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Thursday, August 31, 2006

More, Please

Posted by on August 31 at 11:02 AM

Having lived in New York, I think this is great. Want to own a place in Belltown for under $150K? Then get used to living the way people in big cities live…

The moda condos, set to break ground in October, promise “New York-style living,” with units as small as 296 square feet that start at $149,950.

Here’s the floor-plan, via the P-I:

Studio_layout-color.gif

But density boosters, take note: What makes a place like this livable is not just a change in attitudes about how much space a person needs. Tiny condos (and apartments) are most livable when they exist in a city with lots of places to go out to—a city with a vibrant night-life, great parks, good public transportation, cheap restaurants, etc.

In New York and other big, dense cities with expensive real estate, people live in tiny apartments and condos without much trouble because they’re almost never home—they’re at bars, they’re biking along the Hudson River (along a bike path whose speedy completion puts Seattle’s endless bike-friendliness planning process to shame), they’re on the subway to grab Korean food across town, they’re scamming their way onto the list at some club or party.

So yes, Seattle, bring on the “New York-style living.” But make sure it doesn’t end at the doors of our 296-square-foot condos.


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I'd buy one. It's all I'd need.

300 square feet is palatial compared to my New York apartment.

With a washer/dryer and a parking space included, I'd buy one too. But I bet they'll be very popular anyway and there will be a huge waiting list.

Eli is totally right about the needed amenities to make this work. I'd add to the list libraries with reasonable hours, cheap diner-style food, shops, good corner shops (can't have a huge pantry) and restaurants open later than 9pm.

Will there be parking? In NYC dwellers in small boxes tend not to drive. Ditto for the grenier dwellers in Paris. What about here? Everyone drives almsot everywhere. People get in their cars to travel six blocks to a wharehouse sized grocery store. There are no local produce stands, not butchers, no bakers, no bread shops, no cheese shops, no ethnic groceries, no nada.
NYC? I knew NYC. NYC was a friend of mine, and you Seattle, are no NYC.

Uh... you can walk to Pike Place Market from Belltown. And there are bakers in Belltown.

I agree we're no NYC, but a lot of street-level retail has gone into Belltown, and you can live there and walk places and get groceries and bread and cheese and wine and, uh, laid.

If it's going to work anywhere in Seattle, Belltown and perhaps 1st/cap hill do seem the likely choices. There is also probably some chicken-or-the-egg going on here. If many

As far as in-unit W&D, probably not going to happen in a tiny studio.

Pike Place Market is a ghost town at 7pm.

A place like that is just big enough to store my bike and all my clothes.

While I'd live somewhere else.

I like the idea of utility and efficiency housing. I don't like the idea of $503 per square foot. It is substaintial markup over existing going rates. With no money down a 30 year mortgage on $149,000 would be about $920 a month. You could get a decent sized place in Belltown for that much or less.
Do some math and look at it again.

And when the Market is open, it takes hand-to-hand combat to get anywhere near the actual goods for sale past all the XXXL slackjawed mapreading cruise ship passengers.

When the Whole Foods opens, there will be one really, really expensive proper supermarket downtown. But still, decent delis and cheap Chinese, Cuban, Mexican, Vietnamese, and Ukrainian joints are pretty thin on the ground. Unless you think Mama's is a Mexican restaurant.

This is why Belltown will never really happen as a living neighborhood for non-trendoid people: the rents are too high. Not the apartment rents, which are cheap, but the storefront rents. And the storefronts in these modern mixed use buildings are unsuitable for most establishments besides real estate offices and sandwich/espresso counters. They're way too shallow.

Golob nailed it on the head with the chicken-or-the-egg problem. If we had 10 of these projects (meaning an additional 2,500 homes) we might start getting close to the critical mass necessary to get the City and developers to adjust priorities enough to encourage the types of services that these new residents need.

For a real laugh, check out the "Sound Off" board for the PI article in which dozens of (no doubt suburban) residents register their "disgust" with this type of development.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/soundoff/comment.asp?articleID=283265

Sometimes I wonder if there is any hope for this city...

Dense urban living means vibrant nightlife, an interesting art scene, and great restaurants. More density will pack in more people and we can all easily afford a New York style condo in Belltown.

You'd think there'd be a decent bakery on Capitol Hill, but there isn't. Build it and they won't necessarily come.

Zander I ain't no expert but...
It seems to me you never get a great deal buying small. A house is cheaper in sq. feet than most condos. The issues for city dwellers are: out of pocket cost, ownership and location.
There will be a demand for these places and they'll build more. It's good for the city and the consumer.

Zander -

You need to get out more. The going rate for downtown condos is about $800 per square foot. Granted, this number is skewed by some super-luxury multi-million condos (the custom units at the 4 seasons by the Lusty Lady averaged $2,100 per foot) - but finding anything at $500 (especially something this small) is tough to do.

There were a number of things that I couldn't stand about New York when I lived there. The two most important were the lack of private space (such as a decent apartment where I could unwind) and the hordes of people at every public space in the city. There was never any place, indoors or out, to get away from others. These two problems were made considerably worse by the stress of living in that city and the obnoxious attitude of many New Yorkers.

I support increased density, but if Seattle becomes anything like New York, I'm moving.

This give folks, who wouldn't normally be able to afford to buy, the oppurtunity to stake their claim. This means building equity and having a great investment while living the urban lifestyle. I think it's a great idea.

Umm... I'm confused. I just moved from a slightly smaller studio than that on First Hill. Most of my friends live in small studios on Capitol Hill. How is this news? Just because, instead of $600 rent, it's a $900 mortgage?
But I agree with all of you. It's hard to do the city-style living thing without small grocers (cheap) on every corner, fruit stands, variety stores, delis, restaurants, etc.
The main problem with Seattle is that we try to make everything the best. Instead of increasing the number of buses, routes, and frequency, we get hybrid buses with free wifi. Instead of lots of little parks within walking distance, we have the new scuplture park. It's part of the car culture in the country. Instead of small grocers on every corner, we have humungoid Walmarts (that you have to drive to). When it comes to dense, urban living, I'm sad to say that quantity is way more valuable than quality.

Isn't that one of the most amazing things on Manhatttan; within a few blocks of anywhere there is just about everything one would need. Groceries? Dry cleaning and laundry? Cheap restaurant food? Bread? It may not be the best, but it is right there. In daily living, there is a huge difference between walking 10 blocks (Belltown to the Pikes Place Market) or just down to the corner...

Perhaps the real question to ask about these developments is for how much is the street-level retail going to rent?

Lived in Belltown for 3 years, owned a small 669 sqft condo at 81 Vine and ate at Macrina practically every morning because I'm an indulgent fatso. One challenge not noted is many of these properties will get snapped up by the investment class and become rentals or 'city homes.' My little condo is now a richy rich Bainbridge Island couple's pied de terre. In hindsight, I wish I would have held out for somebody who 'deserved' my place. Also, it's funny to read posts from people who haven't lived downtown worrying about services for Belltown yuppies. Believe me, we were doing just fine when I was there.

"How is this news? Just because, instead of $600 rent, it's a $900 mortgage?"

As someone mentioned earlier, you are investing your money and gaining equity instead of flushing it down the toilet on rent. And as someone mentioned, you can eventually sell it for a nice profit to an older couple, for example, looking for a small retirement pad.

Anyone who rents is an idiot. These condos take away any excuse for renters, there's no reason to flush your money down the toilet with these new condos.


This will make Seattle like New York. A lot of my friends are considering moving out here.

Love it. When something similar is available on the Hill and the units cost $120k, I'm THERE.

Yeah, with a typical mortgage you'll be racking up a whopping eight dollars of equity a month with the rest going to interest. Still better than renting, but.

Hey Fnarf:

They don't care. They'll flock like lemmings, and put up with every hassle known to humanity, just to be "vibrant."

I'll grant that this is a lot closer to "affordable" than much of what is cited as such. That said, I wouldn't pay that much for that little, but some folks will I'm sure...

Of course, the poster above noted that suburbanites filled up the PI sound off column are having none of it. Some of you Slog posters might consider that the next time you say building baby condos in Belltown will somehow keep people from moving to the 'burbs...

(1) Looks like a W/D is in the closet of the bathroom - so a washer/dryer (if it's full-sized) in one of these studio apartments seems quite a possbility.

(2) When on Earth was the last time you saw $600/mo for an apartment in Belltown?

(3) My very happy apartment building in Belltown went condo in 1996 and all of my good friends and friendly neighbors and some of the fun, commercial tenants in the building were dispersed into the winds of homelessness because most chose not to buy for whatever reason. We were displaced primarily by investment buyers and the dot com nouveau riche who either rented their condos out to a parade of different renters or lived there in self-contained silence - hardly ever speaking to or knowing their neighbors. Progress?

(4) You can get some of the things you need in Belltown if you have that kind of disposible income, but you still have to schlep up to Queen Anne or over to Capitol Hill to do real grocery shopping. There are small markets here and there for rather pricey frozen items and sundries, but if you want to save a little money on, say, laundry detergent and bleach, you'll be looking for a QFC or Safeway in another neighborhood. And walking to Pike Place Market to get fish and vegetables? OK every now and then, but it gets old and you wind up not doing it as much as you thought you would. Belltown used to be so fun and unique. Remember My Suzy's Oriental Lounge and the Saturday night crab feed? The original Septieme? I think Dan actually served me once. Belltown really has lost its charm IMHO.

oh...
(5) With a studio this small, you have to give up on the notion of collecting anything....CDs, for instance. You get to a point where when something new comes in, something old has to go out. Some people can live that way. I can't.

Like most of the rest of you, I like the concept. But in addition to lack of "practical" shops, 2 additional reasons I won't live there:


A) What are the Homeowners dues and property taxes for this apartment? I'm guessing a few hundred bucks a month, so add that to your mortgage and you're now paying double what you'd pay for rent.


and
B) While I'd be perfectly happy living in a studio, I live with my partner and 2 people would be cramped. Although, this may be a self-remedying problem, as space constraints would cause relationship tension, and I'd have a 1-person condo.

Eli, you seriously think asking $150K for a tiny bedroom with a bathroom and kitchen space is good growth?

Just because NYC does it doesn't mean it's good. I'd feel more like a prisoner than a homeowner living in that space, and there are a few hundred thousand Seattlites that'd fully agree with me.

Also, someone else brought up the point: how the hell is someone supposed to consummate a relationship or raise a family in a space like this?

The only way it works is for your scenario: a single person fully obsessed with a high dollar on-location consumer culture. Not everyone lives like that.

I say use the vertical space of urban centers instead of cutting down trees and clearing land for suburban homes and sprawl.

I'm all for it for these tiny condos.

"Yeah, with a typical mortgage you'll be racking up a whopping eight dollars of equity a month with the rest going to interest. Still better than renting, but."

Eight dollars a month on equity? You're clueless when it comes to real estate.

Zed,

I think it's cool that someone has come up with a housing unit people can buy downtonwn for 150k, but those tiny condos won't appeal to people who are buying the suburban homes you cite - they just won't.

You're right Mr. X. My point is off the topic.

Whatever happened to 2-br cottages or duplexes? Did they all go extinct in the 70s?

Is it wise to build up your downtown based on the whims of the jet set?

People complain about urban sprawl; but where can you go if you have two kids if your city refuses to build affordable housing for families? Nowhere but out from the center...

Utter sardine madness.

People have lost all sense of the value of money.

Work your life away to buy a closet. Developers really have you people right where they want you.

"Bring on the 'New York Style Living?'" Shame on you, Stranger. Shame.

while we are sitting and writing, these tiny units are selling out. When they are finally completed in 2008 it is likely the people who are buying today will be able to turn a nice profit by selling even before the first mortgage payment is paid. There is nothing else like it and while it is not for everyone, that is all the space some need.

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