HSDPA on the first go-round; however that is currently problematic from a global-frequency perspective; without it, this is a "world-phone" right out of the box.

Its pricey, and most people won't pony up the $$ when it comes right down to it. Users have become quite addicted to the discount-price/long-contract pricing model. Note that virtually every current iPod owner is also carrying around a cell-phone, and its not like they're collapsing in line at Starbucks from the burden of having 2 devices instead of one. $iPod + $smartphone = $$iPhone

Web-browsing requires an additional $20/mo unlimited data-plan from Cingular, unless they decide that this device is a PDA, in which case it'll be more like $40/mo.

Note that if you eventually purchase one of these at retail/eBay unlocked, it can work on T-Mobile (and most countries around the world) but NOT on Sprint or Verizon.

Zune is part of a much wider long-term strategy; MS will keep at it for years. Anyone remember Windows 3.1??

And if you think that MS and Apple are the nastiest of corporations, you obviously haven't tangled with Cingular! Although Verizon manages to make them all look like sweet grandmothers in comparison, not easy to do...

It's so easy to identify the billfillers on this thread... the poor souls who are so desperate to defend their commitment to poor products. They should all go and do what they've always wanted to do - go and fill bill with a sour squirt of...

I hope my current nokia survives to iphone day.

You guys sure are into material possessions for a bunch of lefties.

The Mini Cooper / Ford Escort comparison is appropriate on many levels. Just like those two cars, Apple’s business model targets designing and building devices for the wealthy elite who value form and quality over cost (although ironically my 2003 Mini Cooper S had many more quality issues than my old Ford Escort), and Microsoft - like it or loath it - will provide cheaper versions accessible to the masses that do the same thing with less panache.

This device doesn’t do anything a SmartPhone doesn’t already do today (apart from perhaps play Apple's proprietary music format). It just does it with style, grace, and a large chunk of change.

Hey folks. Zune is local. Buy it. Support it.

You buy Zune, more people in Redmond make money, and more people from Redmond come to the city and spend money. This is a good thing.

#62: Here's the rub: Microsoft's products are TERRIBLE and it's not because they don't have panache. They are of lousy quality (buggy, crashy, you name it) and this is coming from someone who doesn't really need her computer to do anything fancy.

Apple products are more geared toward the customer and that's why they're better. Less cords, less clutter, less features (I can't stand how Microsoft's answer to everything is More Features!) More fun to use.