Erica your comparison of CIA techniques with the Dachau concentration camp is disgusting.

As I Jew I'm fed up with Mel Gibson types in the press comparing Israel to the Nazis and calling Gaza the world's largest concentration camp.

Islamo-Fucks are terrorists. Whatever you have to do to them to get information out of them is moral because it saves lives. So what if some islamo-fuck has to stand on his feet for a few hours to make him talk? Cry me a river.

Also has it ever occured to you that finally there's some payback for what the world did to the Jews in WWII? Jews were being tortured and killed and America did nothing. So I could care less if a few islamo-fucks die of torture. What goes around comes around. Shalom.

Won't even bother responding to Josh's nonsensical rant.

Torture does not yield reliable information...people will say anything to stop the torture. Thus it isn't helpful. Duh. Why is this even a debate?

But it works on 24!!!!

No matter what they say, Americans don't torture. It's too bad we have some un-American slime in the Red House right now.

actually the description of the hypothermia technique went as follows: room temp kept near freezing, "detainee" kept naked, is periodically doused with water, and subjected random blasts of loud noises and/or bright lights.

i only mention in case someone wanted to try to argue that being naked in a cold room doesn't so bad.

Every real intel and counter-terrorist expert in the world will tell you the same thing: everyone confesses under torture eventually, and confessions gained through torture are useless. People will confess to ANYTHING under torture. I was part of the Manson Family! I ate Jon-Benet's liver with fava beans! Al-Qaida married my aunt! I have the secret of wormhole technology! Just make it STOP!

They're getting pressure from on high to get confessions. Whether or not the confessions lead to anything useful is apparently not regarded as important; what's being emphasized is sheer number of confessions, as if they were on some idiotic quota system.

I'm no defender of terrorists, whether they wear suits or checkered headcloths, but the simple fact is that torture is not a useful intelligence technique. And violating the Geneva Convention puts our own troops at grave risk.

I for one wish that the Cheney Administration would stop giving us reason to compare them with Nazis. It leads to an immediate halt of rational debate and everyone gets all emotional.
But they just. won't. quit. Dumkoffs.

It's only a matter of time before they start torturing people here in the US. This is how it started in Germany: Find a group to blame for the nation's problems, tell the people they're being attacked, accuse the opposition of a lack of patriotism and endangering the nation -it works the same in any country.
This will escalate if it continues, and we're no better than the terrorists if we use torture.
Our beloved troops have already shown that they are amoral and will torture and murder anyone, even children, because they're "following orders."

One of the reasons the war on the Philippines became controversial over 100 years ago was because the US was using water torture in its counterinsurgency campaigns. Not that the Nazi comparrisons aren't useful. But the US has its own long tradition of using torture, at home and abroad, especially on Indians, in the Jim Crow south, and in 20th century Latin America.

Speaking of which, "they" already/ still do torture people in the US. Here's the most recent public example:

http://humanrights.uchicago.edu/chicagotorture/

I think we ought to subject everyone's favorite Zionist Josh to this treatment and see if he thinks it's still moral (bonus - we can also see how long it takes him to call this 1/2 Jewish guy anti-Semitic for calling him on his militant pro-torture Zionism).

Comparing the torture techniques of America and Israel to Nazis is disgusting and anti-semitic.

The Jews at Dachau were innocent victims. Islamo-terrorist want to kill us and therefore have lost all their human rights.

Josh, thats the exact leap that the nazis got the german people to make: [the jews] are not deserving of human rights, therefore it isn't immoral to deny them humane treatment. the last step is to say they're not even really human, at which point you can do anything to them. Thats the leap that the "islamo-terrorists" have already made as evidenced by their bombing of "innocent" civilians (i use quotes because to the terrorists they aren't innocent and therefore their deaths can be morally justified). the "terrorists" don't view their victims as human (they're infidels).

the very fact that we (the american public) have not yet made the leap to deny human rights to our enemies is all that stands between us and them. it seems like you've already made that leap, but hopefully enough americans won't follow you and the political process can put a stop to this madness.

you realize, of course, that the only reason bush is being so adamant about changing the law is because as it stands many in the current government are probably susceptable to prosecution for war crimes, and if bush doesn't get the law changed now and the dems win partial or full control of the congress its likely that we could actually see prosecutions.

make no mistake, bush doesn't want to change the law to protect the american people. he's looking out for his own, and he's right to be scared.

Isn't it clear Josh is joking? I mean...

Please, PLEASE don't feed the troll.

Andrew Sullivan has been putting up some very similar quotes from Solzhenitsyn's The Gulag Archipelago lately. The Gulag is a more apt comparison than the Nazi camps; we are not trying to exterminate a race, but we ARE trying to "reeducate", i.e., destroy the personalities of, the detainees. It doesn't have jack-all to do with information.

Besides, it's pretty clear that Bush's torture corps are completely unfamiliar with the very concept of information, never having seen any.

Why do you all hate America so much?

Sometimes I think humanity has lost all its human rights. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/world/americas/19canada.html?ex=1158811200&en=872e470b6a7ef82e&ei=5070

We should be careful not to condemn the entire military; a strong, wise soldier would disobey an order to torture. A weak-minded sadistic soldier will take an opportunity to torture, orders or not. A CIA agent... we have no fucking clue what they're up to. So it seems that torture at the hands of government agencies happens now and then - hopefully in this age of true mass communication, when any schmo like me can post something for the world to see, this scourge will be wiped out once and for all before too long.

There is a Canadian man in today's news who was mistakenly put on a U.S. terror watch list. He made the mistake of coming to NY in transit, and was immediately arrested, sent to Syria, and tortured for more than a year before being released.

Is he one of your Islamo-fucks Josh? Is he one of the people that the U.S. can morally torture? How about the untold number of people in a similar situation? Torture is inhuman and is never justified. Never. Don't you dare call yourself a moral person and advocate abuse like this.

By the way, I don't believe that "Josh" is a real person. In all likelihood there are 3 or 4 people calling themselves "Josh" who are posting tripe to the Slog to get the rest of us stirred up. But there are thousands and thousands of people who believe the things that Josh says, and who need to be loudly and forcefully challenged at every opportunity. This is becoming disgusting, and our entire society is about to become tarred with the brush of complicity, much like how all the Germans are now stained with the blood of the Holocaust.

Jude, you overestimate the chances of people having moral strength. Dismissing the troll's attitude entirely is more dangerous than feeding the troll - we can't forget that there are many people in the world, I fear a majority, who don't truly understand the concept of human rights and would disregard them without a second thought in a difficult situation.

Oh, and by the way, don't be surprised if Halliburton and friends have already been awarded a gigantic no-bid contract to build detention camps here in the US.

Just because you don't agree doesn't make someone a troll. After 9/11 Dan Savage wrote we should "light their Arab asses on fire and toss them off a building". Sounds like torture to me.

Think hard about this Seattle - Jews in Dachau were innocent. Islamo-terrorists want to kill us. Therefore anything we do to these terror-fucks to get information out of them is moral. Please study Torah. Defending yourself and your country is always moral.

Josh,

You fascist enabling little fuck - a goodly portion of the people were holding incommunicado aren't guilty of anything.

Why do you hate America?

Oh Josh,

The Republicans already have such a long list of people to be sent to the detention camps for torture: Environmentalists, peace activists, librarians, Negroes, homosexuals, Jews (don't think the Evangelicals are going to let you get away!), Muslims, affordable housing advocates, scientists, atheists...

Where will they find the time?

As a retarded homosexual gypsy I object to Josh implying that only Jews can be offended by comparisons to the third reich. Shame on you!

America and Israel are torturing islamo-terrorists. Period.

Israel is the most gay positive country in the Middle East with a stong environmental record.

If you people want to defend terror-fucks fine. But stop comparing the way Israel and America tortures islamo-fucks to what the Nazis did to Jews. It's anti-semitic.

Torture doesn't work. Period. It yield inaccurate information that impedes effective investigation.

The only people who support torture are sadists who get off on hurting others or terrorist lovers who want to hamper the war on terror.

So which one are you, Josh - Sadist or Terrorist-lover?

Hmm, rounding up innocent people, making them disappear without contact with the outside world and torturing them for years, sometimes to death. Actually, that's exactly what the Nazis and the Stalinists did. It's not counterterrorism - it is terrorism. Israel and the US have joined the club!

This may be news to all of the Joshes on the board, but we've violated our own Constitution and International Law, not to mention our alleged morals and human decency.

If that is who were are as a society, then we're the same as the terrorists.

To say Israel and the US have done what Nazis and the Stalinists did. Is anti-semitic. You're being irrational and racist.

...and you have demonstrated the logical ability and reading comprehension of a five year old.

Go fuck your facsist enabling self, Josh (and no, saying that doesn't make me anti-semitic).

Uh, Joshes, exactly how does objecting to the murder and torture of innocent people make someone an anti-semite? I simply reject your ideas due to their extreme offense against all of humanity.
All the guns and bombs and torture in the world are not going stop terrorism. We will only stop it by analyzing its causes and providing remedies and peaceful solutions. The alternative is endless war; how's that working out for you?

My Jewish mother taught me to honor Israel and speak well of her. Israel may violate international law, but the United Nations is not Torah.

Please stop comparing Israel to the Nazis. It's anti-semitic.

Joshes and Shoshana,

Just want to make it perfectly clear:

Since you feel your religious beliefs give you the right to torture and murder innocent men, women and children, you are, in fact, the same as the so-called terrorists who want to kill us infidels.

It's people like you that will be the death of us all.

Nicely said, Andrew (of course, in the bizarro world these nuts live in, it makes you an anti-Semite, but...)

Islamo-terrorists are not innocent men, women, and children. They believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist. The Torah clearly says God gave Israel to all Jews. It's said that for thousands of years. The Torah never says "thou shalt not kill" it says "thou shalt not murder". Jews are allowed to kill people as long as they don't murder them. So killing islamo-fucks is no problem.

If you people want to defend islamo-fucks go ahead. But stop saying Israel has become like the Nazis. It's anti-semitic.

Joshes,
People say that America has ventured into fascist territory because, like it or not, the comparison is apt. Shout and scream about anti-semitism all you want, but if you're invading countries without provacation, taking away people in the dead of night and interning them indefinitely, and torturing political prisoners...the shoe fits. You gotta wear it.

Israel is not a fascist country. It's the only democracy in the Middle East. Anti-semites have been comparing Israel to the Nazis for years. Nothing new there.

To the Joshes-

I wonder if your comfortable with captured American soldiers being "interrogated" in this way. If we do it to others, we can't bitch when they do it to us.