Comments on Bogus Viaduct Study

You got that right. This is the most bogus of bogus studies. They even farcically ask for a bored tunnel - which if you know anything about the plans for Greg's Underwater Tunnel - that's a cut and cover tunnel with vacuous spaces in a factor 7-9 earthquake zone subject to stochastic mud flows.

So, not only is it bogus, what they're asking for would be TWICE as expensive as Greg's Underwater Tunnel (which is still insane).

Will -- Can you define "stochastic mud flows" for me. Also, what is a "factor 7-9 earthquake zone?" I've been a landslide and earthquake hazard analyst for over 10 years; never heard the terms before.

Just curious.

oh snap!

Well, even with shuttles and such, you're still blocking off the Waterfront from the city (which, admittedly, is going to happen no matter what).

Also, fewer people will be able to drive down and park before cruises and stays at hotels. They will have to shuttle over.

With the spoiled pettiness of the upper crust ('waaah, I don't wanna take a shuttle, I wanna drive!'), yes, this actually will result in a significant loss of business.

But I didn't need a study to figure that out.

Oh, and fuck Holland America.

Well, when they shut Third Avenue for a couple of years building the bus tunnel, they DID very nearly destroy downtown. And this is going to be a lot worse. Think of the ferry system. I also think that ignoring the city's plan is an appropriate response; the city doesn't know how to plan for large events like this. I'm sure the vanpools are going to be lovely, but they won't have any impact on anything at all.

So Erica, SDOT is untrustworthy for wanting a tunnel, WSDOT is untrustworthy for wanting to maintain capacity…..but when it comes to traffic management and economic impact, then they are suddenly reliable authorities?

Speaking of credulous reporting.

Try to take a trip up the 3rd Avenue busway during the p.m. rush hour. It regularly takes between 30 and 45 minutes to get from Marion to Pine. Why? Because SDOT has blocked two lanes on Stewart between 5th and 6th, blocking all the regional buses that turn right from 3rd, which blocks all the other northbound buses on 3rd.

And these clowns are supposed to manage the traffic when the Viaduct is down? Where incidentally are these wonderful new buses and vanpools going to go, when the bus street is already a parking lot?

Don't say 4th Avenue, because that’s a rush hour parking lot as well.

Erica's out of the office right now, so I took the liberty of pointing out that the "Cascadia Center" is the brainchild of none other than the Discovery Institute.

But if I'm stuck on the west seattle bridge waiting to get on I-5 because the viaduct is shut down, how will van pools and more buses help if were all stuck in that same traffic????

With Debbie Downer Analysms like these
its a wonder this city built anything.
This was nothing but a small port back in the 1800s you all know. Country ass wagons hauling shit from the peir was about all they could dream of. Alas something happened between the 1900s to the 60s but we forgot. New york managed through the Depression to build , and build and build despite doomsayers and the people their are as resilient as ever with new advances in the future comming up for their city.
But alas,Tacoma most likely will surpass Seattle as a Megalopis with super transport trains if this Debbie downer crap keeps up. Think of the future for the kids commutes and businesses before you think of your own. Whos going to wanna work and live under that crappy old viaduct anyway blocking the view of the harbor . Advance Seattle Advance will ya.....

Tacoma's coming for you, Seattle. We have trains and we know how to use them.

Can anyone explain to me the agenda behind that study? It almost sounded like they were against any and all alternatives.

Tacoma?! pffft!

Neo-Realist: so when exiting the W. Seattle bridge, would you rather be stuck behind a bus and van, or behind 70 single-occupant cars? More buses don't magically cure the traffic, but they'll definitely help.

I'm still waiting to see the answer to Smiles' question.

Fnarf quoted for truth:

And this is going to be a lot worse. Think of the ferry system. I also think that ignoring the city's plan is an appropriate response; the city doesn't know how to plan for large events like this. I'm sure the vanpools are going to be lovely, but they won't have any impact on anything at all.

One trump card that the state will cite for forcing this on the city will be the ferries. Given the existing plan for the tunnel construction, it would render the downtown ferries unusable.

The state is not gonna let Seattle jack the entire system up just for a lamebrain tunnel.

Damn me forgetting important context!

The first statement after the quote should read: One trump card that the state will cite to force THEIR solution on the city, which likely will be a straight rebuild.

Unfortunately, the surface option would also block operations for the ferry system, as if they were going to build their little boulevard, it is presumed they would have to tear up that stretch of Alaskan Way to do it.

Another Tacoman who'll be enjoying our delicious and free light rail tonight on my commute home. And thank god I work in Pioneer Square and not Belltown.

Stochastic mud flows - well, if you even knew what a lahar was, I might talk with you on what superheated mud flows from Rainier DO every 500 years or so, and how the actual soils around here are covered - especially in the region where the docks are - with the remnants of it.

The stuff flows OVER the water, with nice giant rocks and boulders (go to Kent and look around, you'll see bunches) in it.

Now, do you want me to teach you about tunnels, bridges, viaducts, and how to pick your frickin nose?

Now that Dan Evans has spoken in favor of the tunnel, it's a sure thing. Evans doesn't throw his weight around idly.

Who is this Dan Evans and how is his will powerful enough to coerce the state to fuck its own ferry system?

If we argue about it long enough, we can build a 12 lane tunnel with our federal disaster relief money.

Yeah, well former Gov. Dan Evans hasn't seen a downtown Chamber of Commerce boondoggle in the last 20 years that he wouldn't endorse. Talk about a R.I.N.O...

To get back on topic, the specifics of the study are certainly suspect given who funded it (though I have no doubt there will be considerable economic impacts to many businesses, and not just on the waterfront), but I'm with the posters above regarding the wishful thinking that underlies AWV "mitigation"

And for those of you who weren't here during the 80's, Bus Tunnel construction really did a huge amount damage to 3rd Avenue and other downtown businesses - and it took literally years (and massive City subsidies) for the area to recover.

Now, would you like me to teach you about the Richter Factor scale for earthquakes, Mr. I Am A Fake Scientist Who Supports Greg's Underwater Tunnel? And that a factor 9 earthquake is 100 times more powerful than a factor 9 one? And that we live in a zone where the likelihood of a factor 7 to 9 earthquake occuring in the next 20 years is very high, as is the likelihood that Mt. Rainier - an active volcano - will have a stochastic mud flow (superheated lahar) in the next 100 years.

It could be today. But we build bridges and buildings based on 50, 100, and 500 year events, not on the assumption that nothing will happen.

Now, go teach your granny to suck eggs, Smiles. And maybe you can tell us how Bush is right about Iraq, too ...

Erica,
Do you believe in the tooth fairy too? I used to think that you and The Stranger had some credibility but I think you have gone off the deep end.

Stuck said it well:

"So Erica, SDOT is untrustworthy for wanting a tunnel, WSDOT is untrustworthy for wanting to maintain capacity…..but when it comes to traffic management and economic impact, then they are suddenly reliable authorities?

"Speaking of credulous reporting."

Oh, I feel old. Dan Evans is the most respected politician in the history of the state. He was a moderate Republican back when those words used together meant something. He drove the John Birchers out of the Republican Party, and then won the governorship in '64 in the face of a historic Dem blowout against Goldwater. This is back when progressives voted Republican in this state, not Democratic, and when Evans's buddy Joel Pritchard easily carried Seattle precincts. And deserved them.

Since then he's been a senator, refusing to run for reelection in the changed, poisonous political climate, and he's been the most powerful force for education in the state. Without Evans, the wingers from Eastern Washington would have literally shut down the UW by now.

He still commands tremendous respect among old fogies like me. I could vote Republican again if he wasn't sui generis in today's party. Sadly, the world, and the Republican Party, passed Dan Evans by a long time ago. Watching Slade Gorton mutate from a human being into Skeletor was pretty much the last gasp for Evansism.

"Now that Dan Evans has spoken in favor of the tunnel, it's a sure thing."

"He still commands tremendous respect among old fogies like me."

And you think our generation of fogies has the numbers? To swing an election? To raise the taxes on my house for a vanity project for the Mayor and Council?

No, I have fair respect for Dan Evans and his temperate Republicanism but I don't think he will have much influence on this one. The issue isn't personalities but $$$ and practicality. As Gomez asked, "Who is this Dan Evans?"

That was then; this is now.

"Without Evans, the wingers from Eastern Washington would have literally shut down the UW by now. "

You mean Evergreen, maybe. He was the president of Evergreen for a few years, and that went a long way toward keeping the place open during the years when every legislative session featured wingnut proposals to shut the campus down.

(TESC grad here)

CITY COMFORTS Wrote:
"And you think our generation of fogies has the numbers? To swing an election? To raise the taxes on my house for a vanity project for the Mayor and Council?"

Poll the city voters north of the ship canal and you will pretty much get an idea how this election will proceed. The turn out will be poor
and these are the only people who consistently vote. As voters, they are predominately white, middle class and older. They will vote with their pocket books and Iraq in mind. You can pretty much figure it out from there.

Sui generis, Franf? Where in hell, did you come up with that one?

---Jensen

"Sui generis, adj., being the only example of its kind". It's just basic English!

Evans saved the UW many times. No one really cares what happens to Evergreen, but the UW, despite having an active football program, is a leading university, both for undergraduate education and for research. Evans has worked tirelessly for 40 years to protect funding for the U from wingnut attempts to turn it into a huge vocational school or Krazy Kristian Kamp.

Sadly, Evans has got to be close to eighty years old, and when he dies the last honorable Republican will be gone.

Just for the record, bikes are great for getting through congestion and construction.

FNARF Wrote:
"Sui generis, adj., being the only example of its kind". It's just basic English!"

Yeah, Fnarf. Basic English with a Latin flair, but I'll still it give an 85. You can dance to it and it has a good beat.

---Jensen

Oh, it's English all right. Came from Latin, but once it's in English, it's English. Unlike "I'll still it give". Hee-hee!

My dear, Fnarf, My ancient, public schooled Hawaiian roots have once again surfaced and exposed me.

Kalua pig anyone? Ono kine grinds!!

---Jensen