Comments on The Morning News

Heya Dan --

Any advice for Mr. Foley?

J

"They have laid a baby gauntlet and we're going to pick it up and go with it."

Wow.

Ah, The Republican Party: Naked greed for a few, enforced by gullible people who drink the syrupy goo called "Family Values"

Will their victims (anyone who has less than say five million dollars net value and/or works for a living) wake up? Will the voting machines let them? Will this be the straw that broke the camel's back, or will the "ewwww" factor of it being a boy and a man make them stay away from it?

And - let me just say this - when Democrats get involved in this sort of thing, it's usually between adults, and it ALWAYS involves someone actually getting laid. It's my theory that if the Republicans had satisfying sex lives, they wouldn't be Republicans.

It's great you bash the "sexist, gay-bashing" (though I don't know of any actual violence committed by church members yet) Mars Hill Church this morning, but why do you so vocally support their missionary efforts like The Paradox? As Driscoll plainly says, his congregation is being taught to be "missionaries to the city,", and the hundreds of thousands they have invested into the Paradox is definitely an investment into this goal. And it works as seen by the statement of a church couple - who..."were attracted by the music at Mars Hill."

What is The Paradox? That chrchthey call Doxa? or the music venue? either way, why does hundreds of thousands need to be invested? ok, back to the 1st, what is The Paradox?

You know...I've met both Ken "Hutch" and have been to his Church, and have met several adherents to Mars Hill. Even with all of the bombast of Hutch, I'd suggest that Mars Hill is the most dangerous Church in the Seattle area.

What happens to a "youth-oriented" church when the parishoners start to get older? Will there inevitably be a power struggle between Reverend Driscoll and a younger version, or will the invariable slide into middle and old age make Mars Hill yet another footnote in the history of shysters?

The Paradox is an all ages music venue located at Mars Hill and is funded by the church. It takes up about 1/4 of the total square footage of the church (maybe?). It books both secular and christian bands. Many would claim The Paradox exists only to put on good all ages rock shows (which it does) and has no other affiliation with Mars Hill. The Paradox advertises in the Stranger and gets lots of editorial support. However, The Paradox obviously serves as an outreach program for Mars Hill. It is made to co-opt alternative and underground youth culture, using it as a missionary tool to attract new cult members. Nothing new really, as evangelical churches are adopting this tactic around the US, just new that a pro-gay, anti-sexist alternative weekly would give so much support to an anti-gay, sexist group (especially after calling for the boycott of a homophobic dance hall musician).

Meinert nails the irony.

Why isn't Foley a Gay Proud Republican, Gay Proud Republican?

RE: Mars Hill & Republicans

What makes these people so profoundly dangerous is that they have no concept of hypocrisy, and they are incapable of feeling empathy or sympathy.

They base their deranged world views on a Bible that is completely self-contradictory and illogical. It's no wonder this cognitive dissonance has produced such venal hostility towards others.

And yes, the Stranger is giving its implied endorsement of Mars Hill when it recommends its readers attend shows at the Paradox. It's called marketing, people.

I see you let all the rabid sports fans on the SLOG all weekend. They should go back in the closet, like all the R's are.

Andrew, I don't think it's quite that bad. I think it's just that places like Mars Hill and other megachurches have figured out how to make church "entertaining", with the shiny objects and loud music. Once you get them in the door, and give them someone to blame, the rest is easy. But the sort of people who buy into that are fickle, and probably not particularly committed.

To me, the whole megachurch thing was summed up brilliantly a few years back. I was sitting in the employee cafeteria at a large downtown hotel, and overheard the HR director (a hopelessly inept blonde named "Debbie") confide to another employee "Well, I was raised Lutheran but we go to the Christian Faith Center because we think the kids should have some religion. It's great - the services are fun, and you don't have to dress up or anything"

That's a real sound theology righ there.

What's the difference between Mars Hill and the many churches that have put on punk rock and hardcore shows in the east coast, like the First Unitarian Church in Philadelphia? Or whichever churches helped foster the D.C. punk/hardcore/Dischord scene?

Asking honestly here.

MFW,

The difference is that the Mars Hill cult pushes a particularly toxic brand of fundamentalism that relegates women to property status and condemns anyone who doesn't believe exactly what they believe to fry in hell. Apparently, they read The Handmaid's Tale and thought it was an instruction book.

They also prey on young people who are lonely and looking for a purpose in life who might be susceptible to their far right views. The very same thing is going on right now in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc.

On a side note, it's highly questionable if their social/economic model is sustainable. They don't want women to work, and given the cost of housing and child care, making it on just the husband's income is going to be pure hell (pun intended). Also, the authoritarian nature of these relationships, where the women have no say in family decisions, produces spectacular divorce rates. Evangelical Christians have some of the highest divorce rates in the world, so I'd be interested in finding out what happens to people who leave the cult and/or divorce.

It is important to note that churches have been used as spaces for all ages shows for a long time. These are usually done by churches who have the space they are willing to rent, appreciate they are allowing kids to have a safe space to hang out in, and who have a moderate or liberal social world veiw. The difference being that Mars Hill is providing space because they view the Paradox as a way to recruit new members, not just provide space. They also don't rent it out, they subsidize the space. And, as Andrew and Dan Savage point out, Mars Hill is anything but moderate, they preach a very right wing, sexist and homophobic brand of christianity.

I think it is ironic to hear indie kids worry about what corporations sponsor shows, but not worry about the churches. We have outcry's about Microsoft not wanting to grant same sex couples benefits, but don't worry about Mars Hill calling for their congregation to 'remove the cancer' of homosexuality from their community. Mars Hill is a corporation and their views should be judged as we judge any other corportation. Many in the music scene would not want to go to a venue sponsored by a corporation that openly preaches sexism and homopobia, and rightly so. The same standard should be held to churches.

On churches:
I would argue that you don't need to have a whole bunch of theologically devout people for a religious movement to be dangerous; in fact, if everyone had convictions, it might produce more intra-group strife, and more gridlock, and less damage to the outside world. It's when there's a whole group of people who aren't thinking and analyzing their own actions and opinions, and a few who are devout, or know how to appear devout as a control mechanism, that things get dangerous. And if Mars Hill really engages in hate speech, can't charges be pressed? That would be excellent.

On the fertility gap:
If the country is 50-50 now, with two practically tied presidential elections in a row, I guess it's time to go. Europe, Canada or Australia?

On Republicans fucking:
Someone mentioned in that article that the fertility gap is proof that this actually does occur. It's true! I have a conservative friend back home whose parents have committed sins of the flesh at least FOUR TIMES. Golly, those wild cretins!!

Neither Europe, Canada, nor Australia are perfectly safe either. All have their ongoing fascinations with the right wing. There are successful candidates in France, Denmark, Holland, Italy, etc. who make Bush look like a fluffy bunny. Canada's got a conservative PM, and so does Australia. The Aussie's far right is absolutely mental, and large swathes of the country have some left-over racial attitudes that will melt your hair.

New Zealand, maybe, but you won't be able to find work.

My partner and I looked into immigrating to Canada, and I can tell you that even going up the road to BC is very expensive, probably about $10,000 for two people for immigration and attorney's fees plus the physical costs of moving. It takes about two years to become a legal resident and then three more years to become a citizen. That option is still on the table for us, but things will have to get a lot worse before we make that leap.

No, we're better off staying put for now. One thing I realized is that the Repubs may be incredibly powerful now, but they're also equally incompetent. There is simply no policy apparatus in place; everything is done for political reasons, no matter what havoc that creates.

They haven't been able to tame Afghanistan or Iraq despite the fact that they've literally thrown everything they have at those poor people: aerial bombings, disappearances, mass arrests, torture, you name it. They've just about destroyed the army and national guard, so it's not likely they'll be able to put down some homegrown homos for purely ideological reasons.

So don't give up. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back soon and we can fix the damage.