Metroblogging Seattle is the Seattle Weekly of blogs: a day late, too mainstream to be a real blog, and thus irrelevant, yet strangely popular with similarly clueless readers.
I'm so sick of this goddamn president....
Many years befor Reagan became America's favorite vegetable I flipped him off at a campaign event.
I loathe Bush and Reichert so much, but I'm really torn on this issue; I hate the appearance that she was fired because the intended recipient of her gesture was Bush, but I think we need to acknowledge that maybe we don't want bus drivers flipping the bird when they have a bus load of people (even if the students didn't see her--since I think that's just by chance). Would you feel differently if she flipped off a random person? I don't want her to be fired, but I'd love to see someone (esp. dan) address that concern.
Kids need to learn it's A-OK to flip off the president when he's fucked up the world so much.
Telling the Prez to fuck off is a constitutional right.
And give her back pay for the time she was off work.
It's like the Dixie Chicks drama all over again...
For a less matronly take from a middling local blog check us out at Seattlest where we investigate the "pattern of behavior" the driver was fired for and extol the many virtues of Congressman Dave Reichert.
I think that Reichert's involvement in this was awful, and I agree that a bus driver should be allowed to speak about his/her political views. I also agree that it is disturbing that Bush can get away with SO MUCH more. But I don't think that's the issue here. If a bus driver flipped off a random driver, would you oppose some sort of disciplinary action? If so, why not here? I don't think the 1st amendment would protect a school bus driver flipping off a random driver...the only argument I can come up with is that this is distinguishable because it's political speech. But I think that's a stretch under current 1st amendment law.
Basically I want someone to give me a sound, rational argument why this is distinguishable from the random flipping of the bird.
sorry--that's supposed to say "if you wouldn't oppose disciplinary action, why is this different?"
Disciplinary action: sure. A reprimand, maybe. A day off without pay if you're going to take a hard line. But a pink slip? Maybe if she'd talked the whole bus into giving him the bird. But she didn't.
Ginger: I think you're politically parsing this (bird affairette) just a feather too much. When I was in Viet Nam, I noted john graffiti one day that went something like: "In order for a man not to see anything worse the rest of the day, he would have to swallow a whole live toad every morning." Show whatever children you're concerned about the "required viewing" YouTube that Dan just posted and then perhaps you'll be able to balance out the idea of children seeing people getting the finger is so benign.
What the bus driver did while on the clock was stupid. Bragging about it at a picnic, as she reportedly did, was even stupider. It doesn't matter whether you work for a school district or a corporation; when you're on the clock, what you do is seen as reflecting on who you work for. I can't think of a job I've had where that kind of behavior would be considered acceptable.
That said, the punishment seems out of proportion to the offense. She should be reprimanded, maybe even suspended, but not fired.
i couldn't agree more with cat @ #2.
also agree with the union rep; kids are already well aware of profane words and gestures that adults use. i wonder how many kids on that bus watch south park?
kids are little, not dumb. recent conversation in my home:
8 y.o. niece: how come the pin in the bathroom has a grown up word?
[button in question reads fuck the republican party]
me: sometimes you need grown up words to express how strongly you feel about something. i really don't like what republicans do to our country.
niece: is george bush a republican?
me: yes.
niece: oh. well, that's ok then. he never should have started the war.
Please!? Flipping the bird...fireable offense?!?! Someone explain to me then how those professional basketball players who engaged in the "basketbrawl" are still working?! And don't even talk to me about Mike Tyson. And our sports hero's are our children's role models..HA! Let's talk about "proper on the job conduct."
Save the Children: I'm not personally concerned about kids seeing someone get the finger. I agree they're exposed to it. But I don't think that makes it ok for a bus driver to do it on the job. More importantly, I know that's what people on the other side of the political fence are arguing...and I'd just like to hear an argument in response.
On the face of it, I agree that the response is overly-harsh and that a less-harsh action might have been the better route. If Renton was willing to hire her, perhaps that refutes what Issaquah is saying about other problems in the past.
in other words, you're just defending yourself from looking like an ass.
Karyn makes a good point: why forgive the rich for greater offenses than the ones that get little people fired? Or vice versa: why punish the poor but slap the rick on the wrist?
I think this just finally gave me reason to unsub from SLOG. Thanks. =)
ouch, Seattl98104. i didn't realize i looked like that much of an ass, so i'm not sure exactly how to respond to that. i think it was a reasonable question, and i'm just being frank that i find some persuasiveness on both sides of the argument, and i'd like other (smarter) sloggers to help convince me of the argument i'd like to get behind.
I'm sickend by what a yes-man Dave Reichert has become. It's almost cartoonish.. " oh you're upset mr. president.. do something about it?.. uh ok.. yeah.. let me 'tell'on her".
good god..
You darn right she should be fired. It dosen't matter if it was the President or not (although she should show respect to our countrys leader even if she dosen't like him. Show it in your vote if you don't like him. The fact remains that she did it in front of the children which is just flat wrong. If my child was on the bus you can bet I would make sure she was fired. Zero tolarance. You people that think it's all right are just showing your ignorance and IQ. By the way I'm a bus driver also.
Re Ed'n'Avis there in #22: Every account of this I've read has indicated that the gesture was not visible to the children. While I agree it was unprofessional, this isn't about the kids being exposed to an obscene gesture (which they probably see on the playground every day, anyway.) They wouldn't have seen it.
I really can't see Bill Clinton even getting upset over someone flipping him off.
Well, you could clump all of us Metrobloggers together as supporters of this driver being fired but that would prove that no research into the subject was done whatsoever.
I don't think she should have been fired. In fact, I would fucking love to have seen it and flipped that fucker off too.
Having your feelings hurt by the "Society Matrons" is no reason for hackneyed journalism.
I
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