Comments on The Future of Islam?

Wow, a little xenophobia coming from the Stranger - I'm surprised!

The top photo in particular looks like a videogame I used to play but the name escapes me. Players would drive futuristic cars while blowing the crap out of each other until someone crossed the finish line.

f-zero maybe?

It's not xenophobia, it's reality. Yes, Christianity is backwards and idiotic too. But most Christians have been known to not take the Bible so literally. Muslims believe the Quran is the literal and infallible word of God. The Hadith also takes this view. In the end, all religion is idotic, ergo the more extreme the religion is, the more idotic it is.

charles, i'm surprised. even if many islamic beliefs are backwards (like any religion), the qur'an is one of the most intriguing--and futuristic, for its time--religious texts. it is conscious of itself as language much like the modernist architecture you cherish is conscious of itself.

Don't confuse buildings with reality.

Tiffany,

I've known many Muslims whose beliefs don't match those you describe. Just as any sentence beginning "Christians believe..." is certain to be wrong at least some of the time, so your sentence beginning "Muslims believe..."

Is this Zaha Hadid? Looks like every one of her buildings, at least.

From Wikipedia:

"Muslims believe the Qur'an, in its original Arabic, to be the literal word of God that was revealed to Muhammad over a period of twenty-three years until his death, and believe it to be God's final revelation to humanity[2]."

Viewed from the outside, from the standpoint of a non-believer, all religions are "about the past" -- they are intellectual edifices constructed by humans in response to the pressures of the particular times and cultures in which they lived. (Thoughtful religious folk realize this as well, though they would disagree with me on the extent to which it's true.) All fundamentalists therefore come off as weirdly reactionary to those who do not embrace their belief structures.

Your post suggests that Islam is somehow unique among religions in its application of the past to the present, or that Eliot's brand of Anglicanism was. That's the kind of thing a religious insider says about other people's religions. Also insiderish: the talk of "Islam," as though there are no distinguishable iterations of the religion. From where I'm standing, there's little difference between fundamentalist Islams, Christianities, Hinduisms -- what have you -- but big differences within "Islam," "Christianity," or "Hinduism." So, what's the ground you're standing on? Looks pretty squishy to me.

Or maybe it's just the I-want-to-attract-PC-flames ground. AKA, juvenile button-pushing replaces rigorous exchange. AKA, more of what ails us.

"The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real estate they own."

- Frank Zappa

"But most Christians have been known to not take the Bible so literally."

mwaha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha!! =)

Hey don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to defend Christianity. As far as I'm concerned it's all just a mass delusion.

As an atheist, I studied most of the major world religions from a dispassionate standpoint during college and my take is that they all have bad ideas mixed in with the good.

The problem isn't the religion per se, it's the people and their empty moralizing and hypocrisy.

Since the US is about 80% Christian, meaning following the teachings of Jesus Christ, one would think that we would have the most peaceful, egalitarian and progressive society on the planet, but oh no, instead we have one of the most militaristic and cruel, with the largest gap between rich and poor in the world. In fact, the current hot lesson is that Gawd wants you to be rich and screw everyone else. I guess Gawd is now like Gordon “greed is good” Gekko.

American Christianity is not about being a good person or helping the less fortunate, it's about screaming that anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe, even other Christians, is uh gonna fry in ah hay-yell (See: Mark Driscoll, et al).

Religious fundamentalists of all stripes are so much the same that their specific beliefs are irrelevant. It's their perverted megalomania that is the core problem.

I like the building, and maybe it will inspire people to hope for peace and tolerance instead of hatred and division.

But probably not.

Cheers you snide yankie fucker. Suprised you didn't throw in the term "raghead".

Oh crap, you're a Scientologist, aren't you?

Also it's a bit of a laugh an American criticising anyone's architecture, considering how ugly and boring most of your modern buildings are.

Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland who blew shit up and each other from the late 60's to the late 90's should be reminded that Christians do not take things literally. Hell, North Americans of Irish descent gladly kept the Provos(IRA) going, ignoring the little terrorism thang, and the Brits kept the Ulster protestant murder gangs going, ignoring the terrorism thang. Hell former IRA bombers like Gerry Adams and Marty Mcguiness filled Meany Hall in the U-dub. Because u see terrorism is something Arabs do, not Judeo Christian , Protestant or Catholic nut jobs. The Oklahoma bombing? Mc Veigh was prolly trained by Osama. Oh wait, we trained Osama. My bad yo. Opus dei nut jobs should be reminded that they do not take the bible literally. Moonies should be reminded. Genocidal Spaniards should be reminded. Witch burners. 19th century North American Slave traders. Orthodox Serb Christians who massacred hundreds of thousands of Muslim Bosniaks should be reminded that they as christians do not take the bible literally. As reformed South African Christians who supported Apartheid. Fuggetabout it...

Yeah, well at least we don't have our Generals in the Army creating training videos encouraging young Christians to fight for God's Will.

oh. wait. never mind.

hey, don't judge a country by it's buildings.

hey, don't judge a country by it's buildings.

If we did then America would be an ugly box with "WALMART" written on the outside.

You have no argument from me, SEME. Like I said before, Christianity is stupid too. As is Judaism, Wicca, Scientology, belief in fairies, etc...

mm backwards. implying a sense of progress. very american of you.

The following should serve as adequate deconstruction:

Let's build a strong self-centered social construct (whose basic principle is, if I believe it, it is right) and interpret everything through its lens, pretending that we have found the only appropriate way to look at the world! yay!

People that do this:
•Religious people
--especially George W. Bush
•Asshole intellectuals
•Charles Mudede
•Just about everybody

(except that some people are ashamed of themselves if they catch themselves doing it.)

The Democratic party should rule the Earth, by jingo, overwhelming the benighted brown people and rural people and all infidels... er... non-forward-thinkers... with their benevolence!

Charles. We get it. It's a taboo to insult Islam, and you've bravely broken it. This is a considerable improvement on your usual college poetry.

A modernist mega-mosque being built a religion whose most passionate adherents want to return us all to the 13th Century? Well, at least those of us they don't want to behead? I'm sorry, but that's hilarious.

If the 13th Century laws, customs, and "science"—and they had the best science then, hands down—are good enough for today, why not 13th Century architecture?

WTF? All of a sudden The Stranger is RACE HATE WEEKLY?

Since when did a belief system become a race, Art?

Since Americans began their hate-on for anyone brown.

You'll never actually come out and say it but your Islamophobia totally about race.

We don't much like conservative Islam, it's true. But we don't much like conservative Christianity either, as we demonstrate time and time again in our pages.

I don't hear you calling for any church burnings. Mosques are special somehow... why is that?

Art- what r u saying? The post is clear, is mocking a backwards religion for trying to house itself in modern digs. There is nothing more there.

And are you saying Muslims are not attacked in Europe? or that anti Muslim sentiment is a North American thing? Not true, I have been to Scotland, Ulster and most of Eastern Europe and have travelled in my brown skin and they can be much nastier in that part of the world.

The only religion the Stranger doesnt mock its judaism, cuz they dont want that wrath and they cant handle that kind of heat ( being called anti semitic and stuff). Other than that sacred religion, they pretty much mock all of em which is fine by me and it should be fine by you and frankly i wouldnt mind seeing muslims condem their coreligionists for their fanatical ways.

I am aware on The Stranger attacks on conservative christianity nad this is not the same thing in the slightest.

If you can find an example of someone building a church - with no evidence of conservative affiliation - and The Stranger leaping in to attack them due to the inherent backwardness of Christian people I would be very much suprised.

Basicaly what you;ve done here is automatically assumed that this is the face of conservative islam because they'e all foreign aren't they? And they talk a bit funny. They're bound to be a primitive.

And yes, you will see the same thing in Scotland, Ulster and most of Eastern Europe: It's called racism. It's not a good thing, and findinf other examples of it doesn't excuse it.

I am aware on The Strangers stance conservative Christianity and this is not the same thing in the slightest.

If you can find an example of someone building a church - with no evidence of conservative affiliation - and The Stranger leaping in to attack them due to the inherent backwardness of Christian people I would be very much suprised.

Basicaly what you've done here is automatically assumed that this is the face of conservative islam because they'e all foreign aren't they? And they talk a bit funny. They're bound to be a primitive.

And yes, you will see the same thing in Scotland, Ulster and most of Eastern Europe: It's called racism. It's not a good thing, and findinf other examples of it doesn't excuse it.

I await the Strangers follow-up article on how European culture is doomed because the brown hordes will outbreed whiey.

Please excuse my double post - soemthing weird happened on preview.

Art you are reading to much into it. I did not see racism in Charles' post.

I don't hear them calling for mosque burnings either, Art. Since when does pointing out the obvious (people following 14th century dogma in the name of religion) equate calling calling for violence against the religion? I can say that George Bush is a moron and is bad for this country, but that doesn't mean I said to burn his house down. So why then does criticizing religion any different?

Every time I see this taboo broken (criticizing organized religion, especially pointing out its backwardness), my heart lifts a little. I feel there might be hope for our country, planet, etc. So thanks. Flame wars are better than silence. I'm kinda disappointed the protest of Mars Hill was called off...I don't think the appointing of a female PR director was terribly relevant to the original complaints.

Interesting posts. For me I am agnostic, therefore I do not disprove any religion. I belive that they are right in many ways. Yet, I do not idealise myself worshiping under one god. I say each religion is copupt, many adapt to their teaching as the only right view to have. It is imposible to prove or disprove of God, gods, and or a god. So, religions or non religigious groups, stop infringing on other peoples lives.

The author said Muslims look to the past is a nostalic TS Elliot kind of way. I would say that a fair percentage are nostalic for the past in the was the far far religious right is in america: for a time of cultural/ethnic/gender supremacy. This is why I am so irked at the faux "openmindedness" some leftists have for islamic extreamism- it is no different than sympathizing with the kkk and i got sick of the smugness of people who feel they are so openminded for not being judgemental about the islamic kkk.

oh, and Art dear- if you are so angry at offputting comments in the media turn your wrath to the Islamic media. Why don't you spend a little less time blogging your head off over somthing so trite when even "moderate" muslim publications are full of more bias and bile.

Muslims in much of the world lean conservative to fundamentalist while Christians in the West lean moderate to liberal, despite our wingnuts' best efforts. I postulate that it's Middle Eastern/African/Southeast Asian vs. European/American culture that's to blame for this difference, not any inherent difference between Islam and Christianity.

Art has a point: If you read Charles's post, and the comments, there is a clear ignorance of Islam shining through. Maybe Charles is being intentional, I don't know. Islam, and Muslims, are many things. To conflate Islam with Islamic terrorism is to make the same mistake as conflating Black with drug dealing hoodlums - it is a failure to discriminate (in the good meaning of the word). Maybe you think this is P.C., but I would guess that that is because non-fundamentalism Muslims are not real to you, just ideas.

Please enjoy my annotation of choice tidbits from this thread, and excuse the egotistically long post:

(Charles) "And Islam is backwards. Nothing about it is in the future. All of it is in the deep and dark past, which is why anti-Western Muslims are not revolutionaries—they are not after change but restoration..."

- Here your mind glided from what Islam is to what "anti-Western Muslims" are.

(Charles) "Futuristic glass and steel shapes sheltering men in clothes suited for the ancient desert and praying to the desert?"

- Indonesia (no deserts) has the most Muslims in the world, and they don't wear robes.

(Dan) "A modernist mega-mosque being built a religion [sic] whose most passionate adherents want to return us all to the 13th Century?"

- You are confusing "the most passionate adherents" with the ones who blow up buildings. In fact, there are many peaceful Muslims who are more passionate than suicide bombers, they just don't make headlines.

(Dan) "We don't much like conservative Islam, it's true."

- If we are to take the info on the Architecture website at face value, the 'centre' "is a place for Muslims and Non Muslims can meet [sic] and promote a greater understanding between ideology, faith and humanity." So where did conservative Islam come into the discussion, Dan? Oh, it was created by people who conflate the two.

(Keshmeshi) "Muslims in much of the world lean conservative to fundamentalist while Christians in the West lean moderate to liberal, despite our wingnuts' best efforts."

- Do you have a source for this information or is it just a gut feeling? I would agree that there are more very conservative Muslims than very conservative Christians at this little moment in history, but how do we know the average is higher for Islam? Most Muslims are poor and just trying to get by and feed their families - they don't have time for much Conservatism, nor outlet for it. It could go either way, or perhaps it is the same - the bell curve might just be flatter and wider.

This post is based in part on experience living in a Muslim country. I should submit this "annotation" to Harper's, ha ha.

Yes, and perhaps the conservatism is related to poverty. It's easier to fall hook, line, and sinker for conservative religion when you don't know how to read.

I was basing my statement on my limited travels in Muslim parts of Africa and what I've studied about the Middle East. Are you arguing that majority Muslim cultures aren't more conservative? Even the majority of Muslims in the West are more conservative than their Christian neighbors.

"Are you arguing that majority Muslim cultures aren't more conservative?"

what does it mean to be "conservative"?
I think it is often used as a euphamism for things that deserve a far more damning label. People who believe gays should be executed and segregation and apartheid for women is the ideal (and no, I am not saying all muslims believe these things) are not "conservative" any more than the kkk's attitudes towards people of color were "conservative"

If you conclude anything as 'backward' before you have soundly judged and considered the context from which it is derived (that would be the Quran itself for anyone who is confused) then you cannot transcend ignorance. It is only whenyou have read/studied/considered the Quran itself hat you have the right to judge the religion itself. Otherwise everyone is entitled to their opinion.

TS Elliot was an antisemite.

between this BS and Dan's inexplicable encouragement of the anti-semitic backlash over the Sea-Tac trees (as long as religion is under fire, you win?), I guess it's time to stop reading the SLOG.

How disappointing! I thought I had found a great source for oddball news and liberal news with a sense of humor. (Hate speech isn't intelligent critique, by the way.)

"Islam is backwards"? You're so ignorant, I actually pity you.

"It's not xenophobia, it's reality"? Okay, how many real-life Muslims do *you* know?

I would be absolutely shocked if the number was anything greater than a big fat zero. He certainly knows fuck all about British muslims. Or, most likely, architecture.

You think I hate Muslims, but that is definitely not the case. I fell sorry for them that they have been taken in by this dogma of ignorance. I esepecially feel bad for the ones that live in places that government forces this anti-modern philosophy upon its population.

I see that it is being built close to the London 2012 Olympic sites. At least the suicide bombers won't have far to walk.

For the record, liberal Islam does exist. Saying that "Islam is backwards" is a breathtakingly ignorant statement.

Re #4: The fundamentalist sects of Christianity that are currently getting the most attention generally DO believe the Bible is literally true and without error. In that regard, they're similar to fundamentalist Muslims.

Re #40: While on average the general population of Christians may be center-left, the groups that are leading the Christian *political movement* in the U.S. are hard right, and that's what tends to really matter. Likewise, what we see here in the West is the hard-right political movement part of Islam, not an average of the beliefs of all Muslims.

I suspect the intent of this post was to stir the pot, like ECB's "kick all the cripples off the express buses" rant.

The real problem with the building is that it's too glossy and contemporary. It always comes across as ridiculous when people try to make religion seem fresh and new and cool. This what makes Mars Hill seem creepy, Ted Haggard's church seem silly, and the building in this post seem out of place. Religion is about the preservation of tradition, and churches should look like churches, not like airport terminals.