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RSS icon Comments on On Pedestrian Safety

1

Absolutely. A five year ban would be good enough, but permanently is better.

They should also have the power to confiscate your vehicle. There are thousands of unlicensed drivers on the roads, driving with impunity. Take their cars.

Posted by Fnarf | November 16, 2006 6:46 PM
2

Why does the city only respond to this kind of thing as a "priority" when it is one of their own?

Posted by non | November 16, 2006 6:48 PM
3

I'm with you, Erica. No more driving for anyone who can't do it well enough to avoid hitting someone in a crosswalk.

The recent plague of car-pedestrian accidents in the news is distressing. Even people outside of crosswalks are not supposed to be fair game. We are on the verge here in Seattle of becoming a dense enough city to be really walkable, but we are going to remain a big suburban town until we take back some of the territory we have ceded to cars.

Posted by Linda | November 16, 2006 6:56 PM
4

FNARF's comments seem fair to me. Very few cities take pedestrian safety seriously. Pedestrians are generally seen as an interference to the flow of auto traffic in conventional urban planning.

Furthermore, I'd get rid of the assumed right-turn-on-red-unless-marked rule. It's insane. Time arrows with "don't walk" signals on busy streets where traffic shouldn't pile up, otherwise, cars shouldn't be allowed to share crosswalk space in heavily trafficked urban areas.

Posted by Dougsf | November 16, 2006 7:10 PM
5

If only ... I was hit by a car as a pedestrian (in the crosswalk, crossing with the walk signal) about 3 years ago, at the intersection of 5th & Battery. Guy ran a red light, slammed into a car that was legally in the intersection, then spun around and hit me. I spent a week at Harborview and several months afterward getting back up to full strength.

The guy that hit me? Got slapped with a ticket for running a red light, got a lawyer, and got out of it.

This is definitely not being taken seriously enough.

Posted by KC | November 16, 2006 7:10 PM
6

I was driving downtown today and traffic was Horrible! Cars sat in line sometimes for 3 successive lights to turn off of one one-way street onto another! Why? Because cavalier pedestrians waltzed across preventing the turns, lattes in hand. It's good that I had the Misfits on, because if I didn't have an outlet for my road rage, I would have mowed one of 'em down. Proponents of density better be prepared for more 'accidents'.

Posted by the night before fryday | November 16, 2006 7:17 PM
7

What if the driver is not at fault?

Go here: http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/pedrcw.htm

and peruse the laws. Note this: "Pedestrian sudden movements. No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close that it is impossible for the driver to stop."


It's not necessarily the driver's fault if they hit a person in a crosswalk. It may be the pedestrians fault. If it's established that it's the driver's fault, sure the punishment should be commensurate with the injury to the pedestrian. But the blanket statement made by ECB is asinine.

Posted by pitchblende | November 16, 2006 7:27 PM
8

Anyone who has tried crossing 23rd ave on foot would agree with this idea.

Posted by dave | November 16, 2006 7:35 PM
9

Keep your heads.

Saying "take away their licenses" may feel great but it's the same attitude that has led us to the sort of asinine mandatory sentencing laws and massively overcrowded jails that this country has had to deal with for years. Do a rock of cocaine? 25 years! Do it twice? Life! Get convicted for a few small thefts? (ie, three strikes) Life without the possibility of parole. And so on.

The anti-smoking law down in CA that everyone has been ragging about is very much the same sort of mentality - NO. NO leeway. NO flexibility. That just does not work in the real world, does it?

(Talk to a few defense attorneys before you come up with these positions, ok?)

Posted by Sachi | November 16, 2006 7:40 PM
10

Taking away a driver's license def. serves to punish the person, but will it deter other drivers from HITTING pedestrians? Will anyone actually drive safer knowing that they will have their license taken away if they HIT someone? I doubt. Few people actually think that they will hit a person. THEY think they are being safe or they are just not thinking at all. If we want to protect pedestrians, I say that anyone entering a crosswalk with a pedestrian in it, pays a $600 fine. No one thinks that they might hit a person, but people are afraid of getting caught by the cops. And waiting until a pedestrian is hit is really too late.

Posted by Papayas | November 16, 2006 7:47 PM
11

and don't let them ride metro express lines either!

Posted by SEAN NELSON, EMERITUS | November 16, 2006 7:52 PM
12

TNBF: Do you propose the pedestrians wait for three lights instead?

Sachi: Killing someone and doing drugs are in totally different universes, and I agree that mandatory sentencing for the latter is way out of hand. Although the latter can lead to the former, prosecuting people for crimes they might commit is obviously wrong (unless you subscribe to neoconservatism). But, when a driver actually hits a pedestrian, the punishment should certainly match the offense. In reality, a good driver should be aware of every moving or potentially moving object in sight. This is not an exaggeration, from a bicyclist who has no other choice, and has yet to be in a serious accident despite close calls on probably close to half the times I ride. Someone not capable of this should not be driving in an urban environment. Public transit is available.

Posted by Noink | November 16, 2006 8:01 PM
13

Bring back Mark Sidran's car-impound ordinance? I don't think that will make pedestrians safer. Though increasing penalties for terrible driving is a sane and worthwhile cause. A lifetime ban from having a driver's license goes too far, though. That's almost equivalent to permanently taking away someone's American citizenship. Except for old people. There should be an age limit, after which you have to pass a driving test on an anual or semi-annual basis.

Posted by wf | November 16, 2006 8:04 PM
14


I absolutely think if there was any concequence to hitting (let alone killing), a pedestrian fewer people would drive the way they do. I don't care if a pedestrian has a latte, a burrito, or a turkey leg in each hand and is talking on three cell phones towing a toddler and a Labrador, they are about 150 pounds and the car or truck is about 3,000 pounds and is going faster than they are. Slow down.

People think that when they are driving that they are in some private room and that everything else is on TV. It's not. What's outside your car is real and human and is now no longer breathing.

Posted by Agreed | November 16, 2006 8:15 PM
15

i agree with you completely erica. can the city of seattle legally do this? if so, they need to make it happen if pedestrian safety is really their #1 priority.

Posted by jamie | November 16, 2006 8:20 PM
16

Noink, we were not talking about killing someone. A driver who kills someone in a sidewalk will need to face a potential vehicular homicide charge.

Erica said that a driver who hits a pedestrian should lose her or his license. Not kills, _hits_. Not injures even, _hits_ a pedestrian. Even if the pedestrian is at fault, apparently. Even if neither the pedestrian nor the driver is at fault (for example, a third person causes the accident.)

In short, one punishment does not fit all cases. People need to be able to choose the punishment that fits the crime, and need to be able to decide if a crime has even occurred.

(By the way, I ride a bicycle too. If you have that many near accidents, I suggest an Effective Cycling class through Cascade Bicycle Club or another organization.)

Posted by Sachi | November 16, 2006 8:26 PM
17

Noink-
I guess my point is that the more people and cars there are, more accidents will probably happen. I rarely drive downtown and suppose people who participate regularly in the rat/snail race are the ones to discuss this. Maybe all the single occupants who are mildly cherishing their alone luxury car time aren't bothered by the pace - gives them time to text message in slog opinions about how pedestrians are such shiny happy people.

Posted by the night before fryday | November 16, 2006 8:44 PM
18

Digest the crosswalk law. No turns until pedestrians are 2 lanes past your part of the roadway.

So on roads with 3 or fewer lanes, crosswalks must be empty before starting a turn. Same for all one-ways.

Here's a diagram.

Posted by Troy | November 16, 2006 8:50 PM
19

Non, that's what I wonder too. As recently as last month the "solution" to the problem was to remove crosswalks because some federal study supposedly says it's safer. I'll bet the city does something different now.

Posted by Ebenezer | November 16, 2006 8:51 PM
20

"So on roads with 3 or fewer lanes, crosswalks must be empty before starting a turn. Same for all one-ways."

Unfortunately if people actually followed this, traffic would come to a standstill in many parts of Seattle.

Posted by Bob Roberts | November 16, 2006 9:00 PM
21

Speaking of license revocation, it should be compulsory after someone's second DUI. Bad drunk, no license, grovel again in 10 or 15 years. Third DUI? Bunk with Uncle Sam for a few years.

Starting this year, someone's fifth DUI in 10 years is a felony. You know how often someone is driving drunk to be caught every other year?

Confidential to would-be and rookie legislators: this is an issue you could ride to office.

Posted by Troy | November 16, 2006 9:06 PM
22

Two months ago, a car struck a woman who was crossing Roy Street with her baby in a stroller. Fortunately, the woman was able to push the stroller out of the way before she was hit. It happened the middle of the day and the streets were dry. I wonder why didn't the media spring on this story. Was it because the woman and her baby were (fortunately) unharmed?

All intersections are potential crosswalks, so whether or not it's marked, pedestrians always have the right of way when crossing. At the very least, drivers should be cited for not yielding if they hit a pedestrian. Most people don't dart out into traffic; however, the speed limits in the city are low enough that drivers should be able to stop before hitting a person. Has anyone ever had to brake for an animal or a little kid who unexpectedly ran into the street? It's the same principle.

If drivers can't adhere to basic safety when operating their vehicles and, in turn, endanger the lives of others, then they are unfit drive and should have their license suspended.

Posted by Sadie | November 16, 2006 9:11 PM
23

20/Bob: You're right. I'd prefer real enforcement of more moderate laws, though as it is, cops don't even enforce dangerous violations.

When I can lean forward and touch a car as it turns (and I'm walking at average pace), something is wrong.

Posted by Troy | November 16, 2006 9:16 PM
24

I was hit by a car a few weeks ago. I was in plain view, in daylight, wearing red (!!!), and I still got hit. Today, I almost got hit again by a driver who was turning left and not bothering to look for pedestrians. I absolutely agree.

At a minimum, drivers shouldn't be able to foist all of the costs of their carelessness onto their insurance companies. If you're too clueless to watch for pedestrians, you should have to pay at least half of the claim out of your own pocket.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 16, 2006 9:35 PM
25

another thing: cell phones + driving = really really bad.

Posted by wf | November 16, 2006 9:39 PM
26

As someone who probably walks an average of 3 miles of city per day, I've had some close calls by many a shitty driver. So many driving here don't seem to realize that pedestrians might actually exist in this... CITY. The real problem now with Seattle is the L.A. style car-centricity and godawful fucking traffic.

Posted by olta | November 16, 2006 9:41 PM
27

Ah, but you see insurance companies gladly have these losses foisted on them as long as the penalties for drivers remain minimal, and the driving population continues its upward surge. More drivers, more insureds, more premiums. So they have to throw a few hundred grand at some poor schmuck mowed down by some cell-phone wielding douchebag running late to his bachelor party. No big deal for Allstate!

Posted by otla | November 16, 2006 9:52 PM
28

Off topic real quick-
Are the Stranger offices more like Al-Jazeera?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003432976_jazeera16.html

or "30 Rock"? It seems like a stupid show.

Posted by the night before fryday | November 16, 2006 10:00 PM
29

"Cell-phone wielding douchebag?" Were any of you driving in the pouring rain in the dark over the last few weeks? So hard to see - and all pedistrians are wearing BLACK. I was terrified I might hit someone.

Posted by watcher | November 16, 2006 10:27 PM
30

I walk as much as I drive, so I have a perspective from both sides of the wheel.

While there are a lot of bad drivers out there, there is also a sizable stupid pedestrian contingent.

In my neighborhood (north Beacon Hill) it's not at all uncommon to see people dressed all in black - many with children in tow - walking down the middle of the street in the dark of night. Late night on Rainier Avenue, people will just wander out into the street, directly into traffic.

When you are dealing with people this stupid and/or fucked up, it's not fair to expect that the driver lose his license.

As far as crosswalks go, some of them are very stupidly placed. There is one on Boren, just north of the intersection of Broadway, that is a death wish for anyone wanting to cross there. They just put it in, and I can't imagine what the traffic planners were thinking with, because there are intersections with walk signs on either side of it.

Posted by catalina vel-duray | November 16, 2006 10:49 PM
31


Since it was raining so hard, I hope you were going extremely slowly.

(Oh, and surprisingly, 30 Rock is a fun show. Not killer hilarious, but fun. Not like Studio 360, which is about as fun as watching the wall. Not The Wall, but a wall.)

Anyway, this person who killed Tatsuo was questioned and released. It was an accident, you see. Nothing. Of course, this person (and his young daughter, who was also in the car) will have to live with the fact that they killed someone.

Posted by yeah | November 16, 2006 10:56 PM
32

The crosswalk ordinance is kind of interesting. It says drivers shall yield to pedestrians USING a crosswalk, not pedestrians WAITING to use a crosswalk. So a pedestrian has to risk life and limb and actually step into the crosswalk before he or she gains the right of way.

Posted by dzienkowski | November 16, 2006 11:30 PM
33

As someone who has actually hit a pedestrian before, I think I bring a unique perspective to this discussion.

It was a dark morning and the minivan that this pedestrian came from was parked on the wrong side of the road, high-beams obstructing my view of anything beyond them. Being unable to see past the high-beams, I had about 3' to react when I noticed that there was a girl directly in front of me, dead center of my car. At the time, I was probably traveling at 30mph, and I cut the wheel as hard as I could, almost missing the pedestrian, unfortunately clipping her hip with my passenger side mirror.

I immediately pulled over, running toward this girl who was hunched over in pain, dialing 911 on my cell as I ran. Thankfully, she wasn't terribly injured. With my assistance, she was able to hobble to the sidewalk where we waited for the paramedics and, as it turned out, the police.

After relaying my story to the officer who arrived on the scene, I was notified that the girl would be receiving a jay walking ticket. As someone who works in the insurance industry, I explained to her that my no-fault medical coverage would pay her medical bills up to $10,000 before I continued on my not-so-normal morning commute to work.

An hour after arriving at the office, I filed a claim with my insurance...

OK...after this long-ass set up, here's where you all can call me a heartless asshole - I also successfully made a claim against her insurance to have my mirror paid for. It was her fault, after all. Why should I have to pay for her mistake?

Both pedestrians and drivers have responsibilities. In this case, the girl wasn't in a crosswalk, but even if she were, one cannot immediately place blame on the driver when these accidents occur. First of all, they're accidents (that's why they're not called on-purposes). Second, common sense dictates that pedestrians should be extra cautious, given that should a collision between a car and a person occur, the car is always gonna come out on top. Lastly, one cannot immediately place blame on the driver in these cases...reckless pedestrians don't lose their walking privileges when they cause the accident, why should the driver lose their driving privileges? Each case should be judged on its merits, with an appropriate punishment doled out to the appropriate, at-fault party.

Posted by Snoino | November 16, 2006 11:43 PM
34

I agree that there needs to be change to the system but really think its stupid to place an absolute sentence without consideration to 1) the drivers record and 2) the environment in which the accident ( and lets make it clear that yes it is an accident) happened. A driver has a lot to keep track of and even a great driver can fuck up every once in a while...

I think a good start to a solution would be to meeter the crosswalk lights at a different interval than the street lights. this is done in San Francisco with good effect. another idea would be to provide green arrows for left and right turns at all downtown intersections so that a driver does not need to keep track of on coming traffic, time left before red, and any possible pedestrian.

just some thoughts

Posted by on the fenseon the fence | November 16, 2006 11:53 PM
35

Pedestrians and drivers are both crazy in Seattle, from what I've seen. I've seen people run across streets when it is definitely not safe to cross, far from any crosswalks. Similarly, there are plenty of drivers out there that don't pay attention to a damn thing.

But to blame the pedestrians when we're talking about pedestrian safety in this context is complete bullshit. Just passing this blame off to the people on the business end of SUVs is not just totally irresponsible, it completely misses the point.

If you hit a pedestrian in a *MARKED crosswalk*, you should get your license revoked. Period. If you kill a pedestrian in a crosswalk, you should be thrown in jail. Period. Hell, if you don't give a pedestrian the right-of-way in a crosswalk you should get a $500 ticket. Mitigating circumstances can certainly play into it, as with any other crime. However, assuming that people should not have the right to walk in the city without fear of becoming a hood ornament on some asshole's pickup truck is just insane.

Yes, there is a massive problem with traffic engineering in Seattle. And yes, many pedestrians do need to watch out where their damn fool selves are going. (And should get severely ticketed for jaywalking, if they are endangering themselves and others.)

But the problem in Seattle, first and foremost, is the drivers that do not respect the people around them. I, for one, see nothing wrong with taking them off the road, permanently if necessary. Tighten and enforce the rules.

Posted by bma | November 17, 2006 4:01 AM
36

JESUS CHRIST. Accidents happen. If you get hit in a crosswalk and die. Well your time is up. If you run your car off the side of the road. Well your time is up.

Pedestrians are ASSHOLES and drivers are ASSHOLES. In any city you run into that. Pedestrians have the right away, but that does not give them the right to run across any ole street. Like every situation USE YOUR BRAIN to balance the cause and effect. If you start to cross a street and you notice a car that is going fast. Wait for the FUCKING CAR to pass. don't ASSUME the driver will see you and stop, cause when you assume..... you make an ASS out of you....

And when it is dark out and raining and you are walking and want to cross on PINE street for example. WEAR some FUCKING WHITE or LIGHTER clothes. Do you not remember the safety classes in school.

Posted by christ | November 17, 2006 6:05 AM
37

i walk over a mile to work each day, each way - mostly through the someday-deadly pike/pine area. about twice a week some total douchebag does a near-miss driveby type thing... you know - cut me off in the crosswalk so they can make their turn, all while speeding and yapping on their cell.
i am a walker. i love walking. i choose to walk when i could easily use my car or take the bus. i think it's good for people to walk, and i even argue to friends that walking makes good neighbors.
and i am absolutely fedup with these drivers. it's not all of them by any means - but it is *a lot* of them. too many. they are fucking dangerous.
i feel that drivers are so damn self-inlvoved and just barely able to pay attention to other 2000 lb beasts, that i have actually come to terms with the idea that i will eventually be hit by a car. it's just a matter of time.
perhaps us ped-types can start some sort of pedestrian vigilante group. i'm temped to act like the boys in grade school and start kicking cars that nearly run me down or entirely block the crosswalks.
seriously, what type of legislation, enforcement, or social movement would make our city safer for pedestrians?
driving IS a priviledge.

Posted by Stacy | November 17, 2006 7:24 AM
38

When the average pedestrian stops entering crosswalks while the red man is flashing, then they will get some respect. I try to buzz every one of these assholes that I can.

Posted by doink | November 17, 2006 7:29 AM
39

Hell, the intersection at Queen Anne Ave and Galer is just waiting for a tragic accident, considering the number of times I've had cars bearing down on me while I'm still in the crosswalk.

There are a thousand and one variables at play here but speaking as another person who walks their commute (two miles a day down the southern end of Lake Union), I agree: if drivers can't make out crosswalks, then to hell with them.

Posted by Chris B | November 17, 2006 8:14 AM
40

"When the average pedestrian stops entering crosswalks while the red man is flashing, then they will get some respect. I try to buzz every one of these assholes that I can."

Oh, and you've never run a yellow light?

Posted by Levislade | November 17, 2006 8:38 AM
41


#36 seems to think that getting killed by a car or killing someone else with your car is just some out-of-our-hands natural occurance that we just have to accept. Traffic isn't like a tornado or a tsunami--we have control over our own actions. We also shouldn't have a transportation system that easily allows for a certain number of people to be killed every day.

As for this crap about wearing white in the dark? Tatsuo was hit at 7:41am in the bright sunshine on a busy rush hour morning, like so many others. It wouldn't matter if he was wearing a lab coat or a reflective sticker on his chest. It was bright as day when he was hit while crossing in a marked crosswalk.

Most people wear dark clothing and I don't see people switching to bright orange anytime soon, so DRIVERS have to understand that and slow down, plan for traffic so they aren't harried, and limit their distractions in the car. Drivers have the power here. They're the ones in the heavy, fast-moving vehicle.

As the paper reported, most people survive an car crash under 25 mph and most people do not survive a crash over 25mph. How fast you are going matters.

Posted by Not natural | November 17, 2006 8:39 AM
42

Keep in mind that this is the time of year when the highest number of pedestrians are hit by cars. Drivers should be extra careful.

Pedestrians, too, must be extra careful. I think a lot of drivers will concur that a good number of pedestrians just start crossing, regardless of visibility conditions, assuming that it's all good once they're in the crosswalk.

I sure as shit don't just walk out there thinking that that act in and of itself is kryptonite to oncoming traffic. No one wants to hit a pedestrian. Think from the perspective that you might not be as visible as you assume, even though you do have the right of way.

Posted by Lloyd Clydesdale | November 17, 2006 8:43 AM
43

Uh-oh -- I'm not trying to 'blame the pedestrian' here. Just be careful driver, and be careful pedestrian. Takes two to tango. Most dangerous time of year.

Posted by Lloyd Clydesdale | November 17, 2006 8:57 AM
44

I'd love to see a system where concrete barriers quickly rise from under the street when pedestrians are crossing. Don't want to stop? Meet Mr. Reinforced Concrete.

Posted by Robert | November 17, 2006 8:58 AM
45

23rd is a fucking death trap. Drivers think it's an express way but in actuality it cuts through a packed residental area.

Posted by ahura | November 17, 2006 9:18 AM
46

More severe consequences aren't needed, drivers just need to pay more attention. Living in the city (especially downtown or on Cap Hill), I think a lot of us learn to always be on the lookout for someone crossing or getting ready to cross the street at an uncontrolled intersection. Pike and Pine are good examples, and on any given night when people get a few drinks in them and start to bar-hop they will enter a crosswalk without looking (and for the most part they shouldn't have to look, IMHO). I don't see why urban drivers have a hard time with this, other than maybe they're from the burbs. Any of us who've lived here and driven here for more than a month should know that you always need to be watching for peds (and bikers).

I like the system they have at a Seattle U crosswalk around 12th and Cherry. When a ped presses a button (or maybe a motion sensor is tripped, I dunno) yellow LEDs embedded in the road immediately start to flash and the ped can walk right away. It definitely gets the attention of drivers.

Posted by Investigatory Journalist | November 17, 2006 9:42 AM
47

Are drivers not pedestrians too? One day if you are driving, you may just need to eventually park that dang beast, get out of it, and perhaps walk across a street from time to time, no? How can people be so darned insensitive? PS I hope 38 gets “buzzed” after driving somewhere, parking his stupid car, then crossing a street with walk sign in broad daylight wearing a fuchsia windbreaker in a clearly marked crosswalk! The walk man changes to the red hand from my experience in an average crosswalk in about 7-10 seconds, so there is a good possibility that unless I sprint, I may still be in the crosswalk when the red hand starts flashing. This does not give a driver the right to buzz me for Christ sakes! Please try and be a little more sensitive!

Posted by mjh | November 17, 2006 10:00 AM
48

Here's a dangerous intersection for Pedestrians: 1st Avenue South and Atlantic/Edgar Martinez Drive, especially on the east sidewalk.

The queue of cars waiting to turn left on to Edgar Martinez Drive is long, as that has a direct path to I-90 and I-5. There's only one left turn lane and the line backs up all the way to Royal Brougham, clogging up the left lane as the right lane remains mostly empty.

ANYWAY, when they get a left-turn green, they go and go, and when it turns red, about 5-6 cars run the red light, often as late as 5-6 seconds after the red has hit. I wait for them to finish, and then get honked at by the cars in the right turn lane on the opposite side when I jump in front of them to cross, because if I don't, then they cut in right behind the red-runners, and you're literally standing there until the walk and traffic signals turn red, and you're back to square one.

I've already contacted SPD about the problem, but it's a serious problem intersection and I'm sure, if nothing's done, that someone's going to get hit and/or killed there. I just hope it isn't me.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 10:01 AM
49

Two more things:

- The pedestrian-hater trolling comments don't surprise me.

- I think part of the reason drivers are so ruthless in cutting in front of, buzzing or riding behind pedestrians is because of the cramped, stressful traffic situation in Seattle. Yes, it's easy to say, "Well then, stop driving and use transit," but we know how much easier that is said than done. So these drivers spend so much time navigating tightly packed roads, undoubtedly encountering numerous asshole drivers and whatnot, before they reach these intersections, and suddenly they're running lights and ignoring pedestrians or trying to shove through crosswalks out of frustration.

If we had an easy answer to this problem, we would have implemented it long ago.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 10:08 AM
50

Woonerfs, people. Woonerfs.

http://dir.salon.com/story/tech/feature/2004/05/20/traffic_design/index.html

Remove the signalling, pave the street for slow travel and use doubt and not signs to make drivers be careful.

Posted by Steve | November 17, 2006 10:22 AM
51

50. Eli Sanders once ended an article by openly fantasizing about Seattle streets being like this.

Thing is, as friends who have lived in Italy, the Philippines, Mexico, Spain and other locales where this is practiced... drivers still drive dangerously, and crossing streets is even more dangerous in less populated neighborhoods and blocks, given that drivers lean on the gas, don't look and don't care. The accidents are also far more gruesome.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 10:26 AM
52

that is, as friends have told me...

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 10:29 AM
53

something to note about that article: China probably has strict laws concerning traffic violations. This is a nation that executes women for wearing makeup. so maybe the lack of traffic accidents is not because of the intersections but because the penalties for violations are very severe.

Posted by Fremontel | November 17, 2006 10:31 AM
54

Hey, I'm generally a pedestrian and am very pro-walking, but can I just put in a plea for pedestrians to not just dart into the road, especially on dark and rainy nights? I have to drive home on 12th on Cap Hill every night and I've seen people literally jump out from blind curves and run into the road. I came very close to hitting this guy who did this.
Drivers need to be more careful, but pedestrians need to be cautious as well. It's not always cut and dry.

Posted by Scared driver | November 17, 2006 10:44 AM
55

Wow.

The mortality rate in that office is really high.

David Della dies two days ago, and then Tatsuo Nakata gets run down?

(Does Della know that he is dead? Because I think he is still acting like he is alive… you know, up, walking around, pushing government regulation deeper into our lives.)

Posted by you_gotta_be_kidding_me | November 17, 2006 10:44 AM
56

Re #47: It's okay if you're still *in* the crosswalk when the red hand starts flashing. It's not okay to *enter* the crosswalk when the hand is flashing. The hand is there to ensure that drivers will have a chance to make legal turns. If pedestrians disregard the law and just barge across regardless of what cycle the light is in, drivers get frustrated and start having to break the law just to get anywhere.

Drivers need to give more respect to pedestrians, it's true, but pedestrians also need to stop acting like the rules don't apply to them. Bicyclists, as well. There are only two times when I've come close to hitting someone -- when a pedestrian was illegally crossing against the light, and when a bicyclist ran a stop sign (from the sidewalk, no less) on a blind intersection. If you want drivers to see you and stop for you, you need to act in a predictable way and be where they expect you to be.

Now, if a pedestrian is following the rules and they still get hit -- by all means, throw the book at the driver. But I'm tired of this attitude that bicyclists and pedestrians can act in any erratic, dangerous way they want, and it's still the driver's fault if they get clipped.

Posted by Orv | November 17, 2006 10:45 AM
57

Should drivers yeild to pedestrians? Of course. In a car you have the advantage. But taking away lisences as a blanket punishment is the kind of mentality that makes people despise liberals, because it is ridiculous. Pedestrians, while having the right of way, need to be aware of what they're doing. I've been dutifly waiting for people to cross, waiting to make a turn, then in the process of turning, when a person ran into the middle of the street (long after the walk sign has disapeared) and barely missed hitting them (because I, inlike them, were paying attention). If I were to hit them, should I lose my lisence?

I guess my point is that it is not always the driver's fault and statements like this show ignorance of that fact.

Posted by Dianna | November 17, 2006 10:49 AM
58

re: Erica's idea... take their license away, but for one year. Hitting a pedestrian is a huge fuck-up but it shouldn't be a death sentence to your right to drive. Now, if you get your license back and you do it again, then yeah, permanent revocation.

Our traffic law enforcement currently has no teeth at all. Cops will watch drivers run lights, cut off drivers and speed, and often do nothing. It's too easy for citizens to get off the hook for brekaing traffic laws, paying a ticket or serving a sentence. Just look in the phone book and on discussion boards for help on how to beat traffic tickets. What a joke the law has become.

Maybe ENFORCING the laws for a change, with very little tolerance would go a long way to reducing traffic crime and accidents. If people are facing hardship and can't pay a ticket, that's fine: have them pay in installments, and revoke their licenses until they've paid it off.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 10:54 AM
59


Agreed. However, the white crosswalk symbol needs to stay up longer.

Posted by agreed | November 17, 2006 10:58 AM
60


Agreed. However, the white crosswalk symbol needs to stay up longer.

Posted by agreed | November 17, 2006 10:58 AM
61

I don't understand why the traffic engineers in more areas don't do a "Walk All Ways" pedestrian signal, with no turns of any kind permitted while the pedestrian signal is green. That really cuts down on the pedestrians darting out in front of someone who's been trying to make a turn for the last five minutes.

I also wish Seattle had more pedestrian overpasses and tunnels in the busiest areas. I found out, some years ago, that it's possible to go all the way from 7th Avenue to 3rd without ever going outside by going through pedestrian concourses under and through downtown buildings, and I've also found that to be much faster than going out in the street and waiting for walk lights. I also seem to remember, when I was a kid, that there were several more second-story pedestrian overpasses between downtown buildings - what happened to all of those? They were great.

I'm cautious as hell when I'm walking; I expect all drivers to either be actively trying to kill me, or to be blind to my existence. If you always walk this way, you're much less likely to get killed by the merely careless. It's the complete lunatics going 80 in a residential area that'll still mow you down.

When driving, I've discovered that my weakest point is making a right turn after looking left, without realizing that a pedestrian's stepped out into the sidewalk while I was checking for oncoming traffic on my left. So now, after almost clipping someone a few months ago, I make a point of also looking right immediately before I start the turn. But it helps if pedestrians assume that drivers are all either maniacs or morons, and walk with great caution.

Posted by Geni | November 17, 2006 11:01 AM
62

In December, the Council passed legislation making negligent drivers, proven to be the cause of serious injury or death, guilty of an assault. Note: *criminally* negligent drivers would be prosecuted by King County. We'll have to check to see how many folks have been prosecuted under this law.

Previously these types of infractions only carried a fine of $101. Now, when someone is seriously harmed city prosecutors can pursue a punishment of up to a year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Posted by LH | November 17, 2006 11:02 AM
63

Re #61: The "all walk" idea has come up several times in the P-I's "Getting There" column. The answer is always the same -- signals with "all walk" phases have been found to delay both drivers *and* pedestrians more than standard signals. Apparently even places that have already implemented them are starting to take them out.

Posted by Orv | November 17, 2006 11:05 AM
64

Seattle has two 'All Walk' intersections that I know of: 1st Avenue in front of Pike Place Market, and Bridge Way at the onramp to Aurora near Fremont.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 11:11 AM
65

There's an all walk at the intersection of Beacon Avenue and 15th Avenue South

Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay | November 17, 2006 11:27 AM
66

There is also one in West Seattle in the Junction.

A good story that was told to me - one early Saturday morning, my friend was hanging around outside at the intersection and the All Ways Walk light came on. A women proceeded to walk diagonally thru the intersection. A cop waiting at the light gets on his speaker and says to the woman something to the effect of "Should you be walking thru like that?" and the woman yells out "It's All Ways Walk - welcome to the neighborhood!". The cop said nothing.

hilarious.


ps- boo to pedestrians that just start into the crosswalk without looking. you people are dangerous.

Posted by rubyred | November 17, 2006 11:48 AM
67

As long as we're talking about walk light issues, here's one thing I've never understood: At several intersections I frequent, if you press the walk button the walk sign lights up during a red light, and if you don't it doesn't. As far as I can tell there is no other difference between what happens if you press it or don't - i.e., the cars that would be crossing the crosswalk still have a red light, etc.

So what happens is people show up at the intersection during a red light, or they forget to press a button, and it says "don't walk," but there's no actual reason not to walk (except that you don't know how long you have). Why not just get rid of the button and have a walk light every time the light is red? It would be the same difference to the drivers, no?

Sorry, this has been bothering me for a while; my wife says it wouldn't be that way if there weren't a reason, planners consider all these things very carefully, etc., but I just don't get it.

Posted by Levislade | November 17, 2006 11:51 AM
68

66. That story's hilarious.

Also, though I haven't mentioned it, I absolutely agree that pedestrians need to be responsible and look all ways, even when you have the right of way or a walk signal. Clearly, not all drivers respect the rights of way or traffic signals.

You may be right, but that's not gonna keep you out of the hospital if you get hit.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 11:53 AM
69

re: 67

Lights will be shorter if there isn't a walk sign. If you don't push it, the light will go faster than if you do.
By the way folks, you only need to push the button once. And continuing to push it doesn't make it go any faster. Know your neighborhood, realize that there will be a left turn signal before you get your walk signal. Don't looked put out by the left turners.

Posted by rubyred | November 17, 2006 12:10 PM
70

Thanks, Rubyred. I hate when I join a crowd at the intersection, the lights change, and I realize no one pressed the frickin' button! And yeah, people who repeatedly smack the button really hard drive me nuts.

Posted by Levislade | November 17, 2006 12:18 PM
71

I suspect cops don't enforce the traffic code because there aren't enough of them. They're constantly responding to 911 calls. Maybe the budget providing for 30 new officers will help.

Posted by dzienkowski | November 17, 2006 12:45 PM
72

66, Ruby -- Pps: Boo to aggro-pedestrians indignantly parading out into crosswalks when you're right in on 'em, looking right at you in their disgusted NWPA glory, making you jam on the brakes. Is this not dangerous, too? Am I speeding? No. Not paying attention? No. A pedestrian can give up a second of waiting to let a close-in vehicle flush through. The On-Purpose Slow-Walkers are out there too, playing the 'fuck you' game. There's that pedestrian element in Seattle that loves to fuck up timing and flow -- the poetry of efficient circulation in the city.

These irresponsible pedestrians should have their right to cross streets taken away by the cops. Lack of pedestrian common sense and courtesy sould be punishable by a fine.

Posted by Lloyd Clydesdale | November 17, 2006 12:47 PM
73

I see many of them drive right by blatant traffic violations, run red lights and such. And no, the lights aren't on.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 12:48 PM
74

I have to add this: just now, on my way to pick up lunch, I was nearly hit on 3rd and Lander by a driver who SPED UP AND TRIED TO HIT ME AND ANOTHER PEDESTRIAN.

He turned left and we were crossing on 3rd (having walked around an SUV who stuck their nose out too far) and when he made eye contact with us (with plenty of room and time to slow down), instead of slowing down he SPED UP. I had to practically leap out of his way.

Of course, he's such a man he just sped off.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 12:50 PM
75

Gomez, there's THAT driver element, too. I'm not trying to defend all drivers as having common sense and courtesy. I'm willing to bet that driver is a dickhead to cyclists and other drivers, too. Good, though, that you were paying attention. A la-la-la-la-la-la pedestrian would've been on dude's grill.

Posted by Lloyd Clydesdale | November 17, 2006 1:01 PM
76

Oh, Lloyd, I don't deny that their are selfish, angry elements on both sides at all. I see your points, and valid points from both sides of this issue, which makes it such a difficult issue to give a straight answer to.

But I figured, having experienced that topical little near-miss just now, that I'd throw it in here.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 1:18 PM
77

A pedestrian can give up a second of waiting to let a close-in vehicle flush through.

Yeah, bullshit. Whenever a pedestrian stops to let one car through, it's like a fucking clown car. All the cars that were waiting to turn start barrelling through. At that point, the pedestrian has to jump into traffic in order to get across the street.

There also are many drivers who will deliberately cut off pedestrians in order to turn. The next car can't see the pedestrian and almost hits him or her. I wish I had a nickel for everytime that's happened to me. Fuck cars, just fuck 'em.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 17, 2006 1:34 PM
78

Yeah, suspend their driver's license forever. But the pedestrian also needs to be punished for putting themselves into obviously dangerous situations. If the pedestrian jaywalked, ban them from using crosswalks for 5 years. We bemoan the drivers on their cell phones, but pedestrians bee-bopping to the tunes on their iPods, oblivious to traffic, bear much responsibility as well.

Posted by him | November 17, 2006 1:40 PM
79

77. Dead-on correct. This approach does not work because if you let one car in, everyone else behind cuts in. It fails.

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 1:46 PM
80

Fuck cars, just fuck 'em.

Typical Seattle attitude. There's this idea that people who are in cars are inherently evil, because to a real Seattle resident cars are horribly un-PC. "Tear out the viaduct! Block the crosswalks! Screw 'em all!" seems to be the rallying cry.

Posted by Orv | November 17, 2006 2:24 PM
81

An ex-coworker described the fundamental difference well. A walker who wants to get somewhere faster has room for improvement: bike, car, taxi, bus (sometimes), etc.

But when a driver wants to arrive faster, the only outlet for urgency is cutting corners. Speeding, running yellows, or trying to motivate pedestrians to cross faster.

Posted by Troy | November 17, 2006 2:31 PM
82

re 72, Clyde - right on sister.

the thing to remember is, you can lose 5 minutes. You will probably wait less, but in the grand scheme of things your time isn't any more or less important than someone else's time. Unless you have a siren on the roof of your car.

so, everyone, lets have a little patience, whether you drive or walk or bike.

Posted by rubyred | November 17, 2006 2:34 PM
83

Cells phones - should be banned while driving a car (not in park).

Posted by Will in Seattle | November 17, 2006 2:34 PM
84

Given debate's cooled on the subject, I want to go back and discuss an offbase comment.

9. Sachi... possession of drugs or smoking of cigarettes is not nearly equal in scope to hitting someone with your car. Your examples aren't valid.

ECB went a little over in suggesting an instant lifetime revokation of license (we have to keep in mind that, working a lot in City Hall, she might have known Tatsuo personally so she's likely emotional about this) but there's a point: there needs to be more severe punishment for hitting pedestrians, and for failing to respect rights of way in general, or this is just gonna keep happening. Are you and I next?

Again, a one-year revokation, with a 5 year revokation on 2nd offenses and a lifetime revokation the 3rd time would likely do the trick... as would actually enforcing traffic laws and mandating full penance for traffic tickets (no more letting people off easy, which has become so rampant that the traffic penal process is now a joke).

Posted by Gomez | November 17, 2006 4:01 PM
85

A small, but important correction to the original report - "the crosswalk was marked with a flashing overhead signal" - the crosswalk signs are large, yellow with black lettering, but are NOT lit.

Posted by mystic | November 18, 2006 3:33 PM
86

Those "all walk" signals are all over downtown SF - a good enough idea, and help during rush hour in some intersections, but yeah, they don't always work that great when drivers take the free right (of left, depending on 1-way) on red anyhow.

NYC = no right on red. It's that way for a reason. It's not just crazy talk.

Does Seattle have any intesection cameras (for light runners) yet?

P.S. Yes, some pedestrians are stupid, but really, is sitting inside your car really that hard?

Posted by Dougsf | November 19, 2006 6:45 PM
87

I must add that making No Right On Red a citywide law, if not a statewide law, would help matters for pedestrians greatly.

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I don't live in Seattle or close - just stumbled into this discussion. But in my local area, I'm frequently both a driver and walker. As a walker, I wait for the cross signal, and then make sure that the drivers have registered their stops before I step into the street. As the more easily injured party (not being wrapped in tin), I've gotta be more careful about where I'm going - it's simple self-preservation. It's just a fact of life. As a driver, I get really irritated when people try to run across the road between crosswalks or lights. Last night, my friend hit a pedestrian who walked right in front of her car, in the dark, on a state highway. Luckily, he lived. But the accident was HIS fault. Stupid is stupid - driving or walking.

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