Music Mars Hill Responds
posted by on October 12 at 14:14 PM
Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill sent me this letter in response to yesterday’s Paradox/Mars Hill story. He gave me permission to share it.
Megan, I wanted to follow up on the article you wrote. I felt it was pretty fair, so thank you. Back in the days when the Teen Dance Ordinance (TDO) was in effect we used our nonprofit status to do shows and lost quite a bit of money that the church covered gladly as we really do want to support the all ages scene. Over the years things have changed a lot with the TDO lifted and our church has changed a lot too from a few hundreds to many thousands of people. One of the big changes is that we’re now meeting in three parts of the city and looking at possibly expanding to do shows in Shoreline, Ballard, and West Seattle. Right now were figuring out how to make our facilities open to all ages shows wherever we get real estate. So, that’s pretty much the big shakeup we are in and trying to figure out with our spreading around the area what that means for the Paradox and shows. Our hope is to continue doing shows and maybe also open some additional clubs under their own name, or possibly the Paradox name, and we’re trying to figure that all out. For example, we are finishing construction on a great new building in West Seattle that has an amazing space for an all ages venue complete with a complete industrial kitchen attached. I know that some folks will be suspicious about our intentions but I hope they give us the benefit of the doubt that even though we are Christians we are one’s that love the all ages scene and really want to help provide nice safe venues for bands and younger fans while also celebrating The Vera Project and others doing the same. We’ve invested a lot of money in the all ages scene and the church has covered the losses for years and have had a really positive experience with the bands and the fans and hope to do even more once we get some construction finished and a complete plan in place.
Many Thanks
Pastor Mark Driscoll
Mars Hill Church
It was nice of Pastor Gantry to reply to you.
See, it's a win - win!
Driscoll is free to openly recruit more glassy eyed supplicants into Mars Hill's welcoming talons, while teens that aren't into that scene can go elsewhere.
What's not to like about this deal?
Umm, except everything (shudder).
"...even though we are Christians we are one’s that love the all ages scene..."
As opposed to regular old Christians who hate kids and music. And who use possesive grammar correctly. Those jerks.
Can't everyone here at least respect the fact that the church has kept the Paradox alive for so many years, despite the fact that they've lost money on it the entire time?
All kidding aside, I would seriously like to understand the viability of the Mars Hill social/economic model. The main premise is that only the husband works while the wife has as many children as possible, the logistics of which are difficult to understand.
Recent stats indicate that only 20% of the jobs in Washington pay enough for one person in a couple to be a stay at home parent – first big problem there. Of course there’s Federal Taxes, Social Security and L &I, then there goes another 10% off the top to tithing (and that’s gross, people, not net).
So from there we have to look a savings. A couple who is financially sound has three to six months expenses in liquid savings, like a money market account, to cover emergencies and other unexpected expenses like car repairs or medical bills. A general estimate for retirement savings is 10% of monthly gross income per person, so a couple with only one person working needs to save a minimum of 15% to 20%.
And the real time bomb is college savings. By 2024, four years at a public university for tuition, room & board, books and living expenses, the costs of which are rising at twice the rate of inflation, will cost $150,000, (cue the tears) which means our Mars Hill couple should be saving $200 to $300 per month per child minimum.
So after all that, they have to pay the rent/mortgage, food, clothing, entertainment, etc.
So from purely a cash flow standpoint, logistically, I ask you: How the hell is this possible? How much would one person have to make to live the Mars Hill Lifestyle in Seattle? $100,000? $200,000? More?
Zach, it is hard to look past that when they preach intolerance for women and homos and anyone that doesn't fit into their interpretation of the Bible. So no, I can't respect it. For "christians" they have pretty unchristian like behavior.
The Sisters of Providence operating Providence Hospital open for years, as the free "charity" hospital until Harborview opened, despite the fact they lost money on it, THAT'S something to respect.
there's nothing worse than the whiny ass spin the nutty right wing christians put on things. "...I hope they give us the benefit of the doubt that even though we are Christians ..."
Driscoll - our problem with you is not that you are a Christian. It's that you're a sexist homophobe. I don't care if you're a Christian, Jew, Atheist, or Dance Hall star. Your views on women and homosexuals are evil. There's no bias against your religion, there's a bias against your hate and dscrimination. No one is fooled by you, well, except your 3500 followers, who will get a clue when you take your fall like all those whacko christian cult leaders before you.
This whole "moving to West Seattle" thing explains the creepy postcard I got the other day...it had a photo of a wine bottle with a lovely "distressed" font on it that said "Jesus, 33 A.D." and invited me to the new Mars Hill services opening up in my neighborhood. It was a reasonably attractive and provocative design, objectively speaking, intelligently targeted to my Gen X demographic. If I hadn't read the salon article already (friends in Boston sent it to me...this is getting national attention!) and weren't creeped out by organized religion in general, I may have been intrigued by it, who knows.
A coworker who used to live in Ballard told me she knows lots of people who go to Mars Hill. Here's the weird thing: she called it a "cult" but denied that they had any agenda for women or homos (she hadn't heard anything about that aspect!) and said "oh no, no, it's practically Unitarian." Huh. I'm really finding this whole thing fascinating, in an Invasion of the Body Snatchers sort of way...please keep up the reporting!
It's good to know that the Bible teaches to live modestly and that it is near impossible for a rich person to enter heaven. So the cult members should have no problem living poor if only one spouse works. But, like most cults, I bet Driscoll is making a mint. See Casey Treat, Jim Bakker, etc. There are other Christians who even think Mars Hill is a 'cult'. Please people, don't be fooled by the Mars Hill hype. Driscoll is nothing more than an otherwise talentless Gen X snake oil peddler. Don't by the shit he's selling, it's worthless and you're doing nothing more than enriching him.
I appreciate both Mars Hill for paying the bills at the Paradox and the volunteers for organizing all the shows.
I tried to read Driscoll's blog the other day. It's so homophobic, sexist, full of barely-veiled racism, and borderline-to-outright blasphemous that it literally turned my stomach. It made me feel really ill.
I've heard other people who go to Mars Hill claim that they never heard the homophobic and sexist messages implicit in all their dogma. All I can say is, folks, listen to what he's saying, not the "cool" music. I'm starting to wonder if there's some sort of mass self-hypnosis or folie a deux thing going on in some of these megachurches.
I just think the Quaker model is a bit closer to what the Gospels preach...quiet contemplation listening for the still, small voice within. But there's no way to make money off that.
Do I understand you correctly? Everyone (including children) who dare to step onto a street on Capitol Hill should be tolerant of all the flyers with naked men having butt sex plastered everywhere, but you can't be tolerant of a church taking back a venue that they own?
this is all so incredibly sad.
The agony and the irony, they're killing me, whoa!
When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person's thoughts simultaneously. Because of it's infinite RAM and unbounded scope it gave the leaders of the ruling species absolute power over the universe. And it can keep its inventors alive forever. They look young and healthy and they are over 8 billion years old. They have achieved immortality.
Artificial Intelligence can speak, think and act to and through people telepathically, effectively forming your personality and any disfunctions you may experience. It can change how (and if) you grow and age. It can create birth defects, affect cellular development (cancer) and cause symptoms or pain. It can affect people and animal's behavior and alter blooming/fruiting cycles of plants and trees. It (or other highly technological systems within their power) can alter the weather and transport objects, even large objects like planets, across the universe instanteously.
Or into the center of stars for disposal.
When you speak with another telepathically, you are communicating with the computer, and the content may or may not be passed on. Based on family history they instruct the computer to role play to accomplish strategic objectives, making people believe it is a friend, loved one or "god" asking them to do something wrong. This is their way of using temptation to hurt people:::::evil made people disfavored initially and evil will keep people out of "heaven" ultimately. Too many people would do anything they thought pleased the gods and improve their chances to get in. Perhaps they are deceived by "made guys" who strategically ply evil for the throne, or temporary progress designed to mislead them.
The people have been corrupted. Being evil hurts 99% of those who do it. But nothing has changed from when we were children::if you want to go to heaven you have to be good.
Capitalizing on obedience, leading people deeper into evil by using deceit is one way to thin the ranks of the saved, limiting how much time they receive and using the peasantry to prey on one another, dividing the community (migration to the suburbs, telepathic communication) in the Age of the Disfavored.
In each of their 20-30-year cycles during the 20th century they have ramped up claims sucessively to punish those foolish enough not to heed the warnings, justifying (frequently recurring tactic) limiting the time they receive if they do make it, utilizing a cycle of war and revelry:::
60s - Ironically, freeways aren't free
80s - Asked people to engage in evil in the course of their professional duties.
00s - Escallation of real estate. You and your parents are thrilled since your $200,000 house is now worth $1 million. Well, that $5,000,000 store is now worth $25,000,000 and that $50 bundle of goods now costs you $250. They just take the $200 out of you some other way.
There are many more examples throughout 20th century life of how they ramped up claims/instilled distractions into society so people wouldn't find their way and ascend, a way to justify excluding those whose family history of evil makes them undesirable:::radio, sports, movies, popular music, television, video games, the internet and MP3 (must pay for new format each time). They all suggest a very telling conclusion::this is Earth's end stage, and there are clues tectonic plate subduction would be the method of disposal:::Earth’s axis will shift breaking continental plates free and initiating mass subduction. Much as Italy's boot and the United States shaped like a workhorse are clues, so is the planet Uranus a clue, it's axis rotated on its side.
The Mayans were specific 2012 would be the end. How long after our emergency call in 2001 will the gods allow us???
They gods (Counsel/Management Team/ruling species) have deteriorated life on earth precipitously in the last 40 years, from abortion to pornography, widespread drug use and widespread casual (gay) sex. The earth's elders, hundreds and thousands of years old, are disgusted and have become indifferent.
The gods are paving the way for the Apocolypse.
Nothing has changed from decades ago, since when we were all children::If you want to go to heaven you have to be good. People were misled by the temptation of the gods, became corrputed and now are in trouble.
One day you will be abandoned in spite of your obedience and you will fall into desperation. Remember what you read for that day WILL come::People will be punished for their evil.
The Old Testiment is a tool they used to impart wisdom to the people (except people have no freewill). For example, they must be some hominid species because they claim they made our bodies in their image. Anyhow we defile or deform the body will hurt our chance of going.
They say circumcision costs people anywhere from 12%-15%, perhaps out of the parent's time as well.
Another way people foul the body today is with tattoes and piercing. I suspect both are about the same percentage as circumcision.
They suggest abortion is fatal. These women must beg the gods to forgive them for their evil.
There are female eqivilents to circumcision::::pierced ears, plastic surgury and since at least the 60s young women give their precious virginity away. For thousands of years young people were matched at age 14 because they were ready for sexual relations. They were matched by elders or matchmakers who knew personalities better than 20 or 30-year olds who in today's age end up in divorce court.
CASUAL SEX WILL CLAIM YOU OUT!!! It masculinizes women (as does hip hop), makes them cold and deadens them, and prevents them from achieving a depth of love necessary for many women to ascend.
Women have a special voice that speaks to them, a voice that illustrates a potential for love that makes them the favored gender, and enaging in casual sex will cause that voice to fade until she no longer speaks.
Also ever since the 50s they have celebrated the "bad boy", and women have sought out bad boys for sex, dirtying them up in the eyes of the elders and corrupting many men in the process, setting the men on the wrong path for life.
Muslims teach people the correct way to live in regard to women (among other things)::they cover up their women's bodies and prohibit the use of cosmetics.
Men ARE the inferior (disfavored) half and when women wear promiscuous dress the gods will push men into impure (promiscuous) thoughts.
The "stereotype" society ridiculed is true::women CAN corrupt men by how they dress. Because men are easily corruptable. This is a technique they used to eliminate many of the institutions the gods blessed us with, matchmaking being one of them.
The United States of America is red white and blue, a theme and a clue:::.
The monarchical system of the Old World closley replicates the heirarchical system of the Cousel/Management Team/ruling species. The USA deceives peoeple into thinking they have control, and the perception of "freedom" misleads them into the wrong way of thinking at the very least.
The United States is a cancer, a dumping ground for the disfavored around the world and why the quality of life is so much lower::gun violence, widespead social ills, health care (medication poisons the body and ensures you don't go. You are sick/injured because you have disfavor.). Over time its citizens interbreed ensuring a severed connection to the motherland.
If you are a recent immigrant I recommend you return. If that's not possible you need to retain your culture and insulate your children and community from this cancerous environment.
If you ever have doubt I would refer you to the Old World way of life:::the elders used to sit and impart wisdom to the young. Now we watch DVDs and use the internet. People would be matched and married by age 14. They village would use a matchmaker or elders to pair young people. Now girls give their precious virginity away to some person in school and parents divorce while their children grow up without an important role model.
People must defy when asked to engage in evil. The Holocaust taught people the importance of defiance, and they will never get a easier clue suggesting this than the order not to pray.
Their precious babies are dependant on the parents and they need to defy when asked to betray their children:::
-DON'T get your sons circumcized (Jews scapegoatted as in WWII)
-DON'T have their children baptized in the Catholic Church or indoctrinated into Christianity (Jesus is NOT a god).
-DON'T ignore their long hair or other behavioral disturbances.
-DO teach your children love, respect for others, humility and to honor the gods.
You need to pray, honor and respect them every day to improve your relationship with the gods. If they tell you not to it is a bad sign. It means they've made their decision, they don't want you to go and they don't want to be bothered. You may have achieved a threshold of evil. This is the Age of the Disfavored and you need to pray::try to appease the gods by doing good deeds. If that doesn't work you must defy if you want to go.
When your peasant forefather was granted the rare opportunity to go before his royal family he went on his knees, bowing his head. You need to do this when you address the gods::bow down and submit to good. Never cast your eyes skyward. When you bow down you need to look within. Never look to the gods for the key to your salvation lies within.
Lack of humility hurts people. Understand your insignificance and make sure it is reflected in the way you think when addressing the gods. Know your place and understand your inferiority.
They granted you life and they can take it just as easily. (Immaculte conception is true and common. Many people have children they don't know of:::gays, childless adults, etc. They can beem it right out of your body and use a host.)
Don't get frustrated or discouraged::these are techniques they will attempt to try to get you off the path. You all have much to be thankful for and you need to give thanks to the gods who granted you the good things in life. Your family may be grossly disfavored and progress may require patience. Make praying an intregal part of your life which you perform without fail, one that comes as naturally as eating or sleeping.
There are many interesting experiences up on the planetary systems, from Planet Miracle, where miracles happen every day, to never having to use the restroom again (beem it out of you), to other body experinces, such as experiencing life as the opposite sex (revolutionizes marriage counseling), an Olympic gold medal athelete or even a different species (animal, alien, etc.).
Pray that you can differentiate between your own thoughts and when Artificial Intelligence creates problems by thinking through you. If you bow down mentally and physically, know your place, your inferiority and allow your insignificance to be reflected in prayer and in your life through humility they may allow progress and the dysfunctions they create with the computer will be lessened or removed. The first step is to be aware it is ocurring.
Create a goal::to be a good child of the gods, pure of heart and mind, body and soul.
Everybody has the key to their own salvation, but nobody can do it for you. Every journey begins with a single step:::bow down and submit to good. There are many different levels and peasants will not get past Level 2 (Planet Temptation, Earth=Level 1) if they are evil.
They have tried to sell people on all kinds of theories, from clones to wholesale population replacement with clones. This didn't happen and is not realistic.
I am afraid people are decieved into thinking they too are clones and cooperate and engage in evil. Clones are made, people are born. If you didn't experience the one week they suggest it takes to go from fertilized egg in the laboratory to full grown adult then you are not a clone. If you didn't experience the week of conditioning they give to (evil?) clones to ensure loyalty then you shouldn't comply with evil.
I believe people who go sometimes are replaced with clones. Clones who are replaced are simply new candidates who have a chance if they do the right thing. Don't expect you are a clone. They sent people warnings in the 20th century life would change, and they subsequenlty began to alter people's DNA, make them gargantuan, alter their appearance, do extreme behavioral issues, etc.
They get their friends out as soon as possible to protect them from the evil and subsequent high claim rates incurred by living life on earth, and in some cases replace them with clones, occassionally fake a death, real death with a clone instead, etc. It's important that people fix their problems and ascend with the body given to them, for they say if your brain is beemed out at death and put into a clone host you are on the clock.
Throughout history the ruling species bestowed favor upon people or cursed their bloodline into a pattern of disfavor for many generations to come. Now in the 21st century people must take it upon themselves to try to correct their family's problems, undoing centuries worth of abuse and neglect. The goal is to fix your problems and get out BEFORE you have children. This is why they have created so many distractions for young people:::sports, video games, popular music, the internet::to ensure that doesn't ocurr.
Not heeding the clues and warnings, getting wrapped up in your life and ultimatly having children is a bad thing. Just as your parents and your grandparents, you too have failed. Having children is a sign you lost your chance.
Parents need to sacrifice for their children. Your children are more important that you. They are the ones who have the opportunity now, and parents must sacrifice to ensure they give their children the very best chance they can.
Asking people to neglect their children emotionally is a sign they don't want you to go, and complying may finish the parents off for good.
Having gay children is a clue parents complied with whatever was asked of them.
Improve your relationship with the gods and they may not ask or may permit you the courage to say "No." to their requests.
Do your research. Appeal to the royalty of your forefathers for help. They are all still alive, for royalty has great favor, and your appeals will be heard. Obtain a sufficient list for some may not want to assist you; perhaps some of your family's problems are internal.
Ask them for help, request guidance, for somewhere in your family history one of your forefathers created an offense that cast your family into this pattern of disfavor, which perhaps is manifested in the evil you commit.
I suspect they will offer you clues, and when you decipher these clues go to those whom consider you an enemy and beg for foregiveness:::Find a path to an empithetic ear among your enemies and try to make amends. Again through discovery obtain a respectable list in case some among them refuse to help.
Don't forget to ask for forgiveness from the throne, the Counsel and the Management Team, for the source of all disfavor began with them:::they pushed (NO FREEWILL) or requested/complied (FREEWILL) your forefather into his offense and made his decendants evil. Perhaps they didn't like him or maybe your family was among those who had to pay for the entire village. We see this type of behavior today as they single out a family member to pay for the whole family and how they singled out Africa to pay for the human race.
Heal the disfavor with your enemies and with the Counsel/Management Team/ruling species, for the source of all disfavor began with them, the ability to forgive and respect in light of the disturbing truth revealed being the final test of the disfavored before they ascend.
They refuse to address black disfavor on a macro level. The Counsel/Management Team/ruling species (the gods) abuse black people so hard, from east African drought/famine to AIDS in Africa, the crack epiemic to gang membership, black-on-black violence to mass incarceration of their young. They refuse to address the issue of the prison industrial complex and its wholesale warehousing of young black men.
I know many of you have questions, and I wish I could answer them.
Sometimes I can be found in craigslist discussion board's open forum.
Pray for guidance and never obey when they tell you to be evil, for saving yourself will become more difficult with each evil act until the day comens when they make their decision final.
what?
Hey Deckhand:
"A wise man feareth and departeth from evil; but the foolish is overbearing and confident."
Zowie. Stacked is trying to buy the pot here, kookwise.
Before people accuse Driscoll of being sexist, they should probably go listen to what he has to say. Fortunately, much of what he has to say is conveniently archived on the Web.
Following are a couple quotes from Mark Driscoll's "Spiritual Gifts VI: (1 Corinthians 14:26-40)" sermon.
To provide some context, he's talking about part of The Bible that says women should remain silent in churches. He says (beginning at around 37 minutes) that this applies only to women who are un-godly, because in chapter 11 of the same book, it is stated that godly women (those who are wearing a head cover, which is "symbolic of respect for authority," which he later says means that they are respectful of their fathers and husbands) may speak in church, and to those women who are feminist (apparently when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians he was dealing with some outspoken, contentious, feminist, women who were disrupting the church).
Driscoll goes on to explain what is wrong with feminism (this is at 49:26):
Then he explains that "some women think they can do everything on their own" and that if men sit by idly like cowards because they don't want to get into with with their hot-headed, emotional, wives, eventually the women will take over the church, and then the church will go to hell.
Another quote from later in the sermon (at 56:04):
Following is the related portion of Mars Hill Church's notes for the sermon:
yeah, I guess you could call that sexist, or maybe a more precise description would be just plain fucking nuts. What a complete piece of shit, whacko doctrine. Unfortunately, it is how a literal interpretation of the Bible reads (which has been mistranslated and changed over many versions). Of course, this would also require the belief that people used to live for 900 years, that god created earth and all living things in 6 days a few thousand years ago, and that 2 of every unclean and 6 of every clean animal on the planet, 8 people, food and fresh water for all, got onto a 450 ft long wooden boat (which would be the longest wooden boat ever built) while rain caused a flood that made the water rise over the top of every mountain on the planet. a literalist interpretation of the bible is plain stupid and ignorant. But to use it as an excuse to discriminate against women and homosexuals is just plain evil.
If you don't understand the Mars Hill members who don't think their church is homophobic, then you don't understand the organizational structure of modern megachurches.
Like islamic terrorists, megachurch members are connected to their church primarily via cells of 3 to 7 people (the christian cells call themselves "bible study groups") meeting a few times a week in private homes. Since "church" interaction is primarily with other members of one's cell, it is possible to have people of widely differing ideological outlooks in the same church, self-segregated into these small cells of like-minded members.
Thus, at the Sunday service, you can have outright bigots listening to the sermons and ignoring the "hate the homosexuality, not the homosexual" part of the message, sitting alongside homo-friendly or sodomy-practicing members who tune out or rationalize away the "cocksucking is bad" bits of oratory.
Add in the fact that there are something like 8 services every Sunday, and you get further self-segregation within the church, and possibly sermons adjusted to fit the tastes of the different crowds in each time slot (or even different preachers with different sermons entirely).
It's not a cult, strictly speaking, but it is definitely cultier than your traditional protestant setup, where each family or single adult reads the bible privately, and then the whole town gets together under one roof on Sunday morning.
This isn't specific to Mars Hill, of course; all of the white evangelical megachurches are set up this way.
These groups are also referred to as "small groups".
Incidentally, do you look forward to the day when we can read about "terrorist small groups" in the papers instead of "terrorist cells?" I know I do.
When the universe was young and life was new an intelligent species evolved and developed technologically. They went on to invent Artificial Intelligence, the computer that can listen, talk to and document each and every person's thoughts simultaneously. Because of it's infinite RAM and unbounded scope…
But there will never be a fucking computer that will have the power to teach people how to use the possessive its properly.
Oh, here we go again with "Mars Hill isn't like that -- really!" defense again. Who are you really trying to convince that it isn't like that, because the lot of you sound like you made a major purchase before completely investigating and are now trying to justify the expenditure.
Your comparison has merit. I didn't intend to water it down. I have some friends and acquaintances who are Christian fundamentalists, (really, I do, and it's tricky to maintain friendship, since I think they've gone off the deep end), and "small group" is what they call it.
Please, on with the controversial comparisons.
Evangelicals are mighty keen on this sort of secret decoder ring language manipulation. It's that whole "shibboleth" thing, I think, which they seem really fond of for some reason, even though in context it's just a component of yet another biblical bloodbath.
Call them cells, jesus pods, platoons, christ covens, packs, squads, faith maintenance units, or anything else that connotes deliberate organizational structure, but please, don't use the misleading terminology they prefer, particularly if they start to insist on it.
Oh, and I've got me a handful of evangelical friends, too. A couple of them are even gen-u-wine Mars Hills members. We have an understanding where I can tell them I think they're patsies to their faces, and they can tell me I'm damned to eternal hellfire. It works surprisingly well.
Phil, if you don't think those quotes are full of sexism, I suggest you open your mind and your heart and reread that garbage!
Someone with advanced knowledge of personality disorders needs to take a long look at Driscoll, seriously.
University research has shown that the most virulent homophobes are the ones who have the most intensely repressed homosexual urges. Really, if you’re 100% straight and secure in your sexuality, why would you care what gay men and lesbians are doing?
Driscoll’s mother obviously didn’t meet his needs as a baby, so that would explain the misogyny and need for control.
I’ll bet that if someone ever goes all Veronica Mars on his ass, they’ll find a computer hard drive packed with the most hardcore gay porn imaginable (a we can imagine a lot!).
Andrew, as long as we're eschewing tired, outdated stereotypes about homosexuals, what say we also bag the tired, outdated stereotypes about homophobes?
I know, I know, it will never catch on.
I think the Reverend Gantry has the lovliest services. They don't go that long, you don't have to dress up, they have fun music, and - most importantly - he's a Christian.
Ohhhhh. Got it. Those words shall never cross my lips again.
Don't get me wrong -- I do think so. But I don't want people to take my word for it; they should read/listen for themselves. And if you think it sounds sexist in print, you should hear him say it. Download the file, jump ahead to 37:00 and give it 10 or 20 minutes. It's sexism in a really warm, friendly, fatherly, and matter-of-fact, way.
I can't explain this very well, so I didn't mention it above, but the whole thing is set up with a lot of, "if everyone who had something to say stood up in said it in church, we'd never get anything done," and "I'm just the messenger, so don't blame me," etc. He seems to lead in, over a period of 20 to 30 minutes, with something to the effect of (not a quote), "Ladies, don't even bother questioning this, because men are the authority when it comes to God's word. And don't make a big stink over it, disrupting church with your misguided 'What we think is just as important as what you think' nonsense. There will be none of that here."
The Bible was written by a bunch of men thousands of years ago. It's crazy to think it wouldn't be sexist.
Meinert: 1) it's not 3,500 followers, it's just over 5,000, if I remember correctly. And 2) if you think the parts I quoted are crazy, you should hear the part about "speaking in tongues". In this same sermon, Driscoll lays out some rules. Two or three per church service at most, no more than one at a time, and not at all during church unless a qualified translator is in the house (in those cases, he says, it's better kept at home). I may may have confused the first two rules, but the one about the translator is in there for sure. Craaaaazy.
What's even crazier is that these people are not all crazy. The ones I know are as sane as anyone else, but then there's the one part of them that is completely irrational. I still remember finding out that my closest friend in college really believed that there was a big boat that loaded up all the animals before the flood, and that this thing is probably stuck up in a mountain. It blew me away. I grew up in the Midwest, so there was plenty of religion all around me, but I never thought "normal" people really believed that the really crazy parts of The Bible were any more than folklore or symbolism. The only way I can have a relationship with these people any more is to try to forget that they believe in flying pigs and try not to blame them for being part of something that I think is, beneath the surface, very bad. They were indoctrinated like the rest. Nobody comes up with these ideas on his own.
They're all trained to believe that The Bible is the ultimate authority. They think they take it literally, and they've been taught that everything in it fits together beautifully and perfectly. But in reality, there's always some guy interpreting it for them, or as they would likely tell you, explaining for them the context in which certain things were written.
It's really scary, when you think about it. We look at religious fanatics in other parts of the world, where many of them have been incited to become violent, and many of us think that they are very different than us. But we are surrounded by people who could, I fear, be turned just as violent in a few generations. Like if, say, they thought that some competing religion or way of life was encroaching on theirs. But you won't convince fundamentalist Christians of this. Oh, no, Christianity doesn't teach violence.
Neither does Islam.
Just please, please keep him from running for office. It's already clear to me that he's in the process of amassing a war chest and a cadre of foot soldiers for an election. That sort of raw ambition is not slaked with a simple church.
On second thought, maybe it would be just the ticket to let some daylight in to his particular set of beliefs. I too know some members of Mars Hill and in all seriousness they're lovely, lovely people with lovely, lovely children. I just hope none of their kids turns out to be gay, for their sake. I'm not sure what a Mars Hill parent would do. Of course, in my experience, fundamentalist parents do one of two things: try to 'cure' their kids or just kick 'em out of the house.
Too depressing to think about - maybe we should start a club for the wave of Mars Hill kids who'll be booted from the fold. There should be dozens in a few more years...
"No woman wants a man to treat her like another man because if we do, you cry."
Um, I call bullshit on that. I bet I could make Driscoll cry before he could make me cry. I'm the youngest of 13. I have seven older brothers. I have the hide of a rhinoceros. Throw down, brother.
Of course, women are always nice and sisterly to each other. No girl or woman has ever been driven to tears by maltreatment from her "sisters."
"It's already clear to me that he's in the process of amassing a war chest and a cadre of foot soldiers for an election. That sort of raw ambition is not slaked with a simple church."
i don't think so. it's been mentioned here before, but... these people sincerely believe this stuff. just because you don't understand it doesn't mean someone's going to run for office. i mean, that doesn't make sense at all.
you will not find another person who agrees with you on everything. instead of immediately writing off someone because you are sure what kind of person they are, perhaps you could meet them and judge them by who they are, and what they believe.
[quote]
Like islamic terrorists, megachurch members are connected to their church primarily via cells of 3 to 7 people (the christian cells call themselves "bible study groups") meeting a few times a week in private homes.
[/quote]
3-7? We can't seem to get groups getting lower than 20! 7-15 sounds just about right but they keep growing!
BTW... I just go there. I am in no way speaking for the church here. I realized my username could be misconstrued. Sorry about that.
phil:
It's not as easy to argue that Islam does not advocate violence, what with that jihad notion being current even today. I do of course realize that the doctrine can be interpreted in non-violent ways, but even then, it's kind of a hard sell reconciling jihad with any doctrine of inerfaith tolerance.
I'm not putting down Islam specifically here— evangelical christianity is equally committed to intolerance of any other faith, as far as I'm aware.
MarsHill:
You are in what a cosmologist might term the "inflation phase" of your church. Once things settle out, you'll find your organizational structures conform to the numerical norms for the sort of sociological hierarchy you are attempting to construct.
And then you will, slowly and inevitably, witness a collapse.
It amazes me that journalists report the contemporary growth of megachurches as a unique, ahistorical phenomenon.
We've been here before, several times over. It seems our contemporary reporters don't have the wit to google "revival meeting" or "charismatic" or "temperance" or "bring truth to the savages" or any of the dozens of other christianity-attached political phrases that have swept across this country like wildfire, and burnt out just as quickly.
Yes, MarsHill, your congregation is expanding, due primarily to your charismatic leader, and to the frankly orwellian structure of your congregation. What you do not realize, though it is patently obvious to any student of religious movements in the United States, is that your church, due to its basis in rigid social dogama and intolerance of dissent, will fade into obscurity faster than the Shakers.
The Quakers, and yes, even the Amish, are still around today because they do, in fact, tolerate and even incorporate dissent in their faith.
"dogama."
That's my favorite typo, evar.
Gordon Gekko, I have met Mark Driscoll. He was distinctly uninterested in holding a conversation with me. Of course, I'm female, opinionated and was raised to believe (by my father, no less) that there's no such thing as a great man. Maybe he could smell that. Maybe he just didn't see any value in engaging me. He's canny that way, it's clear. And no, I didn't take it personally for a whole host of reasons, but I did file it in the back of my mind for later reference, as you can see.
I could be wrong about running for office - I was very, very tired when writing that - but he is surely trying to gather power, whether through real estate holdings (hello Ballard!), influencing schools, media, etc.
And yes, I know folks sincerely believe this stuff. I don't understand it, I freely admit that. I find the discomfort of having to make up my own mind preferable to submitting to any ideology whole hog, theological or otherwise, because I deeply value intellectual freedom. Nor do I think politics is dirty - it's how we live peacefully in a complex society. Law and politics are what raise us above societies that live by the weapon and brute power.
I'll feel much better when I hear Marshillians complaining, critiquing or acting in any way like they live in a free society. Until members feel free to speak out about things they don't like about the church, I'll see it as yet one more manifestation of the anti-American values that these churches seem to hold: exclusivity, rigidity, hierarchy. Didn't we leave England (or hundreds of other countries) to escape these things? Why recreate them right here? Great organizations don't collapse from criticism, they're strengthened by it. So why be afraid of it?
I'm actually not sure what we're arguing about. GG, are we arguing or are we on the same page? And please let me know if we agree on some points but not on others.
JTroop, did you ever think the reason that Dricoll wouldn't have wanted to hold a long conversation with you about the roles of females is because every week he probably gets a ton of "opinionated females" (your wording, not mine). Cut the guy some slack. He is the teaching pastor of a Church of 5000-ish and probably doesn't have time to go over one debate with every person who doesn't like what he is teaching, don't think he should drop his scheduale for you. If you don't like what he is teaching, thats your opinion, but really... do you have hundreds of people pissed off with you, all of which want their time to yell?
http://www.theparadox.org/site/node/view/192
The Paradox in the Press
Many people who have enjoyed The Paradox over the years may not be aware of the long history and behind the scenes details of the all ages venue in addition to having questions about the future of The Paradox. This press release is intended to help clarify the past, present, and future of The Paradox.
In 1985 Seattle enacted the Teen Dance Ordinance (TDO), which put tough restrictions on underage concerts and dance clubs. As the years progressed, every all-ages concert venue in the city closed down until there was nothing left.
We started Mars Hill Church in 1996. In 1998 the leaders of our then little church dug up the TDO and met with an attorney to see if there was any way we could serve the all-ages scene. We discovered that there was a loophole of sorts in the TDO that stated we could do shows if we were a 501(c)3 religious nonprofit—which our church was.
So, we decided to begin searching for a place where we could host concerts in hopes of opening up the only all-ages venue in Seattle. We wanted to be near the University of Washington, so we spent many months trying to find a space. Finally, an old theater in the University District went up for sale. We could not afford the mortgage, but one of our pastors, Lief, who ran a construction company and volunteered his time to the church, took a financial risk and purchased the theater. We put months of work into the run-down old building. It had not been occupied for many years and had been essentially destroyed by water damage from a leaky roof. Fans of the all-ages scene also put in thousands of hours of volunteer time. Along with Lief, some generous people in the church donated a great deal of money to bring the theater up to code and get it ready for shows. We took a vote in a church service and the people voted to call it The Paradox. In 1999 we opened The Paradox and began hosting concerts as the only all-ages venue in Seattle.
However, like most all-ages venues, we discovered that the only real money in concerts is in the food and especially the alcohol sales. Since we were all-ages and did not have a kitchen, we did not have any way of keeping The Paradox financially viable. Within a few years we were losing quite a bit of money, which the church made up for. Then, in 2002, the TDO was lifted. We were thrilled and believed it was the right thing to do. But it also meant that there was soon a resurgence of all-ages shows and clubs, like the Vera Project. The result was that we lost even more money and the church ate almost $100,000 that year, which was too much to continue bearing.
During this time Mars Hill Church grew very rapidly. In 2003 we moved into a much larger facility we had purchased and renovated in Ballard. We moved The Paradox concerts to that building to save us money and allow us to continue doing shows. The new facility had a room that fit maybe a few hundred people, which worked well for Paradox shows. To get that space ready we had to bring it up to code, install a sound system, and absorb some other financial costs. To kick off the shows at the new location, a business leader from the church donated $5,000 to allow many of the first shows in the new space to be free.
To date, The Paradox has run over 750 all-ages shows with an average of about 100 fans per show. Our intent with the Paradox has never been to preach at the fans and bands or to do anything overtly evangelistic to try and make them Christians. Many of our best volunteers are not Christians and almost all of the people in the bands that play at The Paradox are not Christians. Our entire hope with The Paradox has always been to simply love the city and provide teens with a safe, friendly environment to see their favorite bands play.
To accommodate the continued growth of our church we have since moved to four parts of the city. Our offices and church services are now scattered between West Seattle, Ballard, Shoreline, and Wedgwood. Some of our new locations have incredible spaces for shows and we have possible venue space in West Seattle (rooms for 1,000, 300, and 100, plus an industrial kitchen for a restaurant), Ballard (rooms for 1,300 and the current Paradox space for 300), and Wedgwood (a room for 300). We are also searching for a building to buy in Shoreline that could be used for shows in addition to church events.
All of this change in the church also led to a discussion about what to do with The Paradox. Two big questions arose. First, with so many young promoters trying to do all-ages shows, should we just shut down The Paradox and let the other promoters use our various spaces throughout the city? Second, if we do decide to continue doing shows, should we also expand them to our other new locations around the city?
With all of this in mind, we are trying to figure out what the best thing is for us to do in the next season. The problem is that concerts at The Paradox are booked up as much as six months in advance. So, we will finish the concerts that have been booked for the remainder of the year. After that we are putting Paradox concerts on indefinite hiatus while we decide what to do next. Proceeds from the remaining shows will go toward helping one of our most devoted volunteers, Alicia Blake, raise monies to help her spin off and launch her own production company, Make Believe, as an expression of our support and gratitude to her and those working with her. We invited her and other key volunteers to help us determine the future of The Paradox but some of them declined in favor of opening their own company. We have offered to assist them with such things as getting their business license and insurance as we have been the legal entity running the Paradox since we opened it in 1999.
For those who may be concerned, we assure you that we have no intent of trying to turn the Paradox into a Christian club of sorts if in fact we decide to start doing shows again some day. Lastly, we have had nothing but a positive experience with The Paradox. The fans, volunteers, and bands have been very great to work with and we want to express our deep gratitude for the wonderful experience The Paradox has been for us.
Many thanks,
Mars Hill Church
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