Comments on All Ages Shows in Trouble. Again.

It would have been nice to have Stephanie Pure in the legislature to fight this one back.

She has expertise on the issue.

or Jim Street, either one. Let's see how Jamie P does now. He should stop this or be kicked out of office asap.

This must be stopped. Mayor Greg Nickels can greatly influence this by opposing it. Make sure he does by writing him at http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/citizen_response.htm and Jordan.Royer@Seattle.Gov, james.keblas@seattle.gov and RmLaBelle@seattle.gov

You also need to write the liquor board - wslcb@liq.wa.gov and their lead on this, Pam Madsen - PKM@LIQ.WA.GOV

and write your State representatives http://www.leg.wa.gov/legislature/ - this is VERY important.

Supposedly, Seattle City Attorney Tom Carr is behind this, probably working with the Seattle Police who have wanted to stop all ages shows since the 1980's.

write to Tom Carr here - thomas.carr@seattle.gov

PLEASE FORWARD!

What stupid wording. That "live entertainment ... as it’s primary customer draw" clause provides a gaping loophole for dance clubs that only play pre-recorded music, no?

So they're throwing the kids out of the rock clubs, while opening the doors of the discos. Way to go, liquor board!

a dj will be considered 'live entertainment', as will karaoke, poetry, theater, etc, etc.

i just don't understand these laws. are they thinking society will descend into anarchy if underagers are in the same room with booze? is this all just a case of "what about the children?!" thinking run amok?

Dave, I realize you're trying to put the most oppressive spin on this as you possibly can, but there's no way, given the language in the SLOG post, for the law to distinguish a DJ from CD player or even a Muzak receiver (which has to be turned on and set to a channel by a human being).

You've got a history of blowing things out of proportion, Dave (cough Paradox cough cough), so I'm not buying your argument until I've seen the draft legislation.

Anyone have a link to the actual legislation Megan cites? The seattlenma.org site links to a white paper, but the language cited is not in that .pdf file.

I'm not blowing it out of proportion. Say what you want, I don't do that. What I do, is speak from experience. This proposal is being driven at least in part by the SPD, the Mayor's office and The City Attorney. They has in the recent past, like last month, proposed language in an ordinance that defines live entertainment as including DJ's. No spin, just fact.

PS - someday I hope you have the spine to use your real name.

Someday I hope to see the WSLCB disbanded. Totally. Liquor sales to grocery stores (or whoever) liquor licenses to the cities as per their zoning regs.

It's retarded, and it needs to die. We will never be "world class" until it does.

Just. Kill. It.

Ooh, I'm spineless for posting anonymously, am I?

Come on, Dave, Why not go all the way and accuse me of being on the Mayor's staff and a member of Mars Hill and part of the illuminati, too?

As I pointed out to Kwab some time ago, the people who puff themselves up for using their real names on SLOG have a remarkable tendency to be people whose names already have public cachet (and they tend to be people involved in the music biz, too, for whatever that's worth).

If I were using my real name, I'm quite sure you'd be hinting at "I'm Dave Meinert and Who The Fuck Are You" instead of "I'm Dave Meinert and you're a chicken shit."

There are lots of reasons for posting anonymously, but there tends to be only one reason for questioning the practice; that being to avoid the actual arguments presented and instead attack the person presenting them. There's even a fancy Latin term for it.

Now please, someone show me the draft language of the proposed legislation.

I'd send you the draft, but can't unfortunately...it'll be up on www.snma.org soon I hope.

Ps - did I avoid your argument? seems you avoided my counter. oh well, pettiness all around, more important is this fucked up bill.

You did, in fact, avoid my argument about the difficulty of applying the law to DJs, which was the only point I had to begin with.

But yeah, you're right, this is a sideshow.

Another thing I'm curious about is what parts of this proposal are bargaining chips, and what parts are actually expected to get out of committee, but I guess there's no way to figure that out short of bugging some offices.

Oh, and you can go ahead and send the bill to robotslave@gmail.com

Does this mean that places like the Crocodile won't be allowed to serve minors in the restaurant during the day?

I know his is derailing things worse and even ammounts to petty ganging up on Dave but I gotta say it. Sorry Robotslave.

Meinert. This forum is the glory hole of civic dialogues. Don't try to change the game at halftime. You knew the rules when you signed up to play.

I can offer you some obvious insight (which you really don't need but here it is anyway) Say I depend on the Seattle nightlife ownership's oligarchy (of which you can deny being a part of) to make a living. if I want to take issue with something one of you say here in this public forum you need to understand it's important to me that it never becomes personal. (I know, I know...no good man worth his weight in salt would ever do that, right?)

Don't sweat the anonymity, it's a bad look for you. It's very Bushy. Don't be a bully. People are allowed to disagree with you, even if they don't own any clubs or run Mass Market or whatever it is.

Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I strongly second the motion to abolish the LCB. Total bullshit. Why can't I buy interesting or obscure liquors in this state?

Bull. Shit. I was an adolescent during the reign of the TDO, and I will say, nothing, NOTHING will cause college students to flee the state faster than not being able to see their favorite bands when they come through the area. Say it with me, LCB: BRAIN. DRAIN.

I vehemently third the motion.

I'm all in favor of bringing WA out of the prohibition era, but frankly, if the motion has been seconded, you don't "third" it, you act on it.

Particularly if you own a successful nightclub and have some money and spare time you could throw at the problem.

God, it's like having dinner with the Bickertons. Enough!

Megan, please clarify: Who submitted what to whom? Is the Mayor submitting this to the LCB or did they spontaneously come up with this themselves? (I mean, why contact the Mayor if it's the LCB who is making the decision? Who made the announcement?) The post isn't clear.

No one in the legislature will ever do anything to help the nightlife-loving public because they are not politically organized. Thank you to the Seattle Nightlife Music Association for forming and alerting us to this! It's a great start and I hope this organization quadruples in size and funding in the upcoming year and includes those who enjoy nightlife as well as venue owners.

Back in 1999, the Liquor Control Board changed it's rules and that resulted in people under 21 to be able to attend shows as long as they were out of the bar by 10PM. To my knowledge, there haven't been any incidents or problems that would warrant the change. There's simply no reason for it.

Plus, it's not clear to me who the constituency for these anti-all-ages rules is. Who are these decision-makers appealing to? Who is lobbying the Mayor and the LCB? Developers? Bureaucrats?

Anyway, let's get a copy of the legislation and start the emails. There's so much to do.

"Plus, it's not clear to me who the constituency for these anti-all-ages rules is. Who are these decision-makers appealing to? Who is lobbying the Mayor and the LCB? Developers? Bureaucrats?

Frightened parents of teen-agers.

Overprotective parents, if you like, but that's still a lot of parents. Also, anyone else sympathetic to "think of the children" hand-wringing (like, say, local TV news programmers).

Is it baloney? Yes, it is baloney. But it is powerful baloney, and we're going to need more than dismissive snorts to counter it.

Thanks for the kind words, Alice Cooper.

Pure, do you have any contacts who have experience with ballot initiatives?

Just askin'. As a friend, you know.

This is a State bill which has not been introduced yet. It stems from a liquor control board meeting that took place in Tacoma a few months ago - attending that meeting was Jordon Royer and Bob Scales with the Mayor’s office, and Tom Carr, Tamara Soukup and Ed McKenna with the City Attorney’s office. Supposedly the Washington Restaurant Association (WRA) is pretty supportive – the deal is nightclubs have to get a license and special conditions, the state eliminates some rules for restaurants.

It seems like this is being pushed by the Seattle Police and their representative from the City Attorney's office Tamara Soukup. A couple of years ago the State tried to change the rules about 'mixed use' venues. At the time I spoke to the Liquor Board and they stated that they didn't care about the mixed use (all ages with alcohol) shows at all and that the City of Seattle was driving the rule changes. When I spoke with the Mayor's Office they claimed to not know anything about it. It tuned out that the Seattle Police Dept, which is the spokesperson for the City to the LCB, was the backer of the changes, via Tamara Soukup. The Mayor's Office ended up opposing the rule changes and so they were dropped. But this time it at least seems the Mayor's Office is aware if not supportive of the changes.

This is not the result of complaints by parents or any issues with the all ages shows. From what I understand there are no issues or problems with all ages shows at venues with liquor. In fact, we invited Tom Carr to a President's mixed use show at the Showbox because he had never been to one. He was taken to it by James Keblas from the Music Office. He saw how well it was run and seemed to understand there was no issue. So it is very surprising that we are facing something even worse than the proposed rule changes a couple of years ago.

A few more things to put this in more context. First, Jordan Royer from the Mayor's Office is the architect of the Joint Assessment Task Force and the new Seattle Nightclub Ordinance. Tom Carr is the mastermind behind all of the drqaconian 'Good Neighbor' agreements bars like Twist and the Blue Moon have had to sign. And back during the TDO fight ending in 2000, there was no support of the TDO coming from the community or parents. It's only support seemed to be coming from the Seattle Police. They have been pissed since losing that fight.

Anyhow, sorry for the long email. Lots more will be written about this over the coming weeks I am sure.

Oh, and new State Senator Ed Murray has already come out against this. Please, Please, Please write all the state legislators asking they oppose this legislation. I would also recommend joining or donating to the SNMA. They need money to work to fight this.

It's good to see Stephanie Pure on this early on. We need her and the Council to vocally oppose this. Seattle has about 60% of the liquor licenses in the state and what the City of Seattle wants it will get from the LCB.

ps - to find your local representatives at the state level so you can write them, go to http://capwiz.com/grammy/state/main/?state=WA&view=myofficials and type in your zip code. Be sure to include your address when you write, or they will ignore you. They need to know you are from their district.

Fuck, so I guess we can expect to fight this out every 22 months or so?

Dude, I'm so sick of breaking myself in terms of time and money over simple common sense issues.

Fuck it. Let the goddamned kids find their fun in the streets. Let Seattle find out 200 years later what everyone else already knows.

I can't be bothered.

What someone needs to dissect is the internal politics and nepotism at the WSLCB. The group wields a great deal of power with little to no oversight.

Ultimately, I'm with FNARF and Calaline Del-Ray on this one.

Im' ALWAYS with Fnarf and Catalina. They should run (anonymously) for office.

*Sigh!* Once again it appears the SPD, in its never-ending quest to root out evil under every rock and clod of dirt in Our Fair City (while at the same time valliantly assisting the clearly victimized State Restaurant Association maintain its decades-old near-monopoly on liquor-by-the-drink sales), has once again thrown its considerable weight behind yet another draconian piece of legislation aimed primarily at granting them the power to harass otherwise law-abiding citizens, because apparently that's SO MUCH EASIER than actually doing the harder work of preventing, investigating and arresting perpetrators for actual CRIMINAL activity.

Can we just pass a law here that says basically, "The SPD is empowered to enforce stupid alcohol and drug behavior-modification laws only AFTER they have demonstrated to the public that their current backlog of unsolved rapes, murders, burglaries, car thefts, assaults, hit-and-runs, purse-snatchings, and other criminal acts against the public good have either been solved and prosecuted, or have been thoroughly investigated to the point where a reasonable person would ascertain the case does not have sufficient evidence at-hand to be successfully resolved."

(And I'm more than happy to help out in that regard. Note to Officer Williams, East Precinct: I once again spotted the car that pulled the uninsured hit-and-run on me over two months ago parked at the corner of 18th & E Marion yesterday evening at approximately 5:45 p.m. Go get 'em.)

jesus christ, i don't know why the slog has to be so mean spirited sometimes. i take a break and come back to see the same old name calling and bullshit, rather than a smart dialog about an important issue.

meinert has both the experience and knowledge on this issue to at least get a little respect here.

Thanks Kerri.

I have been in touch with the Mayor's office and they seem to have been blindsided by this. They need to research it and see where it is coming from before they come out with a specific response. But they are saying they do not support anything that limits young people's access to music. And the Mayor's Office of Film and Music is definitely active on this.

A couple of years ago when a similar proposal was put out by the LCB, the rules were drafted by Tamara Soukup in the City Attorney's office. She works under Tom Carr, the City Attorney, and represents the Seattle Police. At the time, the Mayor's office was also caught off guard by the proposed rule changes and basically, along with several council members, killed it. I suspect something similar is happening here, and it appears that Soukup is involved again. So people need to let the Mayor, City Council, City Attorney and State reps know they support mixed use all ages shows. With a bunch of citizen outcry this proposal could be killed before it gets sent to the Legislature.

i just wanted to add that youth under the age of 21 are almost always "live entertainment" in and of themselves so this is bad legislation!!!!

Why is there a LCB again? What will it take to dismantle them?

This and the whole strip club thing stink of RICO violations. I think I saw Hoffa at Rick's.

Everybody cut...Footloose!

Meinert, make it all go away, Dad.

I have spent the last two evenings in Chicago (having taken the Somewhat Roundabout way back to Iowa) and I have to say it's nice to be in a place where adults are treated like adults.

For instance, when the family goes out to dinner, and mom and dad want to have a cocktail while waiting for their table, they can go in the bar with the kiddies! No one has a heart attack, the children don't become alcoholics, the divorce rate doesn't soar - in fact, the world goes on. Try that in Washington state, and the Puritans on both sides of the aisle would have grand mal seizures.

Or boobies: You can go to a strip club in Chicago and - hold onto your panties - have a cocktail while seeing some T&A. Again, no one dies, they don't have an "epidemic" of strip clubs, and life goes on - it's really amazing. But try that in Seattle, and you'd have every shrill-voiced woman (and the men who fear them) screaming about how demeaning that would be for Our Daughters, and how it would mean that every bar in town - from the Cuff to Canlis - would suddenly be overrun by newly deflowered lassies shaking it to "Low Rider".

Lastly, I know that if I needed a bottle of booze, I could just walk over to the Jewel at Clark and Division, and buy one. From a union employee, so anyone who uses the ridiculous justification of "union jobss" when talking about the WA State liquor stores can just shut up about it proactively.

(I could also wax poetic about what you can do in the privacy of your booth in "adult arcades" here, that you can't do in Seattle, but delicacy forbids such talk on a family website like this)

That's Chicago, in the heart of the Midwest - but all of that is also true at my final destination - which is are red and Bibley and generally backward as you can hope to achieve without crossing the Mason-Dixon.

I know nothing about the "teen dance scene" here (back when I was a teen, we called them sockhops, and gathered around the Victrola) but I'm sure there is a similar rational way of looking at these things.

Washington State, and Seattle in particular, needs to grow up. For a town that was sustained by prostitutes and booze during its tender years, we sure still have a stick up our collective butt about vice.

This is sad. I will do everthing I can to make sure this new bill stops. I am going to email these representives. THis is absolutly uncalled for. I do not understand, this will not solve anything.

If this bill becomes inacted into a law that would mean they would also have to dismiss people under the age of 21 from not entering, family restraunts because they surve alcohol. That means: The Keg, the Olive Garden, Game works exc. ect. for the law to be equal. This is absolutly herendous.

Oh, so you'regonna let our precious children dance and carouse under the influence of the deavils music but I can's smoke in a bar or enjoy an unhealthy meal full of transfat?

Suck it, you old white people.

So.... non-white people are 100% for smoking and transfat consumption? Where does that leave the poor Mullatos?

#9: casuistry?

What if it's a move to get all those youngsters who haven't registered to vote to do so.

I don't give much merit to the thought myself but ... eh.

I'm trying to find more information on this, but can't find it ;(

If this bill passes, does that mean that they'll stop selling beer at baseball games and such? That's live entertainment.

It's a bunch of bullshit. And as a persons under 21, if they take away my shows I could start doing other shit, illegal shit just to entertain myself.

I'm still not sure where the motivation for these changes is coming from, but there is some god news. What we have found out is that proposed Nightclub license has something to do with the State's cap on the number of liquor licenses it will allow statewide. Under the proposal it seems there will be no new restrictions or limits to new licenses for restaurants and bars, but music and entertainment venues will be capped and have to have a special license with many oppressive new rules. The Washington Restaurant Association is of course supporting this and it seems they have sold out the music community. This may need to result in a boycott of any restaurant associated with the WRA, but more on that later.

Now the good news - Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels has officially told the Liquor Board that they do not support the proposed Liquor Law changes, will not support them in the legislative session, and oppose anything that will limit young people's access to music. From what I've been told Seattle City Attorney Tom Carr also does not support the proposed legislation.

Newly elected State Senator Ed Murray has also said he will help fight this, and State Representative Dave Upthegrove also says he will not support it.

So we know we will have support in fighting this legislation but it is still very important that you let the Liquor Board and State Legislators know how much you oppose the proposed legislation. It would also be great if you wrote the Mayor and City attorney thanking them for standing up for All Ages shows and a healthy nightlife scene in Seattle and the State.

Please write your legislators telling them you oppose the creation of a nightclub license and any rule changes concerning all ages at concerts by going here - http://www.leg.wa.gov/legislature/ and the Liquor Bard saying the same at- wslcb@liq.wa.gov and their lead on this, Pam Madsen - PKM@LIQ.WA.GOV

Write Seattle's Mayor and City Attorney thanking them for their continued support of All Ages music and asking them to support nightlife in Seattle by going here http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/citizen_response.htm and writing Seattle City Attorney Tom Carr - thomas.carr@seattle.gov

If you want to help fight this legislation and other anti nightlife and anti-music legislation, join the Seattle Nightlife and Music Association www.seattlenma.org/news/index.php who will be lobbying hard yo fight this in Olympia.

Thanks for you quick support on this. Your emails have already made a huge difference in shedding light on this horrible proposal and turning the tide against it. It's not over yet though, so please stay active.

I realy like how no other news covered it. Way to go and they call themseves news? I thank the stranger for the work in covering important and relevent news. While the others are the first to report on Britney Spears break up with Kevin (what ever his last name is) * Sigh.

i hate this issue. its everywhere. im living in new mexico but my hearts in seattle. im only 18. i dont go to shows anywhere for the booze. i can get that shit just walking out of my house. the kids that go to the shows go for the music. its not about the alcohol. thats just plain fucking stupid.

While this proposed legislation would suck if passed, I think people are blowing things out of proportion a little. It would not be the end to all ages shows at all, this would only effect a handful of bars in Seattle and one in Tacoma that serve alcohol and do all-ages shows. These are big rock clubs with beer and cigarette advertising everywhere, corporate sponsorships, inflated cover charges, etc. It's these clubs and people that profit from them that should be most concerned. However, true all-ages spaces, which are usually a healthier, more DIY, cheaper and more community-building, would not be effected at all. And no doubt more true all-ages spaces would pop up without the competition from bars. Personally, the part that bothers me most is the bill as currently written is it would not allow bands with members under 21 to play in bars as well. And more importantly, this is just another attempt for local lawmakers to pass unclear, over-ruling legislation to control our behavior and make our lives more boring and sedate... just like there's! Here is a copy of the legislation if anyone wants to read it: http://www.tabletmag.com/nightclub_license.pdf