Comments on Declaring War On Nature

That's righteous, Dan. They have declared war on their own natures: that's exactly it. It's a sickness, and it's far more damaging, to themselves and to others, than anything some gay dude ever did with a hankerchief. These people are tragic, and what they're attempting to do to the rest of us -- because they are not just hurting homosexuals -- is worse than tragic; it's a criminal farce.

Uhmmm... How to phrase this so the evangelicals catch my meaning.

Testify, Sister! Shit who's bringing the Good News now?

(Forgive the above I'm not used to the spirt moving me to speak in tounges.)

Evangelical (Repressed Homo) Christians=Masochists. They seem to get something out of this ritualized abuse, and its not redemption. its just sad and sick.

You bring up an interesting point, Special K. What if this can be (or has been) turned into a kink?

Dear Savage Love: the only thing that gets me hard is preaching intolerance to my congregation, then getting together with my accountability partners and having a frank and honest discussion that ends in weeping, embracing, and eventually hot, hot action. My wife and kids and congregation don't know. When I'm with her, the only way I can keep it up is to imagine being rebuked by Pat Buchanan with a birch switch. But I can't live with the shame anymore, even though the shame is the only thing sustaining me. What should I do?

Or is it Birch Buchanan with a pat switch? I could go either way.

Of course it's a kink how do you think the Catholic Church has survived for nearly 2000 years. I mean, Mary, look at what they wear. Dresses! With cock shaped hats. For Christ(the hottie on the wall being worked over) sake!

Dan, it's a mistake to lump premarital sex and homosexuality, both of which are natural biological impulses crossculturally, with pornography: a product generated by a particular set of economic conditions and power relations.

I just Googled "Mineshaft" as instructed.

And?

One of your best posts ever. Keep throwing the sulfuric acid of reality in these hypocrites' and ignorancemongers' faces.

Economic conditions and power relations? Erotica has existed as long as art. If you distinguish pornography as a depiction of taboo situations, it arose out of the sexually fucked-up Victorian era, and perhaps economic status and power dynamics determined who was able to possess it then. But now, access to porn is practically universal, and the fact that it's seen as illicit doesn't have anything to do with economic conditions and power relations - it's more of a tradition that hasn't quite died out yet. I think it will with the generation that has grown up with the Intertubes, though.

Let the record show this as one of those times when Dan Savage is absofuckinglutely right on.

Interesting comparison, Mr. Savage.

It is my understanding that the Shakers, by about the 1840s, in addition to requiring celibacy, of course, also prohibited each other from... blinking in public.

I came out as Christian (still a straight fornicator) when the midterm elections gave me hope that there is such a thing as the Christian left, and that it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the alternative.

The more unsustainably batshit insane the Christian right becomes, the more politically unwieldy it'll be as well, and then we can all go back to actual Christian/human values like caring for the sick and the poor and not being assholes.

I can't find anything dirty for Mineshaft.

I wish more folks knew that same-sex sexual activity and pair-bonding are so common among non-human animals. Not only would this knowledge help people see that such sexual expression is perfectly "natural," but it would also provide yet another example of how humans are part of, not separate from or above, the rest of the planet's fauna. We do what other animals do, and it's about time we got over our defensive and deluded denial of that fact.

http://www.zebraz.com/Male%20Erotica/MINESHAFT_NIGHTS/Page_1/63576.html

That's about all I could find on the Mineshaft..

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Sometimes its hard to grasp where the left is coming from. being Libertarian I understand how .. well in our case we can get all huffy over the legality of the 16th Amendment .. So I'm sure there are topics within the left's idoligy that are similar.

..but I don't see why Christians can't think what they want.. why does this even bother you? screw em, they gotta right to be ignorant.

LOVE the article, Dan.
I just don't understand how gullible and stupid humanity is. How can members of the church (not the clergy but the members [sorry - parishoners]) say homos are despicable and evil and sinful one moment, but when one of their leaders is exposed as one of those despicable beings they say "Oh. That's so sad. I am so sorry for him."

@24

I don't think the problem is what they think, but the fact that they actively campaign to have everyone live the way they think..

That and the hypocrisy of denouncing gays as immoral, as people who could change if only they really really tried, and then it turns out that they're not even close to practicing what they preach.

Poignant comparison. I eat it up and so will most of the people who peruse this blog, but I'm not sure this kind of tone will win over many of the people who need to be won over.

"If it weren’t a desirable trait, natural selection would have eliminated it millions of years ago."

That's kind of funny, because these people don't generally accept evolutionary science either.

#24

As Americans, we believe "I don't have to agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it".

Unfortunately, the Christian Right, who is extremely influential in this country right now, don't believe this. That's the problem. They want everyone to believe what they believe and that means denouncing people who believe differently or just are different then they are.

When we sit back and let discrimination happen (or vote actively for it in the case of these anti-gay marriage laws), we all tacitly consent. Taken to the extreme, that's how facism happens and I think we can agree that facism ruins everyone's lives.

People can be ignorant, but a successful democracy depends on an informed electorate and that's wherein lies the problem. When misinformed people are making decisions about their fellow citizens, ("Gays and lesbians choose their lifestyle!" "Blacks are dumb!" "Young women are 'pre-pregnant'" "Hispanics are criminals" ad nauseum)

Anyway, I wish I could just sit back and not worry about the Christian Right legislating against my friends, my family, my neighbors, and myself, but I don't think I could an still be an American. (That is, if the concept of 'country' even matters and that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)

Dan: You're still my hero. I may try to sneak a link to this onto some right-wing sites; this needs to be read.

I only wish the unpleasantness of gay sexual "liberation" were a thing of the past; go check out Manhunt.net sometime--there's plenty o' stupidity going on still, and it breaks my heart more than it turns my stomach.

And I ain't no prude, neither.

Great post, Dan.

It should be pointed out that even the wildest, most promiscuous sex can be and practiced safely, and it is by some.

Ok, I have to add my reply to the Libertarian from #24...I don't care is someone thinks or believes something that find absurd, but all is fair on my side too. They have the right to express/believe/speak out; I have the right to mock/dispute/ridicule them.

And of course, no *CHRISTIAN* is satisfied to believe what they believe and leave everyone else alone. THey gotta "save" everyone...

Oh, yeah, and great post. I wish I could write like you. (tear)

Christian Guilt, man that is a dumb thing to choose live with.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, "I am the LORD your God. After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.

"None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD. The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

"The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness. The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

"Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness. Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time.

"Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

"And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

"Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: and the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

"Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;) that the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God."

Furthermore, Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

My friend, many people complain about the fact that God had commanded Israel to wipe out entire nations, but He did so because of sin. God still judges all sin today. Hell is his place of punishment. You know that the things that you write of are evil. Therefore, cease to do evil that the Lord may have mercy on you through His Son Jesus Christ. Hell is not the fun place that you think it may be.

Joshua, you have your mythology, and I have mine.

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