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Thursday, September 21, 2006

The Astonishing Resolve of Vegetarians

Posted by on September 21 at 16:29 PM

I have many friends who are vegetarians. I work with quite a few vegetarians. I even made a vegan meal for a dear friend the other night and I understand that there are plenty of healthful and political benefits to being a practicing vegetarian. However, such a diet will never be a feasible option for me; the few times I’ve tried to change my carnivorous ways, I’ve lasted less than 48 hours.

The meal I had last night at Volterra in Ballard was a perfect example of why I’m utterly perplexed by devout vegetarianism. We had wild greens with pork cheeks and chevre, lamb ragu with pepper-studded Sicilian pecorino, and wild boar tenderloin with blue cheese. How can anyone deny these things? To the vegetarians in my midst: your fortitude astounds me. To my fellow carnivores: Get thee to Volterra!


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I feel the same way about slavery, littering and torture: Too enjoyable and indispensable to pass up!

And, above, yet another reason why people aren't vegetarians: hysterical overstatement. Hey Jude: you forgot to mention Hitler. Oh, wait: he was a vegetarian.

sometimes it's sad to eat animals. Especially after going to the fair. Those piggies are so cute. and you know, they use pig skin for human skin grafts, making me think pigs are really close to humans and that we might taste like pork.

Well said FNARF. But, I beleive he was a vegan.

Hannah-what have you done? The Petas and the Vega-nazis are going to start their moralistic onslaught any minute now....

meat is overrated. really, it's just food. big deal.

I know, FNARF, I know so many people who are not vegetarians because of hysterical overstatement. For the record, I wasn't being hysterical; I said it in a very calm manner, with a tone of cold condensension, and with a wierd, crazy kind of gleam in my eye.

Actually, I am just pointing out that if you really think eating meat is wrong, then it is not a matter of feasability or being willing to forgoe the great taste, you just don't do it because it is wrong.

This is not to say it is wrong in some eternal, universal sense, but from a personal standpoint.

Question: can you envision a point (you don't have to want or hope for it, just imagine) in the future when our ancestors look back on eating meat in the same way that we look back on slavery? Are they hysterical nuts?

Meat is soooo yummy!

Never trust anyone that neither eats of meat or drinks of strong spirits. For surely they are moral corrupt and bereft of all sense, happiness and sole.

Instead of ancestors, read "descendants"

Correction: Morally

Just because it tastes good and smells good on a grill isn't good enough reason to eat meat for a lot of people. It's one thing for carnivores to figure the simple fact that meat tastes good as justification for eating it - but it's pretty disrespectful and snarky to make fun of those who disagree with you.

Vegetarians quietly make an environmentally-conscious and healthy decision every time they eat. Why taunt that?

It's nice that you enjoyed your meal, Hannah. But making fun of vegetarians and reveling in your carnivorism is a lot like showing off a big gas-guzzling SUV "because it's so fun to drive". The hybrid-drivers and bicyclists are shaking their heads at your ignorance.

Correction: Soul (and sole I guess... Fish is tasty too)

Well put, Jude.

I wasn't making fun of anyone, Gem.

Vegetarians are fun to ridicule because they lack the protein to defend themselves adequately, and they’re silly, self absorbed sycophantic boobs, oh and they take themselves way too seriously. (Like anyone really believes that what anyone eats is anymore interesting than what they poop.) Vegetarians all need to get real lives, or just go out and shoot themselves so that we don’t have to listen to their preachy-ass bull shit any more.

Choosing not to eat meat is fine and noble, but it's not for everyone, or even most. Many of our bodies do best on a diet that includes meat. I know vegetarians with terrible diets, and I know some who's body's can work with it quite well.

Also, tt's not reasonable to equate killing animals for food with human slavery. Animals can and should (but most often are not) be treated well untill their slaughter. To pretend that choosing vegetarianism is somehow pious is only an invitation for criticism.

Whoa, besides a couple typos, my last post reads kinda creepy.

It never fails to baffle me why anyone gives a shit what anyone else does or does not eat. I haven't eaten red meat in 26 years, for my own personal reasons. Why should anyone else care? I don't run around telling them their dietary choices are peculiar. Well, maybe if they eat headcheese, but other than that, why should I give a shit what they eat? Why should they care what I eat? Why not just, oh, I dunno, mind your own business and not make such a to-do about it? Neither carnivores nor vegans have the Ultimate Answer to Life, The Universe, and Everything. Only dolphins have that.

the part of the vegi-nazi debating points that bothers me is that they say it is a "PERSONAL" belief that they consider is morally wrong to eat meat. They can then tell you that you too should not eat meat because it is "wrong". they forget about the "personal" part so they can be all preachy about it. hey! guess what, I dont want you telling me what to eat, okay? you don't want me telling you what to do in the bedroom or being all preachy about various parts of your life that I don't agree with, but all of a sudden its okay to say what is "wrong" to eat and what isn't?

ps -non preachy vegitarians that just shut up about it, thank you for not imposing your morality on me.

thank you Geni for being a normal person, except for the vegitarian part and the dolphin thing =)


ps-- and you christains (the ones who choose to eat anyways), remember that GOD HATES SHRIMP!!
(godhatesshrimp.com)

=)

I have many vegetarian friends and I love them dearly, and I respect their choices. But they don't get all preachy about it. Comparing eating meat to slavery is nutty. And no, I cannot imagine a point in the distant future when our descendants look back on meat-eating like we do slavery now.

Sadly, I think it's much more likely that they'll look back on us and wonder why we got rid of slavery, but that's a different rant.

At the risk of drawing this out ad infinatum, when it is clear that dialogue is not really taking place, I have to say that the dynamics of this issue always fascinates me, and exhaust me. Since I usually only mention it to other vegetarians, I will through it out into space, here.

Issue: Hannah voices her utter perplexion at the resolve of vegetarians. In my view, this is an invitation for a vegetarian to explain that resolve. OK, some of you could not handle the sarcasm about the whole slavery thing (I threw in the "litter" example hoping it would prevent your knee from jerking but it didn't). In response, meat eaters (used as a descriptive term) response with terms like, "hysterical", "vegiNazi", "preachy ass bull shit", "nutty" and suggestions that they "shoot themselves". (Have they been taking rhetorical lessons from right wing radio hosts?)

What I want to know is, why do you all react so emotionally and strongly? I have a theory that a) no one likes even the idea that someone else thinks they are doing something "immoral", and b) people who interact with vegetarians in the US most likely live in an urban area that is pretty liberal, like Seattle. They are used to feeling pretty comfortable that they are "right" - they don't drive SUVs, vote for republicans, invade Iraq, or prevent gays from marrying. They are in a pretty comfortable place, you know, ethically. I am one of them, of course, because I am a vegetarian, not a vegan. If I were really acting from a consistant moral standpoint, I would be a vegan (a vegan might well argue). And I might feel guilty or annoyed at being judged, or justify that its OK to drink milk because its not comparable to killing the cow, as long as its milked gently. I might even use the terms "hysterical", "vegaNazi", "preachy ass bull shit", "nutty" and suggestions that they "shoot themselves". Then I might feel a bit better about being a vegetarian. Its all bullshit, really. Goodnight and do the right thing out there, people.

Okay, I’ll bite.

Do you realize that you can trace global warming directly to the abolishing of slavery in the United States? Just graph the struggle for black civil rights against global warming trends. The less slavery (more civil rights for blacks) the more global warming. Right up to the current peak corresponding with a black female Secretary of State.

Spooky isn’t it?

Yum meat. Meat Good. Yum.

Don't let Charles see this post. He'll point out that your choice to not eat meat is a character flaw and this post is flaunting your inherent weakness.

I think I can deny pig cheeks pretty easily.

Paulus--Clearly, you haven't had a pig cheek. It makes bacon taste boring.

And getting to what Jude was saying, I really am curious about whether it's truly difficult to abstain for some vegetarians or if it's an easy thing once the decision/commitment has been made. My friend Karl (aforementioned vegan whom I cooked for the other night) has nightmares where he accidentally eats a hamburger.

"Accidentally eat a hamburger"? Like, er, "Jesus Christ I didn't think there'd be meat inside of that thing!", accident?

Anyhow, I guess the nature of most of the posts is consistent with message board prattle, mine's no different. I can however, share that I don't ever really eat pork. I'm not against it, I might have been at one time, I forget, but I just haven't had it in so long I think I lost a taste for it. I imagine their (vegetarians') resolve is similiar.

SOLD!

Maybe I'll smoke a cigar afterwards as well.

I've been a vegetarian for, oh, four years, and, uh, in my experience meat starts to look really, really weird after a while. But sometimes, you know, I kind of miss meatloaf and corned beef hash.

I was a vegetarian for 14 years, including 2 as a vegan. Obviously my resolve to abstain from dairy was harder than meat. Living in Seattle for 8 years finally broke me down on the seafood front (along with no longer believing that eating animals was wrong), but I still don't eat any red meat or fowl. I never really missed it from the day I gave it up. Why is that? Originally it was because I believed I was doing the right thing and that's a pretty strong motivator. By now (17 years on) it's habit. Meat holds no appeal and the options in restaurants are more plentiful than ever. Besides, the best restaurant in Seattle, hands down, is Carmelita.

Fnarf, Hitler wasn't veggie for any of the reasons (health or moral) that normal vegetarians are. It was his kinda remorseful way of dealing with the death of the niece he was screwing, a death he was at least indirectly responsible for. Not that you won't snark about it, that's just your juvinile side...

See, this is what happens when you start a restaurant review by trolling vegetarians. A pissing match occurs and the original intent of the post is completely lost.

What was the name of the restaurant again? Does anyone care?

It involves little fortitude on my part to not eat meat. I've been a vegetarian (no meat, fish or eggs) for 35 of my 45 years, and meat doesn't seem like food to me. I never liked it and don't miss it.

Being vegetarian is a political and health choice for me, but I don't proselytize. Most people have no clue I don't eat meat until we're sharing a meal, and then the majority of meat eaters start sounding like the stereotypes of drug pushers from those educational films in the 60s.

"Come on, just one bite. You know you want to. Aren't you curious what you're missing?"

Why do carnivores care that I don't eat dead things?

I have attempted several times in my life. Vegetarianism, that is. I've gone a week or two without meat. Maybe it was the spaciness from lack of protein, maybe it was the way the textured vegetable protein didn't always agree with the soy sauce in my gastrointestinal system. I dunno. All I know is that I'm psyched to check out Volterra.

Well said, Cam.

I've been vegetarian for almost 10 years and it's never an issue until I'm sharing a meal with meat eaters and they freak.

For me, it's mostly health. I can eat as much as I want on my vegetarian diet and not gain a pound of fat, while gaining 25 pounds of muscle from working out over the last six years.

Not too mention that meat and dairy products are jam packed with steroid hormones, antibiotics, fertility drugs and God knows what else.

But you know, I look at my two sweet dogs and I'm glad I'm veg. They've provided so much love and companionship over the years. They have feelings, thoughts and emotions, and in some countries they'd be lunch. Like their lives don't matter.

Some people on this board brag about their callous attitudes towards animals like it's something to be proud of and showing compassion somehow makes you weak. They wouldn't know an honest emotion if it shot a load down their throats.

Ooh, one of my favorite pointless arguments!

Not all animal products are unhealthy. That's just silly. Not all animal products contain hormones or all that other crap, either. It is possible to be a concientious meat eater. As many or more of the vegetables you consume are covered with pesticides, e coli, or have been genetically modified.

Andrew, the idea that you can eat "as much as you want" on a vegetarian diet and not gain fat is ludicrous. If you take in more calories than you burn, you will gain weight, regardless of the source of those calories.

Eating animals doesn't imply that their lives don't matter. They do matter--they're feeding other animals, like humans for instance. Didn't you see The Lion King?

Humans, biologically, are omnivorous. We also have free will and the ability to reason. So eat what you want and shut up about it.

I know people who feel (bizarrely, to me) strong emotional attachments to their houseplants. So now what, Andrew? Kill em all? Have you no compassion?

Oh, and I almost forgot my favorite tidbit vis-a-vis this tired topic: The number of field mice that are brutally slaughtered in the spinning blades of combines as they harvest all those healthy 100% whole grains. MILLIONS.

Things die, and are eaten by other things. Get over it.

The cow's already dead. My not eating him will not bring the cow back to life. You can argue that my eating piece of said cow motivates the slaughterhouse to kill another cow, but the guy next to me will eat cow no matter if I quit or not.

Sorry. Man has eaten animal for thousands of years and, as long as you do so in moderation, like anything else, there is no valid reason to stop. That's where you get your protein.

Vegetarianism is liberalism taken to it's most ridiculous, simplistic extreme. Vegetarianism is like abstinence - it's all about being ashamed of natural human impulses. Nothing good comes of shame.

Vegetarianism sucks.

PIG CHEEKS.

PIG FUCKING CHEEKS.

Explain to me please why that is supposed to sound remotely appetizing.

I really don't think I would have ever eaten PIG CHEEKS and wild boar in my most carnivorous days.

Hey Sean,

When's the last time you had the natural human impulse to hunt, kill, skin, gut, cut and cook the flesh of a cow, pig or chicken? Where's the shame in abstaining from that? dipshit...

Explain the boom in Pho restaurants. A key ingredient in Pho is tripe, which is an animal's STOMACH LINING.

I was a lacto-ovo vegetarian for two years (Lacto-ovo meaning I ate milk and eggs). I finally went back to being a devoted meat eater after making the following conclusions:


1) Vegetarianism is healthier...in a utopian world. Flawed human beings tend to screw it up.


In our fast-paced society, many vegetarians cut corners and do not get the proper nutrients. I found myself eating the same thing over and over again (read: pasta and fake meat). Another example: a vegetarian friend who eats no beans or milk, and says she gets all her protein from soymilk. I know very little about nutrition, but that massive iron deficiency she suffered later on must've had something to do with her not eating meat. Example two: another friend who spent a summer eating nothing but vegetarian Subway subs (she was doing something related to Forestry near a small town, and that was the only restaurant it had). I don't know how she survived on just vegetables, bread and Lipton iced tea, but whatever. Vegetarians, like everyone else, can be dumbasses. It's only healthier if a person consistently has his or her nutritional shit together, and most people in our society simply don't.


2) Real meat is infinitely better in taste than vegetarian meat. Absolutely nothing beats a steak off the barbecue. Vegetarians, I'm sorry. It's true.


3) I didn't like labelling myself. Maybe in the future I won't eat meat again for awhile. Why should I proclaim that to the world?

Look, eat all the meat and pork cheeks you want. Heres the thing - could you kill, slice and dice that pig yourself? Or how about even just stand and WATCH while its cut up the way it was right before you enjoyed your savory meal. Thats right, watch how its caged up, shot up with hormones, fed crap and fatted up before the kill. Can you do that? if you can , by all means go ahead and chomp right into that pork cheek sandwich. Otherwise you're a fucking hypocrite

I love the taste of meat. That is the main reason I choose to eat meat. Other animals eat meat for survival. I eat meat for pleasure because thankfully it is readilly available. If I were suddenly in a primitive situation where I had to kill and slaughter a pig to stay alive then I would do so. Fortunatlly the vegertarian and vegan friends I have are the level headed variety who just assume and accept the dietary choices of others as I accept theirs. If we go out for a meal together we all just matter of factly eat what ever is ordered. They would never dream of getting in my face for eating meat and I don't get in their face for not eating it.

How did we get to the point where a persons dietary choice is anybody's business? None of us need answer to anybody for what we choose to consume.
I don't like militant vegans or militant meat eaters. But why be militant about what you eat? Just be thankful that you have a choice at all.

my only reason for being vegetarian is environmental. why would you eat a second or third source of energy when you can go straight to the source and eat what your animals eat. it's about efficiency. anyone who thinks there is a moral argument (e.g. animals are people too) is most likely purposefully taking an ignorant stance, because in the end whether you are eating animal or plant life, your still stunting, destroying, and killing a life form.

Vegetarians are prudes.

The reason people care about what others eat is the same reason that we care about whether or not somebody wears a helmet when cycling or biking: because we all pay when that person gets hurt, in the form of higher insurance costs, drains on medical and social services, etc. People who eat meat perpetuate the environmentally harmful conditions (to all of us) that ensue with raising ridiculously high numbers of food animals, even dairy animals. No one needs 12 or 16 ounces of protein at one meal; that should be all the protein you need in one week. So while I see no problem with eating meat, there should be an amount that's reasonable and environmentally sustainable for all of us.

Personally as a Vegetarian, I don't really like to talk about it. Especially with people I barely know. When I go out to eat with meat eaters invariably they have to ask why I am vegetarian. I have no desire to convert them and don't really care what they eat. I also don't really feel the need to explain and justify my personal ethical system to others. Usually its the meat eaters who feel the need to interrogate me as to why I don't eat meat, or how I can eat eggs.

It’s human nature to attack someone who is different or has less power, as demonstrated by the hysterical, logic free tirades on the board.

Vegetarianism is better for our health, the environment, and the animals. Those are the scientific facts. Try Google.

I second Giffy; I never get into it unless it comes up, and it's always the meat-eaters saying "Why are you vegan? What do you eat?" (Seriously, "what do you eat?" is the big one; I get that all the time. I mean, what could one possibly subsist on that didn't come from an animal?) I try to be as vague as possible, so they don't think I'm calling them evil and morally corrupt, but I think just being confronted with a vegan bothers most meat-eaters.

Anyway, to answer Hannah's question: I've been vegan for 10 years and at this point it's totally habit. I don't have cravings for meat or cheese or any of it. I eat the food I eat, and it's delicious.

And, seriously . . . In high school I ate roast beef every day, and I don't think I ever would've eaten something's cheeks. That's just nasty.

Animals eat other animals. It's part of this crazy thing called the food chain.

If you're going to eat meat, it's morally wrong NOT to eat all the parts of the animal. To say "that's just nasty" is to say you should throw that food in the garbage can. Now who's being wasteful and disrespectful of life? Besides, "weird" meat is often the best tasting part. Paté anyone?

Pony Boy, this is true, but humans are the only animal that breeds, feeds, raises, and slaughters entire other species merely for its own consumption. Some of us humans feel a little weird about that. So we remove ourselves from the equation. Gomez, we do make a difference, albeit usually a pretty small one. We know that by choosing not to eat meat, to eat vegetables instead, a chef somewhere reduces her weekly meat order and adds a few blocks of tofu. A grocery store doesn't keep its shelves stocked with as much meat as it would if 100% of the population ate meat. These are the differences we are making. We accept that they are small. But they keep us going, you know?

Anyway, to answer Hannah's question, I think most vegetarians miss some meat, usually one or two random things (most have their "one thing": chicken mcnuggets, or beef jerky, or turkey gravy) in the beginning, when phasing out meat. I haven't eaten meat for the last 18 of my 27 years. I don't miss any of it, and haven't for about 15 years. Meat items on the menu don't even get read. The thought of actually ordering meat and then putting it into my mouth is as foreign to me as the idea of eating broken concrete from the sidewalk.

Last thing - to all of you out there who complain that your vegetarian friends are preachy or give you weird looks when you order that drippy steak, you are hanging out with the wrong people. To make remarks about whats someone else chooses to eat is just poor manners.

I won't eat anything that can't be killed.

Yes, Fnarf, that crossed my mind as I was typing that sentence. I suppose it's better - if people are going to eat meat - to utilize the whole beast. I'm just saying that in my meat-eating days, I held no truck with cheek, brain, tripe, scrapple, etc., and it's funny that Hannah thinks that it's some crazy tempatation to cross back over to the meat-eating side.

Now that I don't eat meat I don't have to worry about it.

hannah-

i always get similar comments from meat-eating friends when they learn that i'm a vegetarian. more often, they look at me and say "i'm so sorry", as if i've just told them that i was born with half a brain or similar.
really, when it comes down to it, i just don't like the way meat tastes. never have. as soon as i became old enough to make my own food decisions, i quit eating it. i don't think eating meat is immoral or any of those other standard vegi-mantras would state.. i just don't like it.

is that too hard to comprehend?

Fnarf,

In answer to your question: I totally agree people who eat meat should have an intimate knowledge of and appreciation for where it comes from and how it goes from being a living animal to a tasty entree. Killing and butchering an animal is a good way to learn.

And in response to your last comment: this is why sausage and hot dogs were invented; to use up all the weird, leftover bits that wouldn't be pallatable otherwise.

I do draw the line, however, at chitterlings and anuses (check out Viet Wah Grocery - I'm not kidding about this!). Some parts of an animal simply should not go into your mouth, is all I'm saying.


Why is it that any time someone has a burger or a steak they have to go into histrionics about (or at least feel the need to mention) vegetarians. Who the hell cares? Just eat it and enjoy it.

Most vegetarians don't make a big deal about being vegetarian. It's the meat-eaters that do.

fnarf, your post is why i like the nuge. he's one of the few carnivores who actually kills his food, cleans it, and basically makes use of every bit. that i respect.

some fois grois eating snob? no respect.


It's all about the environment, folks...

When the meat-eating debate veers into territory concerning personal heath and ethics, we get nowhere. People have their own beliefs. We shouldn't bother arguing over them.

But when the meat-eating debate crosses over into environmental issues, there is no longer much to argue about. The facts are clear. Most of us in the Pacific Northwest wish to protect and care for our beautiful environment, but we can't honestly call ourselves environmentalists if we still eat meat.

Another commenter recommended doing a Google search. I'll second that. Use some key words like "vegetarian" and "environment". You can learn about how much fossil fuel is burned to produce meat. How much water is used. How much erosion is caused. How much forest is slashed and burned to create more acreage for livestock. And then learn about how growing plant matter for consumption is so much better for conservation of our precious resources.

For the record, I am not a vegetarian. I gave up red meat and poultry years ago, but I still eat fish. I really do love the taste, so I can sympathize with some of the folks who say they really like the taste of meat. But everytime I read an article about salmon depletion because of overfishing and hydroelectric dams, I feel as though I really should be more honest with myself about my consumption. By eating fish, and giving money to the companies (and restaurants) that produce it, I am contributing to the destruction of my environment. The same goes for anyone who eats beef or chicken or pork cheeks.

I was vegetarian for two years, vegan for two more years after that, and then gradually started eating meat again.

I didn't find it hard to resist eating meat, or even dairy, honestly...I read some pretty convincing articles and books about mad cow and farming practices in the USA since the 1950s and was pretty grossed out. It was easy. Perfectly good dairy products start to smell rancid after about a month of being vegan. Seriously! It was actually hard to eat meat and dairy again (the smell).

I wish there were more convenient ways to still be a vegan, actually. More restaurants, less societal scorn/weird anger (see above posts), etc. It was never a moral thing, it was always about health for me (bad cholesterol is only found in animal products, mad cow disease). And nobody ever mentions that it's way cheaper to eat rice, beans, and veggies. However, I got an allergy test done and found out I am actually ALLERGIC TO SOY. Which was pretty funny. And I was tired of always being the "difficult guest" who people felt obligated to make a special meal for, tired of having to choose salad every time I ate on the run (often). I can afford organic, antibiotic and hormone-free. But I still often prefer a well-made vegetarian or vegan meal.

I don't think vegetarians have trouble not eating a delicious lamb shank. Some would be actively grossed out by it, some, like me, can just do without it if they decide to, but happily enjoy it if they decide to eat meat again. A lamb shank sounds pretty good right now, actually...I like the one at La Rustica!

If you can kill it then go ahead and eat it. But if you can't kill a cow/pig/duck/chicken then what are you doing eating them? I killed two ducks once and ate them. And that day was the end of my meat-eating days. Meat is foul.

Frankly, in my experience it's more often the vegetarian who flips out than the carnivore.

For example, a couple of weeks ago I had several friends over for dinner. One of them brought his girlfriend, who happened to be vegetarian. Never having met her before, I wasn't aware of it and her boyfriend neglected to tell me, so the dinner I made had meat in it.

I apologized to her (even though I think it ought to be her responsibility to make sure her host knows she can't eat certain things, just like someone with food allergies) and offered to make her some pasta, thus allowing her to eat the salad with us, and pasta when we had our main course.

Except she gets angry and starts lecturing me about how I shouldn't just automatically expect everyone to share my tastes. Wasn't I aware that many vegetarians found the sight and smell of meat disgusting? And on and on and on.

Now, this is clearly an extreme example. But 90% of the time when I'm eating with carnivores and vegetarians, it's the vegetarian who's the first one to say 'ew, I can't believe you're eating that.'

This isn't to say all vegetarians do this. Far from it-- none of my vegetarian friends do, except jokingly now and then, and in terms of the general population, I expect that 95% of vegetarians are totally relaxed about it. But those other 5% are rabid and completely insane about the meat issue, and that drives carnivores up the wall, and makes us wary of vegetarians in general.


I'd also like to add that while a vegetarian diet can be much healthier than a carnivorous one, it is not inherently so. Some necessary nutrients are pretty hard to get from a vegetarian diet (not to mention a vegan one), and the simple fact is, our bodies are adapted, after many thousands of years, to eating meat.

People who feel they have the right to tell other people their food choices are somehow incorrect are mannerless pigs, particularly when they are dinner guests, like Megan's clueless guest. Yes, it's disconcerting to realize that I forgot to tell a host that I don't eat red meat, and then find that dinner consists of roast beef. When that happens, I take an extra serving of vegetables, and otherwise keep my big mouth shut.

But I agree with those who say that, in my experience, it's been the carnivores that want to convince me to change MY eating habits - however, obviously, there's no reason for a vegetarian - other than a militant vegan - to preach at ME. And there's no reason for a carnivore to preach at another carnivore. You don't proselytize to the converted.

Either way, I wish to hell that EVERYONE would develop some goddam manners, and learn to mind their own fucking business about what other people do or do not eat. And Hannah, you started this, by even mentioning vegetarians, which really seems like trolling.

My own reasons for not eating red meat started out as environmental; I did not like the practice of free-ranging cattle, and a great deal of the beef supply in this country at that time was free-ranged. I found that environmentally unsupportable. Health and fuzzy-wuzzy issues take a back seat to that reason. However, by now, it's been so many years that when I do take a small bite of something, once every few years, it truly tastes like chewing on shoe leather. Meat is really chewy, once you're unused to it. And it smells funny to me. But if you want to eat it, knock yourself out - just don't act like I am automatically some kind of granola flowerhead because I don't.

Frankly, we should all just be damned grateful we have an abundance of ANY food. Most of the world doesn't have that luxury.

I drive my hybrid car to shop at Whole Foods. All the food there is sustainable and organic so no matter what I eat I'm saving the world. If everyone would just shop at Whole Foods and drive hybrid cars there'd be no global warming.

Fre-ranging cattle is in fact the ONLY ecologically sensitive way to maintain the grasses that make up the Great Plains. Those grasses require both the periodic cut-down by ruminant teeth and the periodic dropping of cowpats to thrive or even survive. Bison are nothing but free-ranging cattle, and the plains evolved to grow symbiotically with them.

I'm guessing that what you meant was was offensive to you was grain-feeding cattle in intensive feedlots, where they are crammed into tiny pens and fed a mixture of feed corn, beef tallow and antibiotics, standing up to their tits in their own excrement, which is the usual routine with US beef these days, towards the end at least.

I heartily concur with the call to manners. I myself rarely have any trouble with the easygoing vegetarians in my life, though I do sometimes catch them weeping silently when there's the smell of frying bacon in the air.

Volterra is my favorite! Try the thinly pounded veal medallions sauteed with locally harvested Morel Mushrooms and Marsala sauce; served with organic fingerling potatoes and seasonal market vegetables.


The food is perfect. Anyone who won't spend $50 on a meal every week, simply doesn't know how to live.

Thanks, Josh.

Megan: I think you did the exact right thing, and a good guest would have politely accepted your offer. As a vegetarian I usually try to tell people in advance, and then offer to bring a vegetarian dish everyone can enjoy. If I don't then I politely explain why I am not eating the meat products and subsist on what is available. It's just good manners. I would not dream of lecturing the host on what is served or making a scene. I am in the minority and do not expect everyone to cater to me.

I also agree that there is no inherent health effects form not eating mat. For example one could eat a diet consisting only of large amounts olive oil, cheese and wine, be vegetarian and likely weigh 500 pounds. Likewise a meat eater could eat a balanced diet and be healthy.

Reciprocally, even though I'm an enthusiastic omnivore, I do try to be sensitive to the choices of my vegetarian/vegan friends. Generally, if I'm asked to bring "something to share" for a social gathering, I will almost always prepare a vegan dish. I like to cook, and I like people to enjoy what I cook, and I don't like the idea that, for whatever reason, everybody at a party wouldn't be able to enjoy what I cook.

Then, I'll slap a big ole' steak on the grill - just for myself of course!

Gomez, we do make a difference, albeit usually a pretty small one. We know that by choosing not to eat meat, to eat vegetables instead, a chef somewhere reduces her weekly meat order and adds a few blocks of tofu.

Gem, I laughed when I read that. That's like saying a sneeze causes hurricanes via chain reaction. Yeah, maybe, but you're talking wormhole odds.

And you think BBQ and burger joints are gonna order tofu over meat because of a few converted vegetarians? Silly.

Damn, Gomez, that's pretty narrow-minded. Okay, first, vegetarians really don't concern themselves with BBQ and burger joints. We don't support them with our money either.

Second, I figure in a city like Seattle, about 5-10% of the population considers itself some form of vegetarian. Would that be accurate? Would you agree that one in every 10-20 people you meet is a vegetarian? I'm probably even lowballing these odds, but I want you to see what I'm saying here. So let's say, for the sake of argument, that 5-10% of people in our city are vegetarians.

That's a lot of meat not eaten.

And it's not like this meat that is not eaten is sitting on a shelf somewhere, rotting because us vegetarians aren't buying it. A 5-10% drop in demand for meat would require any good store or restaurant manager to adjust its order accordingly. Would you agree?

Therefore, less meat is being ordered from suppliers. Fewer animals are raised for slaughter.

Still think I'm crazy? Okay, let me put it this way. How many people do you know who use chewing tobacco? I don't know any. But still, I'm going to estimate heavy here for the sake of argument and say 10% of people in Seattle use chewing tobacco. 1 in 10 people. Not a whole lot of people, right? But still a big enough market force that you find it behind the counter of every convenience store you enter. The same market force that puts chewing tobacco ON these shelves is the one that takes meat OFF the shelves when a small part of the population chooses not to use it. Invisible hand, yo. Adam Smith. Read about that.

You totally lose this argument.

--Gem
(I can't believe I'm still checking this thread)

I'm vegan because it's Kosher. I like vegan restaurants because I don't have to worry about meat being cooked with dairy. Keeping Kosher is an important part of my religion. Seattle is lucky to have so many great restaurants where Observant Jews can enjoy gourmet meals.

No, actually, Gem, that's just you exaggerating what is merely a minimal impact event. One person cannot get a restaurant to change its menu. You're out of your mind, at best, if you think so.

the point isn't that restaurants change their menus, it's that less meat is consumed... oh, never mind. i won't argue with ignorance.

Igonrance, HA. You project with that comment. I don't even know where you're going with that.

Meat that is not consumed by me will either be consumed by someone else, or rot. Every cow that gets the cleaver produces many, many pounds of meat. It would take a mass weaning of people from meat to spare a single cow... and these are cows who are bred to be slaughtered for meat anyway. They probably don't get spared.

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