"...every sane person in the State of Israel, possibly the entire Jewish world, is shocked, because the significance is... the destruction of the family unit in the State of Israel"

Because now EVERYONE is going to want to be gay because being gay is HOT! Who the hell would be straight when they can be gay? And gay folks don't have families which is why gay couples want to get married. Ah the logic.

On a less sarcastic note, it is interesting given all the problems with the gay pride parade. It must be wonderful to live in a country where the judiciary is in step with the progressive public (and the concept of equality and justice).

Papayas, you have no idea, at least as far as the legal framework goes. The social framework isn't as advanced as in progressive, American, urban enclaves, but I'll give you an illustration of one area where Israel is light years ahead of us:

Yediot Ahronot, the Israeli equivalent of the New York Post, published a headline that said, "Soldiers Disciplined for Gay Orgy on Base," detailing how officers came across conscripts a gay orgy and everyone got busted.

Yael Dayan called for an investigation of the officers, as sodomy was decriminalized in the 80s, and gays can openly serve in the Israeli military. If the privacy of soldiers had been compromised and soldiers had been disciplined, it would have been a serious violation of Israeli law.

The investigation brought to light a number of facts. The first was that it wasn't a gay orgy. Two pairs of soldiers had performed oral sex on each other in public, and in full view of many other soldiers. And the soldiers involved weren't actually gay. The public oral sex was a result of a frat boy dare. And the discipline was especially harsh because by making out gay sex to be a big joke, something to be horribly humiliated about in a dare, these soldiers might have hurt the feelings of the actually gay soldiers on base.

Try imagining that at Fort Lewis.

Again, I remind you that under NAFTA, you just have to get married in Canada and move to the US.

Treaties are like that. They override state and federal laws.

Including DOMA.

Gitai,

Wow, that sounds really, uh, hot!

I’m no authority on heterosexuality (I really don’t know anything about it other than rumors and gossip), but I can’t imagine four straight GI guys sucking each other off in front of a crowd on a dare. Do you have a link? And video? (!)

Will in Seattle,

It’s very expensive and time consuming to move to Canada even if one is so inclined. We shouldn’t have to move to a foreign country to obtain the benefits of marriage, and the idea that a treaty might protect us is a shaky legal theory at best. Bigots can always find a way to justify and legalize discrimination, just ask Barbara Madsen.

As Bill Maher said a few weeks ago “It’s time for the US to stop telling everyone we’re the greatest country in the world and start acting like it.”

Hey - are we allowed to start talking about same sex marriage yet?

I know we had to be quiet and meek during the election campaign (from March - November), but its ok now, right?

...or maybe it's too early. Maybe we need to wait longer to demand anything from the Democrats. Thats probably it. Yeah they'll get around to us later...I'm sure of it. We didn't make them look bad and consequently they won the election, so when they are ready, the Dems will do the right thing.

They probably shouldn't criticize Mitt Romney too much right now though. That might look bad.

Hey, um Will at 3... that's not the way I understand it... and I wish it were that easy.

Yep. Its a great democracy they have over in Israel, unless youre a second class Palestinian. Building happy settlemets on land, that of course was theirs cuz the old testament says so. Or maybe not.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061121/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

It is, of course, a great thing that their society is open, and have open and progressive policies that benefit all Israelis, but perhaps they can treat their neighbors the same way.

The neighbors who keep blowing them up, and then then watch endless hours of television celebrating those "martyrdoms", and learn how to blow people up and why it's such a terrific thing to do in school? Those neighbors?

The Palestinians wouldn't be in such straits if they didn't literally worship death so much.

So it justifies in your mind the miserable, and some might argue genocidal conditions of the occupation? Perhaps some of those conditions create the bombers. You argue that this is caused by Palestinian's worship of death. Aside from being simplisticly silly, it is also untrue, It is a fact that the longer the occupation and the brutal conditions have lasted, the more desperate the situation becomes, and the more bombers and fanatics a hopeless situation creates. See the shit were doing in Iraq. You can simplify it all you want, it is after all the conservative thing to do, but it is a lot more complex than what you want to see.

I love how people make words sound less offensive. Land grabs become settlemets and occupiers become settlers. Same in Iraq, Mercenaries become " civilian contractors".

No one says that Israel shoulnt defend themselves. No one says that terrorism against the Israeli state is ever justified. But blind support for everything Israel does is just plain stupid. But if you think the genocidal policies being carried out in the West Bank are nothing, than I guess there is not much to debate.

But read the article, its simple. They stole the land and then claimed it was unclaimed.

They demolish homes, shoot people on sight, including women and children and they allow settlers to roam armed shooting at unarmed Palestinians.

Now who's being simplistic? Israel has on more than one occasion made good faith offers of territory for Palestine. Palestine has always rejected them, because Palestine has always rejected Israel's right to exist. Israel has absorbed zillions of Jewish refugees violently expelled from EVERY Islamic country in the Middle East, while no Islamic country has ever willingly absorbed ANY Palestinians, or allowed them to acquire citizenship, or move out of refugee camps into proper housing. The primary oppressors of Palestinians are Palestinians and other Arabs. Israel has been militarily attacked over and over, and continually bombed by psychos with suicide belts. Yes, that means their security arrangements are unpleasant. The only other option is what every single Arab wants in his or her heart, which is for all the Jews to just go away, like the Jews in Baghdad and Cairo and Amman and Damascus did -- when they killed them.

The only country in the Middle East seriously debating the Palestinian situation is Israel. They are the only country in the region that has a right and a left and a middle: every Arab country has only one idea where Jews are concerned, all Jews: kill them, drive them out. The serious ideas for Palestinian statehood are coming from Israel, not Palestine. You can have a debate with Israelis, but not with Palestinians.

The part about endless television programs celebrating the martyrhood of suicide bombers isn't "simplisticly silly" or untrue; it's real. That's what they watch. That's what their textbooks teach.

The fact that the billions of aid that Palestine recieves immediately disappears into the pockets of the criminals who run the territory, first Ararat, now the brainless remnants of Hamas and Fatah, is not Israel's fault.

And Israel didn't steal their land, they bought it. The tag-end of the Ottoman Empire couldn't manage their own affairs back then, either.

Will, I just know what came out of an official Israeli government inquiry into the incident. And if you don't know any straight GI types who don't go for hot man on man action, you haven't met many Marines. They'll do anything after a six pack.

FNARF- It appears that your engaging in whataberry, in other words, instead of debating the response becomes nothing more than, what about this and what about the Arab governments and blah blah..

To be fair, I will say that you have some very valid points, but you fail to address the occupation, the brutality of the Israeli policy and the effect this has on the population.

Yes, a lot of the Arab world uses the Palestinian’s suffering as a way to rally fanatics to their cause, but at the same time they treat Palestinians like dirt in their own countries. One of the only countries that welcomed them and offered them some sort of humane treatment is Iraq and they fled there when the first bombs started falling. I wholeheartedly agree with you that a workable deal was offered to Arafat, it wasn’t perfect and it did not allow for the return of the expelled Palestinians from Jordan, but considering that they were a defeated people, it was the best that they were going to get. It is simplistic to say that it was due to corruption.

But the supremacist view of you and your fellow conservatives that the Arabs are to blame and thus they must be punished through a brutal occupation that by the way created the conditions that gave birth to fanatics and lunatics and religious fanatics. Funny enough homophobic religious freaks here agree with you wholeheartedly when it comes to Israel’s policy towards the Palestinians. It is not necessary for you conservatives to agree, but at least you should try to understand the devastating results of an occupation.

Iraq, an occupation which you and your fellow conservatives (like Sullivan) now oppose offers you a clear view of what happens to a humiliated population. And again, I am in no way saying that it justifies suicide bombing, but I’m sure you know that I’m not saying that.

To turn a blind eye to Israel’s brutality and supremacist attitudes towards the Palestinians is to continue to contribute what surely one day will be world war 3.

Conservatives might not be aware but there are plenty of moderate Arabs in the Arab world, and most are pushed against the wall by brutal occupations and corrupt Arab governments that are supported by our country. Iran was a great example of this, and there was hope to bring the moderates to power there, but again the conservative view that Arabs or Persians in Iran’s case are blood thirsty freaks contributes to the brutal situation that we find ourselves.

Finally the, they bought it argument is silly. Read today's NYTIMES. Most settlements are on Arab owned land. That’s the equivalent of saying we bought the land from the Native

Seme, you too are being simplistic, particularly when you commit sins of omission on why some of the atrocities you claim occur, as well as accusing FNARF of being a conservative when he admits no such thing. Believe it or not, there are plenty of liberals who do believe in the state of Israel and actually do want peace in the region. Not that it will happen anytime soon.

But I wanted to point out something within Israel that is funny yet pathetic. If you read the story, you'll see that only gay couples married outside the country will have their marriages recognized. And for the foreseeable future anyway, there will be no gay weddings in the country? Why? For the same reason that there will be no secular or non-Orthodox hetero Jewish weddings in the country. The country's chief rabbis have a lock on the marriage biz in the country, and they fight tooth and nail to keep control of it. Ceremonies performed in the country by someone besides an Orthodox rabbi (any other rabbis might as well be uncircumcised heathens - particularly the female rabbis, who are at least uncircumcised...) are not recognized by the state, which is why you find a lot of secular Israelis traveling to Cyprus, Greece, Europe, anywhere besides their own country really, to tie the knot.

Smelley- When did I say I did not beleive in the state of Israel or that Israel does not have a right to exist? I am very clear about that. What I dont beleive is in their right to commit crimes against civilians and a policy that condones punishment. Sins? What is this mass?

Regarding Fnarf v. Seme, why is it so difficult for both sides of this debate to admit that there is no excuse for suicide bombings AND there is no excuse for the brutal treatment of Palestinians?
I work at a human rights organization that does a lot of work with Palestine, and the conditions that people are forced to live in in the West Bank are absolutely inhumane. On the other hand, when a bomber blows up a bus full of Jewish civilians, thousands of Palestinians celebrate in the streets. That's absolutely inhuman.
The reason this debate never moves forward is that everyone is caught up in the same 'well, the other side is worse' bullshit that Democrats and Republicans are always trotting out.
Can't we just say that both sides are assholes?

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