Comments on Rape Charges Dropped in Duke Lacrosse Case

ECB, thank you for your post. I am so sick of hearing about these fine young men, who admit to using racial slurs. They should be ashamed of themselves. Even if they are not guilty of rape, they are certainly racists and sexists.

This was interesting: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060904fa_fact

What's the legal difference between rape and sexual assault?

You need to open your eyes on this case. The overwhelming evidence demonstrates that neither rape nor sexual assault occurred that night. I state that due to the following:
1) The stripper gave a statement that night that several of her attacker had an orgasm inside her. She also stated that she had not had sex with any male in the past week. On Friday last week, the director of the independent DNA testing lab testified that there was DNA samples found on the stripper and in her underwear from several males, none of which matched any of the accused or any Duke Lacrosse player. That directly contradicts the girl's statement.
2) The girl had drinks before attending the party and combined that with prescription muscle relaxing drug. The second stripper, Kim Robert, stated in the 60 minutes interview, the girl acted like she was under the influence. Pictures show that that several Duke players had to help her to the Ms. Robert's car after the party. Given this, how is this girl in any condition to identify men let alone give a clear and accurate testimony of what occurred that night?
3) Even more disturbing that the victim's actions and statements is the behavior of the Durham DA Mike Nifong and police Sgt. Doug Gotlieb. Sgt. Doug Gotlieb violated both federal and North Carolina rules on photo identification when he presented the photo ID to the victim. The only photos presented where of the Caucasian Duke Lacrosse players. In effect, the victim did not have the ability to make a mistake, since she was only shown pictures of men who attended the party. This photo identification will not hold in Court. Furthermore, the actions the DA, who publicly called the Lacrosse players thugs and called them guilty before the results of the DNA tests had returned, clearly violated NC law. Lastly, the DA and the head of the DNA lab admitted in court last week that they withheld exculpatory evidence from the defense.
These young men are victims of a politically motivated DA, who used this case to get reelected in Durham. While I find the actions of the young men at the party irresponsible and reckless (serving alcohol to minors and paying for strippers), this in no way suggests that they nor anyone
is guilty of a crime.

The legal definition (elements) of a crime depends on the jurisdiction. Every jurisdiction has a different definition. In some places rape is sexual assault. A person would need to know the criminal code in Durham, NC to answer that question. Any criminal law lawyers in Durham want to answer?

1. There's no evidence at all that the players got either stripper drunk.

2. Pretty doubtful that Kim would've ever have received the "nigger" blast from one of the players if not for the fact that she first hurled a racial epithet at him.

3. Your claim that only 1.6% of rape allegations are false is bogus. The FBI's Uniform Crime Report has tended to peg the number around 5 times higher than that: 8%.

Actually none of the three charged is the one who called her nigger or called her anything for that matter. Don't you watch 60 Minutes? These frat boys are not saints but that's not a crime. This is just another "Tawana Brawley" grab for money and/or attention.

What a bunch of fucking assholes.

I am so angry at some of these comments I can't even see straight.

"2. Pretty doubtful that Kim would've ever have received the "nigger" blast from one of the players if not for the fact that she first hurled a racial epithet at him."

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Because no drunk ass southern white boy has EVER made a racist comment without the black person calling him a cracker first. What an ass. N00B is an incredibly accurate handle for you, buddy.

Also, 8% isn't exactly helping your point, buddy. That's probably about same percentage for every goddamn crime out there.

Ugh, denying racist, sexist and just plain terrible crimes with racist, sexist, and terrible comments. Way to go, kids.

Kasa, you sound like a really vile person, no wonder you're so full of hate.

Stripper Kim went on "60 Minutes" and stated that she wasn't called a nigger until after she started hurling epithets at the player. Nobody called her a nigger before that, there's no reason to believe that anybody would have without her starting things.

Not only that, but you're wrong about the percentages "for every goddamn crime out there." The FBI's statistics showing an 8% false claim rate for rape also show that number being FOUR TIMES HIGHER than the rate at which other criminal claims turn out to be false.

Go pick up a book and educate your ignorant self instead of spewing your bile all over people trying to have an adult conversation about the subject.

Also, Kasa, I love how you use stereotypes to "prove" that someone used stereotypes. So since the people in question were "drunk ass southern white boy[s]" (wow, I can just feel the tolerance coming from you on that one), that somehow "proves" that they called her names first?
Next, you decry the denial, as you see it (what most people call "asking for truth") of these horrible crimes (again, the crimes that haven't been proven and the evidence gets thinner on every day) and the use of what you call "racist, sexist, and terrible comments." So reading the police report and the statements of witnesses is now racist and sexist? Is reality getting you down? It's not noob's fault that the report says what it says: the accuser said herself that no one called her names until she called someone else names. This is racist all right, but it ain't noob.
So essentially, you're playing the race card to fight racism. I fully believe that you can't see straight, but I don't think it's your anger causing the blindness.

I didn't really have to scroll down to see who posted this article; somehow I knew it was Erica.
So, let's run through the crimes of these men, the ones clearly stated by Erica:"these young men spent $800 to hire two escorts, got one of them drunk, called her a “nigger” and may have had gang sex with her."
Wow. Could you disempower women anymore with your victimizing? So hiring a stripper is a horrible, horrible thing to do, and I can only imagine how much you dislike strippers themselves! I mean, women who choose that type of career must be shunned, right? Or is it one of those, "It's ok for women to do it, cause it's their body and their choice, but it's horrible for men or women to actually hire one." Next, the frat guys "got her drunk." "Got her drunk"? Did they tire her up and force the alcohol down her throat? Did they sneak alcohol into her juicebox? Did they threaten her unless she drank? Oh, wait: maybe they offered alcohol to a living, breathing, thinking, consenting adult woman and SHE chose to get drunk. But I forgot, these guys are scum, so they "got her drunk."
Next, they called her a nigger. According to Kim on 60 minutes, she dropped racial epithets first, and then they replied in kind. Wow, they really do suck, to talk to her the same way she talked to them. And last, they may have had gang sex. Cause, you know, consenting sex with multiple partners is bad. Or something.
Erica, aside from the nigger/cracker exchange, is there anything in your post and judgement on these men that couldn't come from the mouth of the Christian right? They hired a stripper, got drunk and maybe had sex. Sounds like a Jerry Falwell special: 3 sins at once.
This sounds far more like you want to hate these guys cause it brings up every racial and sexism issue you see in the world around you. And you know what--those issues do exist in our society, and they need to be combated. But just as racism in the NYPD did not excuse the lying and falsification of evidence and the accusation of innocent men by Tawana Brawley, you cannot let several men go to jail and be branded rapists for life simply because this case almost is a perfect example of racism in the South. Almost a perfect case, I say, because aside from the little matters of the facts and the evidence and the criminal conduct of the DA, it really is almost everything a civil rights activist could want. Except justice.

Innocent until PROVEN guilty. The sad thing is.. if there was no evidence at all and no testimony most people would think they did it.

"Good, upstanding young boys?" That just fuels rage and anger on the left. I'll illustrate.

"The people at the stranger and just good innocent upstanding young Christian boys."

Can you feel the anger? I'm not sure why exactly.. but if you want to rally people in Seattle against something start defending it from a purists position and just see what happens.

Oh I might add.. We don't have to like them, they can be cruel rich bigots.. that does not make them guilty at all.

Don't let your emotions get involved. Facts matter and facts point to no such rape occurred.

I know people would like to hammer these guys just for who they are.. but.. thee just is nothing pointing to a rape other than what the accuser says.

Nobody outside of Duke is praising these guys. Their character(or lack thereof) is besides the point. The fact that the accuser has changed her story, again, and a vindictive DA refuses to let this case go without any actual evidence are the real talking points.
But even mentioning these would involve delving into a thing called reality, something we know Erica is all too foriegn with.
I suppose that their season being cancelled and the coach 'resigning' is just collateral damage?

Erica's post raises an interesting question: As a liberal, which is more annoying to you?

a) Stupid conservative commentary
b) Stupid liberal commentary

Personally, I used to think a), but Erica makes a very strong case for choosing b).

This comment thread is vile. The post is about the skewed morality that allows men who do things society would not want our brothers, fathers, friends to do (hire strippers, get wasted, rarticipate in group sex), but as long as they didn't rape/sexually assault a woman, they are held as paragons of virtue.

That is fucked up. They may have been falsely accused, but that does not mean that they are perfect angels - it also doesn't mean they are horribly evil, either.

And to pretend that race hasn't played a part is obscene as well.

Vile commenters. Vile!

“First, there’s the phrase “crying rape,” which came up a lot in the reaction to the woman’s accusations… The phrase implies that all a woman has to do is yell “Rape!” and a man automatically gets falsely convicted.” Well, Erica, that’s true. Not convicted in court, but convicted by a large segment of society just by the accusation, and in consequence get his business and possibly his family situation ruined.
It differs geographically, but in some situations, notably college campuses, a woman could ‘cry rape,’ even without alleging coercion or mind-altering substances, and the guy could get brought up on charges. Anyone suggesting that maybe this was not a good idea in terms of prosecuting actual rapists was tarred as a ‘rape apologist’ (see ‘Camille Paglia’). So, yeah, now anyone who cares to educate themselves on this topic is well aware of the mindset
Man sober/woman drunk = rape
Man drunk/woman drunk = rape
Man drunk/woman sober = not rape
Both sober + man acts in ‘manipulative fashion’ = quite possibly rape.
Notice I said ‘his,’ it goes without saying that this does not happen to women, no matter their color vis a vis the guy’s, their job situation, or whether there was alcohol involved. Try to imagine a male stripper of whatever color, claiming that the attendees at a batchelorette party ‘got him drunk,’ had sex with him, and now he’s a rape victim.
Soupytwist, no, ‘vile’ is being willing to see people of whatever gender be accused of a felony that tars your life forever and can get you 10-20 years in jail, WHILE ACCEPTING that hey, maybe they’re innocent of the actual crime, but I don’t like their personality type. THAT shit is vile. That shit is fucked up.
I doubt many people here would care if their ‘brothers, fathers, friends’ got wasted or hired strippers.
I asked a question, oh, about 2 rape threads ago, and there’s been a deafening silence on it, from both Erica and the other Soupytwist-type rabid commenters who would be pleased to use the accusation of the felony ‘rape’ as a big club against those they just don’t like. I don’t expect to get it answered here, but why not try –
What definition of rape would you like to see enforced equally between male or female defendants, and would you support women being prosecuted under as vigorously as men?
Or, Erica, you can just reply to Torrentprime’s questions.

I haven't been following the case closely lately, but isn't there an ATM photo of one of the accused players across town at the time of the alleged rape?

I'm not getting into a flame war here - but the out & out misogyny in the comments here is vile. The hate towards the writer of this post is vile.

I reiterate my point - people can be innocent of rape/sexual assault/burglary/murder charges but that does not make them GOOD people.

For most men, being accused of rape/sexual assault is a fate-worse-than-death prospect (as is being named the father of a child that isn't yours), but to act as if reporting rape and/or sexual assault is easy and/or a desirable thing to do is just as retarded and vile as making false claims.

"...the out & out misogyny in the comments here is vile. The hate towards the writer of this post is vile."
Jeez, get a new adjective. Crack a thesaurus. I see some people who don't like Erica's point, and have pointed out flaws in her logic. But I don't see anyone expressing rank hatred. Although to the hardcore difference-feminist, anything but slavish agreement is hatred.
If the Starbucks barista mis-makes your nonfat triple soy latte, do you walk out of there muttering, "...hate me. All of you. Woman-haters..."
BUT -
"For most men, being accused of rape/sexual assault is a fate-worse-than-death prospect (as is being named the father of a child that isn't yours)..."
thank you for acknowledging this. Many writers, ECB among them, do not. My point was, unfortunately, in some circumstances, yes, it is easy to accuse a man of rape. And even if he's found innocent, you will have some people lionizing your cause, as in, because they're stupid Southern frat boys, and they had some karmic payback coming.
I know nothing about these guys, but suspect I wouldn't get along with them, and that they were the type who made high school miserable for me. But I don't want to live under a system where they can be publicly accused and convicted when the facts apparently say otherwise.

Soupytwist also tries to change reality. No one here said they were nice guys, or paragons of virtue, or saints. No one. For Christ's sake, they're frat boys. Anyone here who thinks they're good kids, raise your hand. Anyone, anyone? No?
So who here claims they were paragons of virtue, Soupy? Who here did? Please point to the post where someone said, " I think these guys should get a good citizenship award."
Next, no one here is pretending race isn't a factor. According to Kim, she called the boys racist names. So yes, race is a factor: from her.
Lastly, Erica's post, according to you, is about the double standard in that society "allows" men to make choices for themselves that apparently we don't want our fathers/brothers making. Well, Soupy, I must disagree. I think a) society has no damn business telling these men how to spend their money and b) I don't think it's any of my damn business how my father or other male relatives spend money either. Basically, this post is about Erica's intermittent Victorian morality, which seems to assert itself whenever a man can be blamed for something. It's a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, except when it's a man's fault.
I also note in passing that the comments from Soupy have been "vile" and "obscene" and Kasa used "racist, sexist, and just plain terrible" when referring to other commenters on this thread. No one else here saw the need to call other people names or make baseless accusations until attacked by you; only those commenters who seem to want men convicted on no evidence whatsoever and damn the collateral damage (cause they're, you know, white) felt it was necessary to play the race card, the sexism card, and name-call. That says a lot more about you two than it does about anyone else on this thread.

some of the comments are sheerly nonsense and from a bunch of prudes - real prudes

not nice guys - because they drink and have group sex? sounds like my perception of the stranger staff after work

I have always endjoyed a lot of group sex, drink little, and never use racial slurs

but i think these guys got railroaded - a scheming woman and prosecuter looking for fame

and so far, they are looking better and better

viva a lot of group sex -- viva a few drinks

Viva real justice and hard evidence in criminal cases

Erica likes to instigate - which is OK, sort of because she is not a very good writer

This one really seems to polarize the folks, or maybe the middle ground just doesn't comment?

I live in Seattle, but I'm here in Durham right now, and heard on the radio that the difference between the charges is that rape has to be vaginal, while sexual assault was the charge for oral/anal.

As a former Duke student I can say that it sucks having the entire school tarred, because the school really does alot for the community. However, in many ways I think that the racial issues and tensions brought up by the case needed to be aired. Duke is the largest employer in the county, and Durham would have shriveled without it in the 70's when tobacco left. But there are lots of problems with how the university treats its staff; the hospital is jokingly called "the plantation" in the local black community. Most of the entry level "grunt" work filled by African Americans (janitorial etc.) is classified as temporary, and working your way out of temp status and into a package with benefits is very difficult. On the flip side Duke is funding the redevelopment of the formerly rotting downtown area by committing to long term leases for office space in abandoned tobacco warehouses, when it could have just built more offices on campus.

I have no idea if these guys are guilty. I lived in the house next door to where the party was, albeit 5 years ago, but it was a lacrosse house back then too. I can say that when I heard about the incident, it sounded like something entirely within the realm of possibilities for the lacrosse boys, they tended to be pricks. But the more evidence I hear, the more it sounds like they didn't rape her.

Of course it's not for me to decide, unless I was there, the only thing I can bring to the table is my preconceptions and biases, be they liberal or conservative.

Oh, and the accused aren't southern they're from Jersey and NY, like many Dukies. If you want southern frat boys go 15 minutes down the road to Chapel Hill.

I suppose that their season being cancelled and the coach 'resigning' is just collateral damage?

The coach allowed his team to run rampant and act like fucking idiots. College athletes are supposed to behave themselves (competing in college-funded sports is a privilege, not a right) and the coach should have been keeping an eye on them. Duke administrators acted appropriately. The coach deserved to get fired and the season cancelled even if there had been no false allegations.

By the way, for you guys who love, love, love to bring up Tawana Brawley in these debates, Tawana Brawley was a dumb teenager who faked getting raped to keep from getting in trouble with her parents. She didn't do it to get cash or attention.

The coach allowed his team to run rampant and act like fucking idiots...and the coach should have been keeping an eye on them.

why just fire the coach then? they're are all individual students at the university, not just guys playing a varsity sport (while maintaining a 100% graduation rate, and having double the number of ACC honor roll students of any other ACC team). why not the RA's in their dorms? why not their professors? why not athletic department administrators? also, please specify what "running rampant and acting like fucking idiots" means, and how the lacrosse team members' behavior differed from any other student's behavior (i'm betting you didn't read the report from Coleman).

Tawana Brawley was a dumb teenager who faked getting raped to keep from getting in trouble with her parents. She didn't do it to get cash or attention.

Crystal Mangum was a dumb prosititue (oops, sorry -- escort worker) who faked a rape so she could avoid the drunk tank. i have no idea what point you're attempting to make.

as an aside, since you (and apparently almost everyone here) seem to know almost nothing about this case, CGM did not cry rape -- she had it suggested to her out of the blue by a nurse-in-training, said yes, and ran with it from there.

holy crap, erica c barnett, this post is ill-informed even for the hyperventilation we saw from pundits in April. to post nonsense like this now means your ignorance has to be willful. i'll serve up your smackdown point by point so the other slowpokes on here don't have to absorb to much at one time.

Leaving aside the question of whether the three Duke lacrosse players were guilty (the evidence on that is point, a good overview of which can be found here, is far from clear)

i'd love to see what you define as "clear" if that's the case. there is no DNA from any lacrosse player anywhere on the accuser. yet there was DNA from 5 unidentified males in 9 different spots on her, including her anal and vaginal cavity, in her pubic hair, and on her panties. there was no DNA from the accuser, or any player, on the bathroom floor where she claimed to have spit out ejaculate from the guy who orally raped her. there was no skin cells, hair, blood, or any other fluid on or about the accuser after she claimed she was held for 30 minutes in a violent struggle that included strangulation, hitting, kicking, scratching, and forcible rape in three orifices with ejaculation. in the SANE nurse's medical report from that night there were no signs of injuries listed other than 2 scratches on the accuser's heel.

this last friday, DNA Security director Brian Meehan testified that he found his own DNA on some samples he was testing, due to one or two of his skin cells contaminating a sample. so there are more DNA matches to the lab director, operating from a sterile lab environment, then there are from any of 46 lacrosse players.

there is zero eyewitness testimony supporting the accuser's tale. on the other hand, there were 36 players there that night that will testify that nothing happened. and every player that was at the party (except for devin sherwood, because he's black) willingly gave DNA samples (btw, would you do that if you knew you raped someone?)

the other dancer, kim roberts, when interviewed by the police and told of Crystal's rape claim, laughed and said "that's a crock".

prior to the final ID session, where Crystal chose 4 people as her 3 attackers (matt wilson was the 2nd person picked) there were two other ID sessions in the weeks before. but those ID sessions conformed to DPD and state guidelines. only on the third session did the police let Crystal know that every one of the pics they were showing her was of guys known to be at the party. she then chose Reade Seligmann, Matt Wilson, Dave Evans, and Collin Finnerty as her three attackers (she had previously named her attackers as Adam, Matt, and Brett). she identified Reade and Collin with "100% certainty", and Dave with "90% certainty" as long as he had a mustache (which he's never had). Collin had not been included in the first two lineups because he's 6'5" and skinny with lighter hair. she had said all her attackers were short and fat with dark hair (even that doesn't match 6'1 225 Reade and 5'11 190 Dave). Dave and Reade were included on the first 2 ID sessions and she failed to pick them (or anyone). on the 2nd session, she tabbed Reade with "70% certainty" as even being one of the guys at the party (let alone attacking her). she would later claim, three weeks later and with 100% certainty, he was one who stood in front of her for 30 minutes while orally raping her.

the accuser had now given over 10 different versions (significantly different) of that night. the rapists were 20, 5, 4, 0, 3, 3 with 3 helpers, with kim roberts assisting in the rape, with kim roberts as another victim pulled away from her at the bathroom door, kim stealing her money, and 3 other strippers being there. and they all have various different mixes as to whether she was struck, strangled, kicked, or not hurt at all. and i think i'm actually forgetting a version. and the best part is that the only consistent part of her stories (well, except for the one where she said she was just fondled and nothing else) was that she was vaginally raped, specifically described in her written statement as being from in front of her. and now she "can't testify with certainty" about even that.

and frankly, i just don't want to keep typing out stuff that's been documented elsewhere -- there's a ton more evidence the players are innocent, and there's not one shred of evidence she was raped (well, other than whichever one of stories you want to settle on). you'll just have to do your homework.

but as you say, clearly we have no idea whether these guys are rapists.

First, there’s the phrase “crying rape,” which came up a lot in the reaction to the woman’s accusations. (Typical is this Huffington post comment thread, which includes statements such as the following: “Typical BLACK liberal welfare...their immoral behaviour.”)

thank you using one random, racist post on another message board to show us what is a "typical" response to a claim of rape. this is a complete red herring.

The phrase implies that all a woman has to do is yell “Rape!” and a man automatically gets falsely convicted.

no, it implies he gets automatically branded as a rapist regardless of where the investigation or trial leads. which is evidenced further by this case. even if, as should be done, this case is dropped in the next month, maybe half the public will consider these guys rapists for the rest of their lives. do a thought experiment -- "william kennedy smith".

and almost as bad as being labeled a rapist is just being put in the spotlight. these guys held their annual stripper party, as 20 different Duke teams and/or groups do every year (male and female) and expected to never hear anything of it. yet one week later they have their faces on every newscast and magazine in the country, have protestors in front of their house, death threats from the NBPP, censure from their professors and some fellow students, and the wrath of every editorial page in the country. Three of them got kicked out of school.

and guess what -- this didn't happen after they got convicted. it didn't happen after evidence was gathered and disseminated. it happened upon one event -- a cry of "rape" by a drug-addled prostitute.

Moreover, studies show that just 1.6 percent of rape allegations are false reports.

links please, or the names of those studies. that statistic is nonsense, and no one should take your word for it. the rate is much higher than that. moreover, its another red herring. we don't convict or exonerate defendants based on a statistical likelihood that a rape accuser is lying or not. we base it on the facts of every individual case.

The second thing that struck me is how many people have rushed to the players’ defense by insisting that they’re “good, upstanding young boys.”

who's done that? these guys have been, and continue to be, savaged in the media. even now, as Nifong's last defenders are backing off the assualt claims, we're treated to "somthing must have happened there", or retreats to their "bad character" for having beers before they were 21, and daring to look at a stripper.

At the very least, these young men spent $800 to hire two escorts

what exactly do you mean by "at the very least"? was that an illegal action? are you honestly saying they deserve jail time because they saw strippers perform? if so, me and every other heterosexual male in the country need to turn ourselves in.

got one of them drunk

you're again just making stuff up. the accuser told multiple medical staff that she had several beers, before and during the party, and had taken muscle relaxant Flexeril earlier in the night. no one "got her drunk".

in fact, there are time-stamped photos of the accuser passing out on the floor at 12:03am - she didn't even arrive at the place until about 11:45pm. did the players use an IV?

also, since you seem to be big on unfounded accusations, let me nip one in the bud -- there was indeed a toxicology test done for the presence of date rape drugs and it was negative.

called her a “nigger”

this may or may not be true. this charge comes from
Kim Robert's written statement
but is not confirmed by any players. since Kim and the players have acknowleged the "cotton shirt" remark, its possible Kim is using a little literary license on this since her written statement doesn't detail the "cotton shirt" remark. either way, the player who said it deserves some scorn.

news reports say that the boys complained that the escort service hadn’t sent a white girl

what "new reports"? that's completely untrue.

using “a racial epithet,” yelled a racial slur at her and a friend as they left the party)

this is the only fair thing in your diatribe so far, as its a terrible comment. specifically, one of the players said "thank your grandpa for my nice cotton shirt". it was in response to Kim yelling, as she was about to drive away, "you limp-dick white boys, you're not real men. you had to pay for it."

i'm not excusing their response, but i do think its necessary to put it into context.

also, you're attempting to tar the entire team and the three defendants with the actions of one teammate. i doubt you'd feel just as comfortable saying every female student at NCCU is a drug-addicted, lying, prostitute. so if you're going to rip someone (and the comment deserves ripping) don't attribute it to "the boys". also remember that Collin and Reade were both long gone by then, and Dave was back in the house. those three are not on trial for knowing someone that would make a racist remark, they're on trial for rape (oops, sexual assault now).

and may have had gang sex with her. They’re not good guys.

again, this is something i'd expect from reactionaries back in April. there is literally no evidence against them. but there's tons of exculpatory evidence. please provide some basis, anything for christ's sake, that could possibly show these guys did what they're accused of. i'm not going to rehash eveything i wrote about (and i left a ton of evidence out for brevity's sake), but do guys that "may have had gang sex with her" volunteer to take polygraphs? do they offer to talk with police without a lawyer present? do they help the police gather evidence? do they (and their very competent lawyers) declare that there was no sex of any kind before they know the results of the DNA, when the easiest defense in the world (had anything actually happened) would have been consent?

And yet virtually everyone in the Duke community who has spoken up about the case portrays them as “fine,” “upstanding,” “wonderful boys.” (Don’t take my word for it: Check out this support page for the lacrosse players to get a sense of this dirty-black-whore-upstanding-young-innocents dichotomy. Sample quote: “You are ‘stand up’ men and I would be proud to have any one of you as my own son.”) The fact that they’ve been cleared of rape charges doesn’t make them paragons of virtue. These lacrosse players, and everyone who’s defended them and their actions on the night the alleged rape took place, should be ashamed of themselves.

another ridiculous argument (if i can even call it that). you're pulling out some random , obscure message board post and portraying as if it was the norm. nothing could be father from the truth. these guys got defamed left and right.

The male is a biological accident: the Y (male) gene is an incomplete X (female) gene, that is, it has an incomplete set of chromosomes. In other words, the male is an incomplete female, a walking abortion, aborted at the gene stage. To be male is to be deficient, emotionally limited; maleness is a deficiency disease and males are emotional cripples.

Hey Erica, PLEASE PLEASE don't support anymore environmental or bicycle causes. I don't want to be associated with you in any way. You make us all look like nuts too. You're an angry and very sick person, who has given up any claim to credibility! Please go away!

Charles - you mean straight boys are emotional cripples --- cause, honey, us gays throw a lot of attitude and emoting around and around.

You should know, working near Dan and the other pansy boys and all their trips. Lots of emotion about everything, all the time.

The rape stuff is interesting. I vote not guilty.

Sorry Erica, no evidence except lies.

The harm in this story is it makes the topic trivial. At no time should rape be tossed off as an accusation, not a silly drunken game, dears.

The accuser in this case was a stripper, not a prostitute, Headrock. You may not want to accuse Erica of hyperventilation and then hyperventilate yourself. Rocks in glass houses as it were.


As far as the coach getting fired and the lacrosse season getting cancelled, take that up with the Duke administration and every university administration across the country. Most universities don't like their athletic teams hiring strippers or doing most of the things that the lacrosse players have admitted to doing. Any coach is expected to keep his/her team under control. When he/she fails to do that, and the university can't look the other way (as Duke obviously couldn't with this much publicity), the coach gets fired.


Rape is typically a he said/she said crime. It's pretty difficult to level false accusations of theft or murder, for example. A good investigator could uncover goods that were allegedly stolen and it's pretty difficult to fake a dead body. Crazy assholes will make false accusations when they can, and, unfortunately, it's easy to make false allegations of rape. Even most real rapes leave little clear-cut physical evidence. All of you who automatically assume that an alleged rape victim is lying (because a small percentage make it up, because you don't want to believe any charge of rape, and/or because you balk at believing us lying, scheming bitches) should be ashamed. I weep for the women in your lives.


Just one final note, if Erica wrote and posted under the name Eric Barnett, she would receive a fraction of the vitriol that you guys heap on her head. I don't agree with her on everything. I think Twisty is an ass, for example. However, I would never assume that her positions on transit, environmentalism, or feminism reflect badly on me, and I would never express a wish to see harm come to her. But then, I'm not a misogynistic fuckwit.

It is not a crime to be sexist or racist.Nor a crime to be a bigot.What the DA has done in this case is a crime.

The accuser in this case was a stripper, not a prostitute, Headrock.

really? what are you basing that on? my justifications for calling her a prostitute:

- she had 2 "drivers"
- one of her drivers testified he drove her to at least 3 "private appointments" in Durham hotel rooms in the preceding 2 days before the party. apparently johns like to dance in hotel rooms.
- she had semen from at least 5 males on her, none of which belonged to a lacrosse player or even her boyfriend.
- she worked at an escort service (do i need to do the math for you?)
- she admitted to doing a private show with a vibrator in a hotel room the day before (does that sound like just a stripper?)
- kim roberts testified that Crystal was begging her to go back into the house because "there's more money to be made". now, seeing as how the guys had just paid $800 for a two hour show that lasted 5 minutes, how do you suppose she intended to make more money?
- she had regular shifts all the time at the Platinum Club for stripping. but apparently, there's such a demand for stripping that once she got off work she continued "stripping" for clients in local hotels.

what's the reasoning behind your claim?

and either way, i'd be happy to concede a phyrric vistory to you since it doesn't affect the case one way or another. just don't pretend you actually believe your pollyanish nonsense.

As far as the coach getting fired and the lacrosse season getting cancelled, take that up with the Duke administration and every university administration across the country. Most universities don't like their athletic teams hiring strippers or doing most of the things that the lacrosse players have admitted to doing. Any coach is expected to keep his/her team under control. When he/she fails to do that, and the university can't look the other way (as Duke obviously couldn't with this much publicity), the coach gets fired.

you're distorting my point. i was merely asking why one professional who oversees a subset of students for 2-3 hours a day is more culpable than another professional who oversees them for a similar amount of time, when the activity in question was off-campus and outside the hours of that oversight. i was just asking for consistency because to do so would highlight the folly of holding the coach directly responsible for unsanctioned off-campus behavior of some of the guys that he coached.

and just so i know whether you actually apply the principle equally -- would you demand the basketball season be cancelled and Coach K be fired? because i don't know if you're aware of it not, but the bball team had exactly the same party as the lax team one week earlier.

Rape is typically a he said/she said crime.

this is a grossly dishonest statement. technically its true, but that's because most rapes are acquaintence rapes, and in the majority of those cases the sexual contact is not disputed. its just the consent that's disputed. so of course physical evidence plays no role.

but in forced, non-acququainetence rapes there's DNA left all over the place every single time. the only exceptions would be if there was a significant delay between the rape and when the victim decided to report it, and/or the victim showered and washed her clothes (even then you'd be able to find stuff).

and none of this was true of the Duke case. it was supposedly a violent rape by strangers. the accuser was tested within hours of the event. more importantly, there was in fact tons of DNA found on her (in all three orifices) from at least 5 other males. even the freakin' LAB DIRECTOR got his DNA in there. but yet you still cling to the belief that it should just be the word of 1 vs 47.

Even most real rapes leave little clear-cut physical evidence.

if by 'real' you mean non-acquaintence rapes then you couldn't be more wrong.

All of you who automatically assume that an alleged rape victim is lying (because a small percentage make it up, because you don't want to believe any charge of rape, and/or because you balk at believing us lying, scheming bitches) should be ashamed. I weep for the women in your lives.

who said anything about assuming all rape claims are false? back in March i thought the guys were guilty (like almost everyone else in the country), based upon Nifong statements that are now known to be a crock. i'm a lacrosse player myself, and was pissed that a bunch of scumbags would sully the sport by association.

but unlike you, apparently, i followed this case all the way and came to my conclusion based upon evidence. i don't know what weird transference hangups you have, but "balking at believing us lying, scheming bitches" kind of had nothing to do with my evaluation of DNA evidence, or things like Reade being photographed at an ATM while the "rape" was supposedly occuring.

Just one final note, if Erica wrote and posted under the name Eric Barnett, she would receive a fraction of the vitriol that you guys heap on her head. I don't agree with her on everything. I think Twisty is an ass, for example. However, I would never assume that her positions on transit, environmentalism, or feminism reflect badly on me, and I would never express a wish to see harm come to her. But then, I'm not a misogynistic fuckwit.

wow, an ad hominem attack. whatever you do, don't address the substance of a critique. all you need to do now is compare me to Hitler and tell me i hate the women in my life and you'll get everyone to agree that Crystal got raped.

wow Erica you complain about people defending the players while constructing your comment from half truths and errors.

You site the NYT which has been widely criticised for it's biased reporting on the case. You site an NYT article from August 25th which was based on notes from from an officer who produced them from memory 4 months after the investigation and contain at least two lies.

The law does not give an accuser a right to a day in court. The DA is supposed to bring charges because he can meet the burden of proof.

Impossibly high standards of morality? The woman is a prostitute who has brought two false allegations in the past. She is currently pregnant with her third out of wedlock child has committed a felony and been less than dishonoranly charged from the military. Is the bar unreasonably high?

Please support your 1.6% figure since it is at odds with every LE figure ever published.

The woman by her own admission consumed alcohol and flexeril before she arrived at the party.

There was no DNA eveidence matching the players on the woman. How can you alledge they may have had gang sex with her?

Your post explains why people rush to the players defense. I notice nowhere do you discuss the evidence while you smear them. Why?

If Erica wrote as Eric --- I think the reaction would be STRONGER - most of the posts make a case and are not just fuckwits' babbling - had Eric presented similiar blather for fact as Erica presented - WOW, call the slog medics, cause the comments here would have shown no mercy or polite tones.

SLOG like all places in America is full of kindness to women. Men still defer to their fragile nature in most cases.

Not msyoginists or fuckwits, stupid remark - just pointed and well documented discussion of some good vigor - and Erica and Co. is losing badly.

Yes, Erica, the can of gasoline you threw in the fire ignited.

And, after getting singed, ones eye brows grow back.

Take a look at the link, Sidney. I don't even know how to respond to the claim that ...all places in America (are) full of kindness to women. Either you're being intentionally disingenuous or you're completely divorced from reality.

Headrock, not all of my comments were directed at you. Most were directed to various commenters whose viewpoints and thinly veiled misogyny disgust me. The reason I called you on the prostitute slur is that you seemed to be deliberately trying to smear the accuser. How much more condemnation must you rain down on her? Isn't it enough that she's made a false allegation of rape? I see no greater slur against her character than that.

The woman is a prostitute who has brought two false allegations in the past. She is currently pregnant with her third out of wedlock child has committed a felony and been less than dishonoranly charged from the military. Is the bar unreasonably high

This is really nice. No one is allowed to mention the character of the lacrosse players, but, by all means, let's come up with everything the (false) accuser has ever done wrong.

i was merely asking why one professional who oversees a subset of students for 2-3 hours a day is more culpable than another professional who oversees them for a similar amount of time

How the fuck should I know? Take it up with the Duke University administration. I don't think that parties or consensual sexual behavior, as long as they don't disturb the neighbors of the college, should merit disciplinary action, but I don't run a fucking college. College administrations don't like it when their sports teams make them look bad. They typically blame the coach because, according to my alma mater (at least), the coach is supposed to be in charge of the team and is held responsible when the athletes fuck up.

Rape is typically a he said/she said crime.
this is a grossly dishonest statement.

No, it's not. Like you said, most rapes are acquaintance rapes. Even with violent, "forced" rapes (I would argue that even most acquaintance rapes are forced) the physical evidence is not cut and dry. Yes, there's DNA. Yes, there's bleeding and vaginal tears/bruises, but these things frequently exist with acquaintance rape, and, yet, the few acquaintance rapists who are hauled into court, are usually acquitted.

and none of this was true of the Duke case.

I wasn't talking about the Duke case. Christ! I was addressing the ignorant attitudes toward rape and false allegations of rape in this comment thread.

Even most real rapes leave little clear-cut physical evidence.
if by 'real' you mean non-acquaintence rapes then you couldn't be more wrong.

I would never characterize non-acquaintance rape as "real." You couldn't be more wrong about acquaintance rape. The problem is that vaginal bruising/tearing and the word of the victim are often not enough for a jury.

To keshmeshi

The accuser in this case was a stripper, not a prostitute, Headrock.

How can you comment on this case if you don't know the facts. The woman worked for bunney Hole Escort service where they list the price for a one on one at four hundred dollars an hour.
Erica specifically said "they're not good guys" without offering any facts.
They have had there faces plastered all over the internet because of the charges of this woman who hides behind the rape shield laws.

I'll give you an example. Within one day telling the police she was so beat up she could barely move and seeking drugs for her pain from two hospitals she was pole dancing at a strip club. On the same night there was a candle light vidual in front of 610 Buchanon in her support.

There is no moral equality between the false accusers and the players. Why would anyone feel constrained about attacking her when after 9 months the onlything keeping the hoax going is her word.

"if Erica wrote and posted under the name Eric Barnett, she would receive a fraction of the vitriol that you guys heap on her head."

If Eric Barnett consistently wrote the same cranky, misinformed, unintelligible, axe-grinding, bullshit that Erica Barnett posts day after day, Tim and Dan would have fired Mr. Barnett long ago.

AH, it's great to see the community respond to such an ill-informed, victimizing post. I thought I raised some good points back up thread at 11 and 21, but there were even more good ones to come. And more importantly, the true colors of those few Erica-defenders showed through: every time someone wanted to defend her or attack those who found (all kinds of) fault with her post, their favorite way to do it was to call the posters racist, or sexist, or misogynistic. I LOVE it! They way they proved that Erica was right to judge people on the basis of no evidence was to judge people on the basis of no evidence. It's good to see that the hard-core victim-profession and male-bashing is still alive and well on some levels. (sarcasm off)
All those who felt the need to label those who desire evidence of rape before conviction misogynists, remember this: every time you put orthodoxy before reality, causes before people, and alliances before justice, you help the right wing convince an as-yet-politically-undecided young person that liberals really are ogres and male-bashing Chicken Littles. By playing the part, you help the right wing gain recruits. Good job!

So, Erica, all cleared up on that 'crying rape' business? Still wondering where the expression comes from, and why the act itself is bad?
"Crying rape' is bad because, forget about accusing someone of a felony falsely, it makes the public in general question women who come forward after having been raped.
The more you care about a good cause, the more vigilant you have to be regarding those who use it for personal ends. Collecting money for famine victims in Africa? If someone in your office uses some of the cash to buy a new carpet, you have to go after that person double-fast and press charges, otherwise who's gonna give to your cause, thinking, "Well, I'm just buying some clown a new carpet."
From what people have written upthread, it seems pretty clear that this woman pressed a false accusation. So, do you, Erica, stand up and say, "As bad as rape is, as bad or worse is a false accusation of rape made for personal gain." No, you shake your finger at everyone who had the temerity to ask for more evidence in the case, and say, because these lacrosse players are not great guys, they should be....what? Prosecuted for rape anyway? Charged with being 'not-great guys?' or 'mopery with intent to creep?'
So, the average potential jury-member reads this, and thinks, damn, even if a guy is innocent, these nutballs want him prosecuted for SOMETHING anyway, and they feel the right to call just about anything they want 'rape.' And when some genuine rapist who just sodomized a woman at knifepoint in an alley goes to trial, they'll be that much more likely to let him go free.
Way to go, sport.
Where is your sense of responsibility to keep this issue from being misused?

Good grief, Erica. You have obviously not been following this case closely. Blogger and history prof KC Johnson has been on it from the early days:
http://durhamwonderland.blogspot.com

"Moreover, studies show that just 1.6 percent of rape allegations are false reports."

Bullshit! Link to the studies or shut the F up!

"By the way, for you guys who love, love, love to bring up Tawana Brawley in these debates, Tawana Brawley was a dumb teenager who faked getting raped to keep from getting in trouble with her parents. She didn't do it to get cash or attention."

No but Al Sharpton (race baiter whore) sure got attention with that one didn't he?

Whist people debate whether one of 49 people at a party used a racist word, it should be remembered that there are far worse forms of racism which come in the form of lynch mobs and the automatic assumption of guilt based solely on skin color.

That is the racism which those boys were the victims of, and those who ignore that should look be ashamed.

woa everybody
the serious issues here aren't being talked about.
im talking about the future
on the good side
3 innocent people will not serve long term jail time
DA's and courts and the police have RULES and they have been affirmed.
Rules that poor and black people especially need.
another good thing i think is using the power of the state ie jail 3 white men
to advance the cause of black people and women has been delt a powerful blow
another good thing about this rape case is the defense and that includes
the 3 boys
they have waged this defense with alot of honor and the will to fight for the thruth. i think thats a good thing.
the party?
their real test has been this struggle
and they are coming out winners
about the bad things in this case
the NAACP leaving behind, i pray only for a short time, decades of legal struggles for the rights of the accused.
Most of the black organizations in durham and at duke just let it happen,
let a white politician try and string up 3 innocent people. All the innocent black people in jail, many serving long term
and the threat that it could happen to YOU brother, all that THRUTH up in smoke.
Most of the feminist's and organizations failed the fight against rape. More interested in futhering their political claims than fighting for a rape CASE ,the legal CASE to go forward. Sure will frightn many women who have been raped from coming forward because of the stupidily of many, many women at duke and durham.Sure wouldnt want to depend on any of their help in a real rape case.
All isnt lost at duke;
the womens lacross team and james coleman the black law school professor

Although liberals are squeezing their buttocks exhaling their last breath in in their desperate attempts to cast this as a racial issue it is not. It is about false rape allegations and our society's inclination to automatically pronounce the accuser correct and the alleged guilty prior to trial.

Whatever happened to Kobe Bryant? Did he ever get his advertising revenue reimbursed for the false charge brought against him?

The people done the most harm with false allegations of rape are the accused and the real rape victims. If those blind raging feminists here were truly concerned about women, they'd demand mandatory jail time for those making false allegations of rape.

But instead, they will pull out their easy cozy comforter of charging anyone who points this out as being a misogynist. Epithets are the fast food of lazy thinkers.

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