Comments on Aradia Closing

Damn. My company insurance plan doesn't pay for preventive health care. I've been going to Aradia for three years now for check-ups and have always been 100% impressed with the level of service I received. Damn.

this is heartbreaking news.

Re: Post abortion counseling. I can't imagine any amount of counseling would alleviate that psychic pain and guilt. Did they present adoption alternatives?

Just remember, PGR, you and other abortion opponents are responsible for that psychic pain and guilt. We are not born with innate morals; there is no necessary objective difference between aborting a human fetus and dissecting a fetal pig. Do you feel the decades of accumulated psychic pain for the slices of your x-acto scalpel in high school? Probably not. But if people regularly stood in front of the Supreme Court and mourned the passing of your fetal pig and prayed in churches across the country that you would repent for your actions, you'd probably start to feel some guilt—whether or not it was merited. Conversely, soldiers who take human lives are psychically shielded from their borderline moral actions through pervasive training. Some people suffer as a result their lethal actions in war; others do not. The connection between suffering and a morally questionable act is not a direct one. It's routed through the society that person participates in. Whether or not abortion is an immoral choice, I don't think your God (or whoever you think has decided that fetal life is precisely equivalent to other human life) would like to see you gloating over the suffering of other people. Jesus, even anti-abortion groups offer post-abortion counseling. Get over it.

Wow, Annie, I was just about to call PGR an asshole but you put it so much more eloquently.

I had an abortion seven years ago, when I was 19, and thought it was the best decision I've ever made. I continue to feel relief to this day that I was not forced to care for a child I am not ready or able to care for.

I feel sorry for the women who are made to feel guilty by dicks like PGR (and I'm not calling him a dick just for what he's said here, but on other posts, as well).

Don’t get so defensive, Annie. I believe that abortion must remain legal. I was just curious because typically adoption referrals are listed among women’s health services. And of course post abortion counseling is needed.

We are not born with innate morals, but we learn them. I don’t believe that abortion is immoral, but I believe that every single one (except in cases of the life of the mother, rape, or incest) is a tragedy.

"We are not born with innate morals, but we learn them. I don’t believe that abortion is immoral, but I believe that every single one (except in cases of the life of the mother, rape, or incest) is a tragedy."

I feel the same way about proud gay republicans

Aradia will not be easily replaced.

Too bad the Clinic is closing, but they did an excellent job. The staff and board, all the folks who made it work so well for so many years, they deserve a big THANKS from the communities of Seattle.

Back when, I joined in the counter picketing when the wacky right wingers showed up - what a bunch of dull wits. For those who think abortion is a singular issue, it was always interesting to hear all the homophobic comments from the "pro life" nut cases. As in, most common comment, "I could never live in this neighborhood with all these homosexuals."

THANKS YOU ARADIA, Seattle has been well served by your work.

This seems a little out of the blue? What's the story? Stranger: Find out.

vis a vis proud gay republican's remarks

why is it that MEN make the biggest stink about abortion? take a cue from Vietnam vets, who used to say 'if you weren't in 'Nam, then shut the fuck up.'

PGR, women get pregnant for all sorts of reasons. Some do it with loving forethought. Some get raped. Some get drunk and forget to use protection. Some get inadequate sex education and end up pregnant without even knowing how it happened. For some, keeping the baby is the answer, for some adoption. And for some, abortion is absolutely their best choice. I don't consider that a tragedy in any way.

A tragedy is when a woman is forced or pressured into having a baby she does not want, when the father takes no responsibility, and a child is raised with no love and support. THAT is a fucking tragedy.

Well, Aradia's amazing Executive Director, Marcie Bloom, retired this year, so that might have something to do with it.

I don’t believe that abortion is immoral, but I believe that every single one (except in cases of the life of the mother, rape, or incest) is a tragedy.

I can understand (though I disagree with) the idea that an abortion is only justified in cases of rape, incest, or risk of life of mother, but to say that it is a tragedy in all other cases but not in these cases just doesn't make sense to me.

PGR, can you explain your position on this in more detail?

I'm a staunch supporter of the idea that women and their doctors, not legislators, should determine whether a pregnant woman will carry to term. But I don't feel anything less for an egg cell with a sperm cell stuck in it that came about as the result of rape than I would feel for those cells if they had come together as a result of consensual sex. Ditto for a situation in which the woman's life in danger: I hold the same concern for the clump of cells regardless of whether their continued potential for developing into a human is likely to end the life of the woman in which they exist.

A tragedy is when a woman is forced or pressured into having a baby she does not want, when the father takes no responsibility, and a child is raised with no love and support.

Also a tragedy: a situation in which any one or two of those three conditions occurs.

It's ridiculous when the Gates Foundation has BILLIONS of dollars that valuable community resources in their own backyards flounder and die after years of excellent service.

All abortions are sad, if not tragic, events. But there are compelling reasons to have one, such as incest. But I would say that it is more tragic when the reason for the abortion is less compelling, such as in the direction of convenience. More tragic because a life will end for a less compelling, if not superficial, reason. But I agree, it’s up to the woman and her OBGYN and not the government.

Ginger: Of course men can and should speak their minds on this issue. It’s their kids too after all.

"It's ridiculous when the Gates Foundation has BILLIONS of dollars that valuable community resources in their own backyards flounder and die after years of excellent service."

Bullshit. The Gates Foundation exists to handle global scale poverty and health problems. We can't expect them to bail out every two-bit operation that we allow to fail. We need to take responsibility for our shitty healthcare system and our shitty attitude towards reproductive rights. Grow a pair.

men merely furnish the sperm, mr. dumbfuck republican. THEY don't get pregnant, THEY don't go through childbirth! got that? WE do the heavy lifting, and that's rich coming from someone who's never ever been near a women's vagina, let alone stuck their dick into one.

once again, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

No, it's fun to marvel at PRG's weird logic. Let'em keep going!

This abortion issue has little to do with children and mostly to do with control over women. Many people don't like the fact that a woman can get pregnant and then reject that pregancy and get on with their lives. They feel that somehow women have to pay a social price for getting pregant and feel shame about it. By keeping pregnancy a taboo for unmarried women, men (and other women) can have more control over them.

Traditionally, if a woman got pregnant out of wedlock, there was huge shame in that and society enforced that shame to keep women in line. With abortions, women can reject the whole controlling notion and the shame that goes with it. What is society to do?

The real "tragedy" here is that PGR is a total troll.

That being said, I think that it is extremely sad that a womens health care center has to be shut down, for whatever reason. Women have a difficult time getting adequate health services, and this will make the search even harder.

@Annie: You rock. It is too true that the "morals" placed on this issue are there from a society that perpetuates them. I, personally, don't take any issue with getting rid of replicating cells in a womans body. No matter what the reason, its a hard choice. People like PGR don't appreciate that because they can not begin to understand it. ever. They also forget about the THOUSANDS (millions if you count overseas) of kids that need to be adopted and dont get adopted. Those kids grow up getting abused, neglicted, generally with poor education. There are enough kids around. All because of the morals we place on replicating cells. *shakes head*

NO: It’s not about control; it is simply about providing alternatives to killing fetuses. It’s called adoption.
I personally have a friend (very liberal and very Bush hating BTW) who says she is haunted to this day about the abortion she had. She’s among a set of women it seems folks on this thread fail to acknowledge.

What a bummer.

The letter mentions that there are alternative women's health centers in Seattle. Are there? For women without health insurance?

Doesn't Planned Parenthood provide a lot of low-income women's healthcare? I thought that ours here in Western WA was supposed to be particularly good.

Monique. So you’re saying that because there are so many kids that are not being adopted that abortion is better? Well, at least they’re alive and have a chance for a better life. What number of kids should be waiting for adoption before you feel its OK to add more?

You would have probably counseled my cousin’s birth mother to abort, or even the birth mother of Dan Savage’s son to abort. Both were poor drug addicted women on the streets. That’s freaky.

The thing about PGR is his name. Who cares that he's gay? Why not just "Proud Republican" The reason he calls himself "PGR" is that he wants the readers to take him more seriously from his position as a sexual minority.

Anyway, anybody who is (out) gay and a Republican is an idiot and/or a troll.

Women do not get abortions for "convenience." A child is an 18-year commitment. Even if a woman chooses to give the baby up for adoption, she still has to endure a nine months of pregnancy and, unless she's white and especially if the baby is mixed-race, may have trouble finding an adoptive parent. What about the "psychic pain and guilt" of a woman who gave up her child to unworthy parents?

What's freaky is your hang-up about aborting a potential life. What if someone had counseled your cousin's mother or Dan's son's mother to use birth control? Would you be freaking out about that?

Keshmeshi: No, of course not.

@Troll (PRG): Using the "look at this person, see! See! its so great that their parents decided to not abort them" argument is flawed for many reasons:

1) You think that it is totally "understandable" for a women with 'certain' circumstances to abort. Which goes agaist your argument for "look at all the good kids to come from people who might have had abortions". By your "logic" then, all abortions should be eqaully tragic because of the people they might produce (not to metion miscarriages). If not, then its ok that a person produced from rape might be the next Da Vinci, but they can be 'terminated' and not Dan Savage because his mothers circumstances were not dire enough? That is BS. You can't have it both ways. Either its a tragedy because of the potential life, regardless of circumstance, or not.

2) You can name off plenty of great people to come from poor backgrounds that "make it" but I can bet you that there are at least 100X that amount that dont, and end up in prison or worse. I don't think that the replicating cells involved really can give a shit about life or ponder how they will live it, whereas the woman does care and does have to figure it out. Also, from your previous posts, I am guessing you are a fiscal conservative. So how are you going to pay for all these "potential dan savages?". Your ideal goverment will not take care of them and their mothers can't either. How will you fund all the extra adoption clinics, and then provide care for the unadopted kids for 18 years? That is a lot of tax money PGR....which you will not provide, so what then? They are forced into a cycle of poverty because the mother has to work all the time, the kids live in a poor area and has disadvatages, etc. This is ok to you? Rather then ridding someone of replicating cells in their body? You are the tragedy, PGR. You want to prove how moral you are, when your politics will never take care of the children you claim to protect. That is fucking sad to me.

3)And yes, there are too many damn kids that need to be adopted, but people are too selfish and want one that "looks like them", or they won't allow prefectly great parents to adopt because they are gay. Many children are not adopted because they are not blue eyed, white babies. So what then PGR? Those kids get stuck in that non-funded system I mentioned above? And no matter how many people make the choice to abort,there will always be people that do not want to abort, for whatever reason, or people who change their mind farther along in pregnacy. This assures there will always be a population of kids to adopt. So your ridiculous attempt to make it look like I am against kids will not work.

My final point, troll, is that abortion is something that you will NEVER understand. Its private, and the reasons for it vary. They are all valid reasons. Just because you can't understand them and you don't have to make the choice doesnt make them less valid. I am sorry your friend is still troubled over her decision. There are many support groups out there for her, which I hope she takes advantage of.

PS: Don't use Dan Savages personal life to back up your opinions. That is wrong and you should apologize.

Monique:

There is certainly nothing wrong with me mentioning adoption success stories, whether it be my Aunt, Dan, Joe SixPack, or whoever. I don't see your point on that. But if Dan chimes in and wants me to apologize, I’ll gladly do so for whatever the reason.

1 – You can't have it both ways. Either its a tragedy because of the potential life, regardless of circumstance, or not.

Yes it is a tragedy, or sad event (take your pick) because of the potential life and that’s what I said before.

2 – You are the tragedy, PGR. You want to prove how moral you are, when your politics will never take care of the children you claim to protect. That is fucking sad to me.

I can talk about adoption success stories and you can talk about kids ending up in prison. We’re at a stalemate on this one, except to say that I’m not a fatalist. So if a pregnant woman wanted to carry to term for adoption, you’d be advising her not to? Also, I bet you most of charitable contributions to orphanages come from Republicans, not from Democrats.

3 – And no matter how many people make the choice to abort, there will always be people that do not want to abort, for whatever reason, or people who change their mind farther along in pregnancy.

Yes, and that’s their choice. I was NEVER advocating denying that choice. Read my second post.

No, my friend will always be haunted, as she said. Only time can help. No amount of counseling could erase what she now regrets. That’s why adoption should always be presented as an option. It’s about THOSE women, like my friend.

Of course adoption should be an option. So should abortion. Neither one is more or less tragic or wonderful than the other.

However, it's better to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place (it's cheaper and less mentally and physically taxing) so that's were solid, comprehensive sex ed should come in.

Let's make sure that people have access to birth control and have a full understanding of where babies come from. (Even adults forget all the time.)

@PGR #3:

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you about the morality of abortion, but I'd like to answer your original question,"Did they (Aradia) present adoption alternatives?"

Yes. I had an early abortion there six years ago, and I was offered counseling, as well as support groups. When I became accidentally pregnant again a few years later, they helped me again, by pointing me to Open Adoption and Family services, an adoption agency that encourages birthparents and adoptive families to form lasting bonds for the sake of the child. (I was farther along this time, and decided that for me, in this case, abortion was not appropriate.) Oh, and OA&FS is one of the few adoption agencies that are not religiously based and will work with gay prospective parents.

One last thing: You're insinuating that women's health clinics are thinly-disguised baby-killing factories. This is another one of those shrill bullshit lines that the religious right likes to throw out every now and then. I encourage you to take a look at the Planned Parenthood Website, where they explain not only the procedure itself, but the decision making process that they actively engage a woman with before performing an abortion.

"Bullshit. The Gates Foundation exists to handle global scale poverty and health problems. We can't expect them to bail out every two-bit operation that we allow to fail. We need to take responsibility for our shitty healthcare system and our shitty attitude towards reproductive rights. Grow a pair."

Whatever - the Gates Foundation gets a free pass from Americans when we should be questioning their giving choices every step of the way.

Small clinics across this country are being seriously fucked over on a regular basis and it would take VERY LITTLE help from a large charitable organization (like the Gates Foundation) to help them become sustainable.

But it's the less political move to assist with reproductive health care in the third world than in the U.S.

In other news, go fuck yourself.

People,
While we are busy arguing the finer points of the abortion debate clinics are closing for lack of community support...I think that is the "back story" on Aradia.

Does anyone here have any memories from when you were in the womb? I don't either. That's because a fetus has no mind, and with no mind there are no memories, no thoughts, no relationships, no communication abilities, and therefore no personhood. Ethically speaking, abortion is equivalent to eating scrambled eggs for breakfast. There is no real difference.

Abortion is a "difficult decision" only because we insist on making it so. The anti-abortion cause is just one monumental manifestation of the seething sexual prudery of religious fanatics mentally trapped in the middle ages.

The pro-life movement, overwhelmingly led by men, is a reaction to the sexual liberation of modern women, which they see as not only horrifically sinful and contrary to their worldview of sexually pure and obedient women, but also as a powerful temptation to sin for men. This issue is not about life at all, but entirely about the disturbed, fanatical hatred of sex.

I don't know where to begin to pick apart your contorted logic Robert. So I guess it just comes down to this, some people think of a human fetus as something special, and some just think of it as scrambled eggs. I'm just grateful I'm not so cavalier and jaded.

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