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Monday, July 24, 2006

The Times Misleads on Smart Growth

Posted by on July 24 at 12:15 PM

Eric Pryne’s story in Sunday’s Seattle Times, headlined “Despite planners’ best efforts, many people choose the commute,” sounds like bad news for pro-density Smart Growthers who want to encourage people to live where they work through planning, zoning and transportation decisions. Pryne’s story makes the case that long commutes—from Auburn to Enumclaw, for example, or from Federal Way to Redmond—are becoming the norm because of personal choice, not because of poor city and transportation planning. (The conventional wisdom among Smart Growth supporters is that providing reliable, frequent transportation to the places people want to go and clustering jobs and housing in the same location will lead people to live and work in compact neighborhoods.) People frequently take jobs far away from home (and vice versa), Pryne argues, because of “personal preferences that are stronger than any aversion to longer commutes.”

One insurance agent who lives in Tacoma and drives every day to Enumclaw, Pryne writes,

says he considered moving when he got the job in Enumclaw, but uprooting his family was too big a price to pay.

“It would just upset a lot of the kids’ routines,” Griffiths says. “The only reason to move would be to reduce my commute time.”

Another Enumclaw worker drives one hour each way, or about 450 miles a week, from Fremont, because he and his wife “just like the neighborhood.”

Pryne’s smug conclusion: “People don’t necessarily do what planners think they will.”

But wait a minute. Buried elsewhere in the story is an important point:

The geographic divide between home and work is most pronounced in bedroom communities where there simply aren’t many jobs.

Six of seven working residents of Sammamish, 10 of 11 working residents of Mountlake Terrace and 11 of 12 working residents of Newcastle commute to jobs elsewhere.

In other words, living in the suburbs typically means driving a long way to work.

And check out the graphic that runs with the story. Areas that are orange have higher percentages of people who live where they work; areas that are green have lower percentages. Because the map only takes into account geographical area, not population per area (i.e. density) it looks like an awful lot of the Puget Sound region is made up of long-distance commuters. However, if you consider which areas have most of the region’s population, the picture grows considerably less grim: Seattle, Tacoma, Bellevue, and Redmond all have higher percentages of people living and working in the same community than outlying suburbs like Arlington, Black Diamond, and Maple Valley. And the densest community of all, Seattle, also has the highest percentage of people who both live and work there. The real conclusion of Pryne’s story, then, should be this: Sprawl doesn’t work. Density does.


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I agree with ECB that generalizing about personal preferences regarding where people live vs. where they work based on a few interviews almost surely will lead to incorrect conclusions. Human behavior is, and habits are, way too variable. One thing I would take from the article is that by far the most typical commute is not one from downtown Bellevue to or from downtown Seattle. That is the big problem with sinking so much money into a fixed rail system (read: ultimately inflexible). Trying to force density because a transportation mode choice already has been made almost certainly will fail. Not many successful centralized social-engineering programs like that spring to mind.

Sprawl is affordable. Density is not.

Density, density, density. People want to live in vibrant, dense urban centers. The wealthy are flocking to cities for the lifestyle. The Times does not understand this but many readers of The Times might be working class suburban types that don't have the education to understand what city living is all about. The poor and uneducated will remain in the suburbs anyway and only come into the city to clean condos or serve espresso. Many poor people don't mind riding the bus to work.

Isn't the problem, though, that the economy (jobs) are so de-centralized, and people change jobs so frequently, that people wind up living far away from work. If almost all the jobs were in downtown Seattle, it would make so much more sense in terms of transportation, etc.

Yeah, he found the ONE GUY in all of Fremont who drives to the Sticks to work. Next Sunday in the Times: "The neo-cons of Wallingford."

I walk to work in Wallingford from Fremont. When I'm not taking a bus for an early morning seminar at the UWMC.

More power to 'em on the 2-time-a-day, 5-day-a-week rush hour drive into and out of town. What a fucking travesty. I don't know how people handle it. I feel horror plated with admiration. Head in hands is best position to feel feeling.

If planners truly want people to move closer to work, they'd better do a bit more pro-actively to make housing affordable. I live in Auburn and work in Burien. I'd love to live somewhere between West Seattle and Des Moines instead, but I can't afford to. I know, I've been looking at houses. With the housing market we've got right now, what I'll get for my property in Auburn won't buy me a house in those areas. And those are some of the cheapest areas left in King County!

People who aren't made of money and who don't stand to inherit any are being squeezed out of the urban area and forced into longer commutes. (And no, I can't simply quit my job and find an equivalent in Auburn. I'd love to, but I don't flip burgers for a living.)

The conventional wisdom among Smart Growth supporters is that providing reliable, frequent transportation to the places people want to go and clustering jobs and housing in the same location will lead people to live and work in compact neighborhoods

Question for smart growth proponents. I lived in a large metro area for six years and four employers. Layoffs happen and companies go out of business.

Is the intention, then, for Joe Smart-Growth to pick up and move to follow his job? Stay in the hood and wait for his neighborhood widget factory to come back to life? Neither option seems very attractive.

Economic dislocation happens - how does Smart Growth handle that?

Even in the face of facts you continue to preach the same talking points.

Even if you manage growth and transit and whatever else... citizens still have a choice where they want to live. And you cannot guarantee that they will choose the dense, hustle-bustle life of the city even after you add all your little smart-growth things to the city.

Chastising the past isn't going to change people's choices in the present or future. Quit living in a bubble and start trying to understand the other side, because you'll never reach them as long as you refuse to do so.

Thank you ECB

The suburbs are not sustainable and need to be limited in their size. Trains can be very flexible and economic growth happens right around the stops.

I agree that prioritizing density will lead to the best quality of life for most people, because it breeds wealth in the form of culture, and it leaves open spaces beyond the city for people to visit and experience the outdoors.

But I love this line only for comic value, "Many poor people don't mind riding the bus to work." Priceless. Right up there with "Let them eat cake."

I'm so tired of the illusion of individual choice that gets referenced constantly in articles like these. Every major piece of infrastructure is the result of a centralized decision-making bureaucracy.

Cars were not careening into Lake Washington before the floating bridges were constructed. The infrastucture was installed; the people followed. The same goes for highways out to the hinterlands. Sprawl is a matter of policy.

The good news is that policy can (and is being) changed.

"I agree that prioritizing density will lead to the best quality of life for most people, because it breeds wealth in the form of culture, and it leaves open spaces beyond the city for people to visit and experience the outdoors."

That is the most bs propaganda I've read yet. My neighborhodd already had a wealth of culture. 'Density' in the form of more monstrous cheap-yet-expensive condos is not improving the quality of life for people who aready lived here - it's changing the neighborhood to accommodate people who don't live here yet. The wealth of culture is being pushed out because artists can't afford to live or rent working space here anymore.

And open spaces in the city are important too. If I wanted to live somewhere that I have to get in a car to "visit and experience" the outdoors, I'd still be on the East Coast.

You can't build a wall around Seattle and not let anyone in. Sorry.

Open spaces, I believe they are called parks, are very nice in the city. Beyond the city limits, we should keep some wilderness, instead of unending suburbs and exhurbs which destroy the environment. Pack everyone into the cities and leave the rest to wildlife.

I'm all for enabling artists to stay and work in the city - that's what makes the city worth living in.

From a recent Comprehensive Plan update-

"The number of Seattle residents who worked outside Seattle grew 40% between 1990 and 2000". Given the growth of new jobs in places like Lynnwood, the Eastside, and the Kent Valley - I suspect this trend has continued to hold.

Should they all have to move to the suburbs to be closer to their jobs, too?

ECB,

Thanks for your pointing everyone in the direction of Density, Socialism & riding a bike, being the only intelligent choices left for us to make in Seattle.

Clearly, No-one would want to live in the Suburbs for Issues such as quality of life, School systems, low crime rates, room to grow and raise a family, etc...

I mean, how could sprawl POSSIBLY work to benfit anyone by linking those suburban areas by rail lines or other means of rapid transit (please ignore those failing social experiments such as London, Paris, NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc....).

Is it possible that the Strangers liberal employemnt policies on drug use, being able to take hangover as sick days, or showing up to s taff meeting with a gerbil firmly planetd in ones ass, etc. are trading off for a lower quality of reporter?

Smart growth is looking more and more like a new secular religion - and heaven forbid The Seattle Times (or anyone else) dare question the Stranger's quasi-religious beliefs.

Napolean XIII wrote: " Sprawl is affordable. Density is not."

Oh, really?

Let's look at some figures:

  • On average, owning a mid-size vehicle costs Angelenos more than $10,000 a year. I'm sure the numbers for Seattle are similar.
  • How about that $286 billion transportation bill Congress passed last year, the bulk of which goes towards road building, if I understand correctly?
  • Motor vehicle accidents in the United States end up costing $230 billion a year and more than 30,000 lives. (In comparison, 55,000 Americans were killed in the entire course of the Vietnam War.)
  • I wonder how many billions we spend on the health-care problems caused by people breathing in automobile pollution and living sedentary lifestyles based on driving everywhere.
  • How about the $63 billion a year that sitting in traffic costs Americans, according to the Texas Transportation Institute?
  • And how do we even begin to calculate the eventual costs of global warming? Hurricane Katrina's price tag is running in the billions, and that's just kid's stuff compared to the catastrophes global warming has in store.

Well, I guess if you ignore all these considerations, then yes, you can say that sprawl is cheaper than density. But let's keep one thing in mind.

We're coming toward the end of the era of cheap oil. At the current pace, in a few hundred years the human race will deplete a resource that it took nature hundreds of millions of years to create. And for getting people around via automobile at the scale that sprawl demands, nothing comes close to packing the wallop of oil and gasoline. As for that fellow who drives 450 miles a week to commute to Enumclaw, soon enough when gas is $6 a gallon his wallet will be changing his behavior in a way that apparently his conscience couldn't.

Oh, and I forgot to mention the $300 billion our nation has borrowed and the 2,500 lives we have lost invading a country that we couldn't have cared less about if it wasn't sitting on one of the world's top-five oil reserves.

Something else to leave out of the equation when you're considering what a bargain sprawl is.

Cressona....

Put down the Kool aid and walk away from the keyboard.

Let's see here. "Secular religion." "Kool Aid." I'm glad to hear you folks about willing to talk about these issues in a substantive way.

We could just stop subsidizing the suburbs, thus encouraging people to move closer to their work. As an example, with gas prices getting so high, my girlfriend and her ex both moved from Everett to be closer to where they work - one works in the U Dist, commuting by bus or car plus bus from Green Lake, the other in N Seattle near Greenwood and 105th, commuting by bus or car to Kirkland.

Cities have always been chosen due to efficiencies - when you're not shelling out $100 every two days to refuel your giant SUV, but taking a nice bus ride that takes half the time, it makes you realize that spending one to two hours on the road is just plain nuts.

Plus, they both get to spend more time with their kid.

That is a nice logical debunking effort ECB -- good job!

oh, as to oil - the major supplier of the US is Canada, followed by Mexico and Venezuala - the middle east accounts for very little of our oil and gas.

Cressona:

Find me a large, three bedroom house within Seattle City limits with a nice, big yard for my 2.5 children to play in for less than $239,000, please.

Napoleon XIII, let me figure out a way to provide a spacious house in Seattle at an affordable price for everyone in the entire Puget Sound region, including the millions who are going to be moving here in coming years. And while I'm at it, let me figure out how to provide that sort of lifestyle for billions of people across the planet.

Anyway, I find it very virtuous of you that you're thinking about yourself and your family first.

Well, then, we have a problem, don't we? Seattle is not affordable to the people who have to work in it. And it may never be again.

Napoleon XIII,

Don't forget the three-car garage! How any American can live without one of those is beyond me.

Napolean XIII wrote: "Well, then, we have a problem, don't we? Seattle is not affordable to the people who have to work in it. And it may never be again."

Or perhaps Americans are going to have to learn to live like Europeans do, or like Americans used to live until a few generations ago. Believe it or not, suburban sprawl and massive consumption of nonrenewable resources is not something that God bestowed upon us as an inalienable right by virtue of our being born American citizens. (I'm assuming naturalized citizens were not granted this God-given right.)

Madeline, I'm not proposing putting a wall around Seattle and not letting anyone in. But most of the projects that are being built under the aegis of "density" are not going to encourage those who would otherwise sprawl to live without their cars.

Nice non-sequitur. But I seriously doubt you could even find a three-car garage in Seattle for less than $300k.

Home ownership is one of those basic foundations of the American Dream. Until that changes, people will move to where they can afford one.

And most people can't afford one in Seattle, whether they've got a bike, trike or 2-ton SUV.

Home ownership? I happen to own a home and it looks nothing like what Napolean describes. And what, Europeans don't value home ownership just because their homes have not been built around the automobile?

When we talk about what's "affordable," isn't it the essence of selfish and amoral thinking to think only in terms of "What does it cost me?" rather than "What does it cost the world?" I can only hope that looking out strictly for #1 (and #1's progeny) has not elevated itself into a virtue. Because if it has, woe to us all.

Cressona,

Been to Monroe or Pierce County lately? Thousands of affordable new single family homes, with a waiting list of future commuters to buy them. You can wag your finger all you want, but those are the choices hundreds of thousands of people in this state are already making (and while they'll probably be perfectly happy to give up the internal combustion engine in favor of a more environmentally sound replacement, good luck getting them to give up individual vehicle ownership.)

In the meantime, while y'all are working out your theoretical positions, another thousand houses just went up in the far exurbs beyond the suburbs. This is where reality kicks in: people buy these houses even though they are shoddily constructed, hideous, and trapped out along two-lane roads that cannot handle the traffic. Then the pressure comes to enlarge the road, which increases the traffic pressure at whatever point they connect to the old world. And then you get LA.

This process is not a theoretical worst-case; it's the actual process that is happening NOW and has been for a decade or more. ALL of the population growth in this area is happening in the manner I describe.

You can SAY that "sprawl doesn't work", but it DOES work, badly, but it's the reality of the situation. In a sense it doesn't matter if it "works" or not, because that's where 99% of all the building goes on anyways.

A couple of condo units here and there change this equation not at all.

And you see, Mr. X, these are precisely the poor (albeit selfish) schlubs I feel sorry for. Maybe today they can strain to make the calculation of what's affordable strictly based on their own self-interest, but eventually the calculation is not going to work even on those terms. What happens to these people when gas and ethanol are $6 a gallon?

Whenever America suffers its next energy-crisis induced recession, it is the exurbs that will suffer most.

cressona,

You ask (complain) about having a discussion, yet all you've done is spout off far, far, far left talking points.

The topic you choose to not address are simple things like reality, history, personal choice, etc...

I'm curious, do you, ECB, (or even Will in Seattle) actually own property in Seattle? Do you have families? I would wage that none of you are even close to this portion of life.

It's not about the SUV, 3 car garage or any of that other BS. It's about giving your family the same opportunities and tools to work with that you had a a child.

I prefer to live in the city, however that does not mean I begrudge other peoples choice to live in the suburbs, as you are doing.

Personally, I'd prefer that my kids are not witnessing, as a societal norm, many of the things found in downtown Seattle.

No parent wants to explain to their 5 year old (nor should they have to) what the 18 inch dildo in shop along Broadway is for. Nor do they really want to explain to their kids what dykes on bikes are, Crack heads, Junkies, Street Kids, leather daddies, etc...
let alone, why the drunk who passed out on the sidewalk is pissing himself.

That is one of primary beneifts to the suburbs your not prsenting in your anti-road, pro-density rant. The ability for a family to surround itself with other familes to bring their kids up without that crap in their face everyday.


The lion's share of people in the US want to live in a place where they can have a house they can modify to suit their needs (that doesn't feel like a shoebox), a yard to tinker around in, and neighborhoods full of kids for their kids to play with. At a price they can finance over the long term. They will live 100 miles from the job if that's what it takes to have that.

I think the answer is making fast, clean transit that goes everywhere and making sure you have greenbelts and very large protected forested areas with trailheads at a variety of levels of accessibility. We could also do with some more rowhouses in this country. Done right, rowhouses satisfy the need to have a house you can modify that doesn't feel like a shoebox and give you a little bit of yard to tinker in.

Brian wrote:

"Question for smart growth proponents. I lived in a large metro area for six years and four employers. Layoffs happen and companies go out of business

"Is the intention, then, for Joe Smart-Growth to pick up and move to follow his job? Stay in the hood and wait for his neighborhood widget factory to come back to life? Neither option seems very attractive.

"Economic dislocation happens - how does Smart Growth handle that?"

Brian, this is a worthwhile question and illustrates just how deep a hole we've dug ourselves. My snarky answer is "Rome wasn't built in a day." My serious answer is that it's going to take many years of smart planning to make up for 50, 60, 70 years of planning that catered strictly to motor vehicles. One thing that needs to happen is for more employers to set up shop in city centers that have access to transit. That includes downtown Bellevue as well as downtown Seattle. Notice that Microsoft just decided to locate its sales operation in the new Lincoln Square in Bellevue.

Anyway, I know your situation all too well from my own painful personal experience having had to commute across the 520 bridge from Seattle to four different jobs. I always wondered why my employers have to put their offices in farflung outposts that were only accessible by automobile.

Inevitably, sooner or later, commuting by car to the extent we do it today will become unsustainably expensive. And then when economic dislocation does hit, will enough employers be located in employment centers to soften the blow? Because if not, that's just going to make a bad situation worse for the entire economy.

Paul - the den of hedonism that you describe is fascinating, but it doesn't sound like the Seattle I live and work in.

Both sides here are right: you're talking past each other.

People want to live in detached houses in safe neighborhoods with good schools. They also want to walk to amenities, not need to sit in traffic and leave the polar ice caps nice and frozen.

A lot of people balance the first want over the second. The Seattle Times has reported on such people. It's not the whole story: some people, many Stranger readers included, choose the second over the first.

The key question here for the pro-density side is how to make density attractive to people currently moving to exurbs. Can Seattle make row houses attractive to families? Is it more important to concentrate on making Shoreline and White Center as dense as Wallingford and stop gentrifying downtown?

The key question for the anti-density side is what happens 20 years from now? How do we handle global warming? Can we build enough freeways for the Monroe commuters? What happens if we don't build those freeways?

I'd love to hear the answers: this is going to define our community for the next 20 years or more.

Paul in Seattle wrote: "cressona, You ask (complain) about having a discussion, yet all you've done is spout off far, far, far left talking points."

Paul, you want to talk about substance rather than labels, and yet here you are throwing out more labels: "far, far, far left talking points." Why don't you call me a "liberal" or an "America hater" while you're at it?

Paul wrote: "That is one of primary beneifts to the suburbs your not prsenting in your anti-road, pro-density rant. The ability for a family to surround itself with other familes to bring their kids up without that crap in their face everyday."

It seems like you're conflating density with drugs, crime, and -- why don't you mention undesirable ethnic groups while you're at it? There happen to be plenty of family-friendly neighborhoods in Seattle that also have density. How about just about every neighborhood north of the Ship Canal? I happen to own property in a neighborhood that has two parks within walking distance. I don't see what the terrible sacrifice is in raising a family in a townhouse or rowhouse, if not necessarily a flat.

More Paul: "I prefer to live in the city, however that does not mean I begrudge other peoples choice to live in the suburbs, as you are doing."

I don't personally begrudge other people the choice to live in the suburbs. All I'm doing is stating the undeniable consequences. To say that people's individual choices to live auto-dependent lifestyles have nothing to do with global warming or Islamic terrorism or the Iraq war is a bit like saying that no animal died to produce the hamburger I'm eating. At least be honest enough to acknowledge the obvious cause-and-effect.

Steve wrote: "The key question here for the pro-density side is how to make density attractive to people currently moving to exurbs. Can Seattle make row houses attractive to families? Is it more important to concentrate on making Shoreline and White Center as dense as Wallingford and stop gentrifying downtown?"

Great question, Steve. This is the question facing Seattle's political leadership. I know Peter Steinbrueck has spoken up precisely about this challenge.

Paul in Seattle - a parenting class might help you address those hard-to-talk-about what-have-yous. might sound snarky, but i really do think it might help a great deal.

the suburbs and exhurbs are a blight on our planet's future and should be politically curbed. even though this kind of development is happening at a huge scale does not mean it is something we can't be opposed to. yes, some people want to live in the suburbs, but others are somewhat forced to live there, for the better public schools, and bigger houses. We should fix our urban schools, but bigger houses is a sociopathic and/or ignorant reason to pillage the planet and ruin what remains of our clean air and water. the children that are being raised in the burbs are going to pay for the burbs' resultant destruction of natural resources. ironic.

The problem is that "Smart Growth" is losing ground even as it "takes off". And there are no large-scale or powerful players signing on; i.e., Microsoft is in Redmond, not downtown, and is expanding in Redmond, not downtown. Downtown is a much, much less significant part of the regional economy now, when the city is a fifth of the Metro area, than it was fifty years ago when it was half. The jobs are mostly elsewhere. And Seattle's very attractive building stock is turning into a bedroom community for those jobs.

These are powerful trends, much more powerful than the handful of condo units going up in-city. The kinds of pressures that can make people voluntarily move their families into apartment condos -- many of which ARE extremely affordable still -- are very complex. Transit is just a small part of the picture, and yet we can't even get that part off the ground. And any transit that hews to the old models -- i.e. spokes around a downtown hub -- is missing 90% of the action.

Remember also that there is a very strong "libertarian" property-rights streak in this state which is actively trying to remove growth restrictions and INCREASE sprawl. They're focused and energetic and winning the argument right now.

uh, paul? i remember perfectly well when, at the age of around five or six, my parents took me to dinner on broadway and had occasion to explain to me what a drag queen was. they also held my hands when i danced on the bronze dance steps, and took me wading at volunteer park. kids can handle broadway just fine—if you're scared of telling a child what dykes on bikes are, just imagine what kind of fearful, intolerant adult they'll grow up to be.

Napolean - you won't find that in Vancouver BC. There you get a nice apartment, next to a park for your 2.5 kids to play in, with transit services.

That's what the future holds.

Unfortunately, Steve, all of those questions have been answered in ways that are unlikely to be popular around here. Sprawl isn't a future situation we can avoid if we just think really hard now; it's a fait accompli. We can do what we can to make our own city neighborhoods "pedestrian-friendly", inasmuch as we understand how to do that (i.e. not very well), but that doesn't have much of an impact on the region as a whole, which is sprinting the opposite direction.

I think the folks here, however well-intentioned they are, drastically overemphasize two things: (a) the relative importance of city neighborhoods to the region, and (b) the degree to which the results of "urban planning" are planned. It's a descriptive science, not a prescriptive one.

Fnarf - you may be deft at repeatedly describing the situation we are in, but provide your input on what we should do about it, because you certainly must know of the impending doom and gloom upon the environment.

Cressona,
Yeah, Steinbreuck has weighed in on the question. First in 1989 when he led the effort to artificially lower building heights - because construction in the city was causing too much disruption for the people who already worked/lived here. Net result: setting back Seattle 20 years and forcing thousands of potential residents to chose (yes, it is a choice) to flee to the suburbs becasue that's where the jobs and housing was cheaper and easier to build. CAP was about as Anti-Smart Growth as you can get. It makes sense since he lives in a 50's style suburban neighborhood in Lake City.

More recently our esteemed City Councilmember made sure that any building that takes advantage of adiitional height (and the density that comes with it) is TAXED with a $20 per square foot charge that goes to affordable housing developers to build subsidized housing. That's wonderful if you qualify for subsidized housing - but if you have a middle-class job (that pays more than 60% of the median income), Mr. Steinbreuck's plan means that developers are going to tack an extra $20 per square foot ($20,000 for a 1,000 square foot condo) on to your rapidly evaporating affordable housing options. Net result: developers target the super high-end since and build almost exclusively million $ condos since that is the only group that can afford the surcharge. The middle class Joes have no choice but to make the commute out to the exurbs where they can afford the homes.

While some of the above is an oversimplification, the fact remains - Steinbreuck talks a good game but is no friend to density or smart growth. If you want to see these policies enacted in Seattle you'll need to find another champion.

Wow, as Cressona et al fought to derail this discussion, Fnarf of all people saves it at 3:10 pm with a dead-on comment.

We usually butt heads, but I've gotta agree completely with that.

Here's something I see in the future: telecommuting. Cressona poses the question of what will happen when gas is $6 a gallon? When all the people whose primary work tool is a computer live all spread out, telecommuting wil be a much more attractive option for many employers, especially as current experiments prove to be worth the risk. (My wife telecommutes so I've seen it firsthand.)

Will that solve all the problems? Of course not. But if your job is primarily typing on a computer, and telecommunications become cheaper and easier to work with, is there a good reason to go to the office? Maybe once or twice a week, which still means 3 or 4 days without driving to work.

Densitynow, you're right about all of the above.

I've been so busy focusing my Seattle City Council rage at Nick Licata lately, I've forgotten what a hypocrite Steinbrueck has been about all these issues. Steinbrueck wrings his hands about driving away the middle class at the same time he's establishing policies that drive away the middle class. And yes, anti-transit suburban developer Kemper Freeman should be paying Steinbrueck royalties to this day for the CAP initiative.

Souptwist...

Where they hell do live in the city?.

*
It's not about being scared to tell your children. It's also about allowing your kids have a childhood.


Cressona...
How dare you paint me as a racist.

Yes, your points of view are to the far, far, far left. You are to the point where people stop listening to you as you have begun to sound insane and irresponsibile.

Madeline,

I would be willing to bet you don't have any kids. if you do, I would bet thet are the biggest fuck-ups anyone has ever seen.

This area already uses transit FAR more than the norm. If "Transit NOW" succeeds it will improve on the strengths of the current functional bus service matrix. That'll help the growing number of commuters, and improve access throughout a very large geographical area.

Madeline: my view is that it doesn't matter what "we" think we "should do". the unfolding of history is not the result of the decisions of the planners, and certainly not of blog commentators. What's going to happen is going to happen whether we plan it, or want it, or not.

As for global warming, again: it doesn't matter. If the entire US was vaporized off the earth tomorrow global warming would proceed apace, because the tremendous growth in energy use and carbon output is coming not from the US but from China and India and other countries as they industrialize. Most Americans are clueless about what's happening in the rest of the world. China is BLOWING UP. And to be honest, telling them they shouldn't is a bit ridiculous just because WE got rich first.

So the question isn't, what should we do to prevent global warming?, which is like asking what we should do to prevent sunrise or aging; it's what are you going to do about it?

I am surprisingly in accord with much of Cressona's POV but the fact is not many are. The switching away from single-passenger autos and too-big houses is a boutique thing, and has little to do with the mainstream of America, running their SUVs out to Enumclaw and back.

The sad thing is that this pattern of developement, here in 2006, is roughly identical to that of NYC or LA, a hundred or fifty years ago.

"You are to the point where people stop listening to you as you have begun to sound insane and irresponsibile."

Paul - I think you actually just described yourself quite well.

Napoleon: What's the tally on posters well-spelling vs. misspelling your name?

Fnarf wrote: As for global warming, again: it doesn't matter. If the entire US was vaporized off the earth tomorrow global warming would proceed apace, because the tremendous growth in energy use and carbon output is coming not from the US but from China and India and other countries as they industrialize. Most Americans are clueless about what's happening in the rest of the world. China is BLOWING UP. And to be honest, telling them they shouldn't is a bit ridiculous just because WE got rich first.

So the question isn't, what should we do to prevent global warming?, which is like asking what we should do to prevent sunrise or aging; it's what are you going to do about it?

This is much the same opinion expressed by Newsweek business columnist Robert Samuelson. Global warming is going to happen anyway, we're too far gone, ergo let's give up trying to fight it.

Really, this is a morally bankrupt argument because it fails to acknowledge that global warming is a moral issue. It's a bit like the Allies saying, "Well, the Nazis are already going to murder a million Jews by the time we do anything, so let's give up on trying to stop the Holocaust."

Yes, the ball has already set in motion with global warming. Terrible things will happen regardless of what we do at this point. But do we give up on saving 200 million humans from death or 2,000 species from extinction because we know we won't be able to save 10 million humans from death or 100 species from extinction?

If we throw up our hands about global warming, we might as well throw up our hands about nuclear terrorism and about any other terrible crisis facing the human race. Let's all just become nihilists and existentialists and feel good about ourselves for our sophistication. Sorry, Fnarf, but I choose not to abdicate the responsibility that comes with being human.

Fnarf - there are way more people on the planet now than 100 or 50 years ago. so this pattern/philosophy of development can be seen as different than NY or LA was back then, if only because the consequences are much more obvious.

yes, things will happen that are going to happen, and i do as much as i can, as far as my personal choices go, to not destroy the environment. the seeming inevitability of catastrophy does not mean that our growth philosophies can't be refined and exist above the corporate developers that buy mass amounts of land and build single-family houses in the middle of nowhere. some of us have to resist politically and philosophically, and debating those points of view is what we are doing here. you can say it doesn't matter, but it does to those who choose to resist no matter how hopeless something may seem. you can say it is futile, but how can anyone judge what is futile to another? that is completely subjective.

i think perhaps it is a difference in general philosophy about how valuable it is to talk about something that may seem like it's already happened, and what the role resistance plays for the individual and the community.

I also suspect telecommuting is going to become huge. I mean, how many of us really need to be, in a physical sense, at our workplace? Every single day? Retail and service workers, certainly...but even half of us could work from home most of the time, it would make an enormous difference.

The United States still produces 25 percent of the world's pollution. (We make up five percent of the world's population.) Saying that we might as well not do anything about our carbon emissions, because, eventually, China and India will surpass us, is a massive cop-out.

Oh, and Paul,
You said that American parents want ...neighborhoods full of kids for their kids to play with...

Since when do middle-class American kids interact with other kids? They stay inside all day and play video games. There's also not much point to have backyards anymore, no one uses them.

Do I own property in Seattle? Yeah, I've lived here since 1989, it's still cheaper to live here than Vancouver BC and own a home, I bought a house (giant one, big yard, two lots) with garage etc back in 1992 and now own a condo (2 br) that's got a garage and multiple floors in Fremont (got sick of the yard, miss the flowers but have low water use plants and trees now).

I used to live in apartments (and houses) in the lower mainland in BC (that's Vancouver, E. Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster) before I moved here.

And my son and many kids I've known grew up in Ballard and Fremont and Wallingford and Phinney Ridge and so on.

So, Paul, considering my kid's getting a 3.7 GPA at Roosevelt High School, had five Latin regional awards this past school year, and has probably done more in his 15 years growing up in Seattle than you'll do in your life, yeah, I think I know something about raising kids in this city.

If you don't like it here - leave. We won't miss you. Try Oklahoma, I hear they have a basketball team you can go broke paying for.

Oh, and Paul, I should point out drug use is highest in rural areas, and a lot higher in suburban areas than in urban areas. You confuse statistics on a map with density - we live where there are more people, but have a lower level of problems. You live where there aren't many people, but have a lot more problems per person (like kids using knives against an autistic kid over and over and over ...).

"Sorry, Fnarf, but I choose not to abdicate the responsibility that comes with being human."

I'm cool with that. Just spare us the sanctimony. Deal?

Actually I said that people want neighborhoods full of kids for their kids to play with -- and I stand by that even in the context of kids staying at home playing video games. They will often have friends over for said activity. Seattle has some very breed-tastic neighborhoods (as do many of the closer-in bedroom communities), and I don't think it has a perception problem in that regard -- but it definitely has an affordability problem to many of the people who would benefit the most from living in Seattle (that is, if they've got their sights set on being Owners).

FNARF,

What's with the repeated references to the "handful" of condos that are being built in Seattle?

Right now, there are over 300 condominiums planned or under construction in Ballard alone. City-wide, there are thousands.

I don't know how big your hands are, but I think you've used them to scoop up a steaming pile of bullshit.

How many times have I said this? Drive out to the hillsides above Marysville, or due east towards Carnation, or south to Puyallup South Hill, and tell me if those condo units are a significant portion of the new housing in the area. Seriously, you folks need to get out more. The west slope of the Cascades is being BLANKETED with houses. Hundreds of thousands of them.

and don't even get me started about how many hundred condos they just built in Fremont - heck, they're just about finished with another 100.

I don't agree, Cressona. With respect to global warming, saying NOW that "we should do XY and Z to prevent it" is like saying in 1959 "we must stop the Holocaust". The Holocaust has already happened. And the part that HASN'T happened -- like China's energy use in the next twenty years -- is unamenable to Western handwringing. They honestly do not give a flying fuck; they're going to develop their way out of poverty no matter how many international accords are signed or not signed.

Telecommuting is right up there with the Paperless Office in the pantheon of anti-ideas. Most people do in fact NEED to be in an office to do good work; they need the social structure to know what the heck their company is all about. It may not seem logical, but it's true. Even those people who can force themselves to actually WORK from home, as opposed to dawdling around all day, usually end up finding that a shared physical workspace contributes more to the exchange of ideas than all the email in the world. I say that as someone coming up on close to 20 years sending email.

Can some people do it? Sure. Will it ever be enough to seriously dent the road miles in the USA? No.

I also want to say that arguing about this is stimulating and fun, and I appreciate Cressona's "far left" point of view very much, as it is well reasoned and sensible for the most part, even when I disagree and comments like "your kids must be fuck-ups" and so on aren't really doing it for me. I know that as right-thinking Americans, the events of the last half-decade or so have us all bleeding out of our eyes with rage, but a little civility is a good thing. Save the hate for Rush Limbaugh, OK?

"The west slope of the Cascades is being BLANKETED with houses. Hundreds of thousands of them."

My advice to our animal bretheren is, therefore: Head East, young mammal, Head East!

FNARF,

Yes, you've blathered on many times about the "proportion" of new housing that Seattle condominiums represent.

You've also repeatedly asserted that there are only a "handful" of condos going up in Seattle. So tell me: if you're full of shit on the latter, why not the former?

Fnarf,
10,000 new units planned for downtown by 2010:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/273888_downtown14.html
This is to meet demand.

Up in the Cascades (where the hills are blanketed) single family homes are typically 4 to the acre. When roads, open spaces, community centers and the like are added developers average around 3 homes to the acre. The 10k units planned for downtown translate into 3,333 acres of hillside being plowed under.

With that type of devestation it's no wonder you believe that all of the development is happening in the exurbs...

Loggerman,

This is the classic fallacy of "smart growth" devotees - if you build dense housing in the City, the argument goes, you prevent sprawl in the suburbs and exurbs. The problem is that you're talking about two fundamentally different housing markets, and dense urban housing just doesn't appeal to people who want a single family house in a quiet neighborhood. And when you build commercial high-rises, a goodly portion of the people who work there will choose not to live in the City (no matter how much Cressona chides them for making choices he doesn't approve of).

This is exactly why I compare smart growth advocates to religious nuts - their dogma is impervious to inconvenient facts.

Cressona: you have invoked Godwin's law by making a comparison to Nazis. The discussion is effectively over. I agree with you on most points, but you do put extreme words in the mouths of others rather hastily.

Fnarf is right about the hundreds and thousands of tract homes. Just drive up to Snoqualmie Falls, where the recently wooded approach to the falls alone has been covered with thousands of identical box houses.

We as a nation will continue to consume and pollute until it ceases to be possible, either due to lack of materials or lack of livable environment, whichever comes first. We as a race have slipped the bonds of natural selection. We are breeding uncontrollably, and that is the root cause of all our problems. Because it is every being's 'right' to breed, this trend will not cease until a crisis point occurs to forcibly end it. All that we as conscientious individuals can do is work to reduce our own footprint on the planet, try to improve our immediate environment, and hopefully lead by example.

Paul said: No parent wants to explain to their 5 year old (nor should they have to) what the 18 inch dildo in shop along Broadway is for. Nor do they really want to explain to their kids what dykes on bikes are, Crack heads, Junkies, Street Kids, leather daddies, etc...
let alone, why the drunk who passed out on the sidewalk is pissing himself

You are speaking about a very very small area of the city.

You will still see plenty of unpleasant things in rural areas. The nasty fact of the matter is that meth use is incredibly high in rural areas, as is domestic violence and poverty.

Now you don't need to quote Hobbes to your children but no matter where you live there is always going to be some aspect that is less than pretty.

Like obscenely large cheap beige homes and ignorant people.

Fnarf, your dismissal of telecommuting sounds like you were considering full-time telecommuting. I believe part-time telecommuting is realistic; you'd still have face-to-face time when you go into the office, and even when you're not there, there's always video conferencing, now available in the home thanks to webcams. But I don't think the office will ever become obsolete just like paper won't.

Fnarf wrote: I don't agree, Cressona. With respect to global warming, saying NOW that "we should do XY and Z to prevent it" is like saying in 1959 "we must stop the Holocaust". The Holocaust has already happened.

I actually can't believe you would make a statement like this, if only to defend yourself. For you to actually stand by a claim that it is too late to do anything about global warming is probably as far beyond the scientific pale as global warming denial. I doubt there is a reputable climate scientist out there who actually believes that the magnitude of global warming will not be affected by what the human race (or the human race minus China) does from this point forward.

More Fnarf: I also want to say that arguing about this is stimulating and fun, and I appreciate Cressona's "far left" point of view very much, as it is well reasoned and sensible for the most part, even when I disagree and comments like "your kids must be fuck-ups" and so on aren't really doing it for me. I know that as right-thinking Americans, the events of the last half-decade or so have us all bleeding out of our eyes with rage, but a little civility is a good thing. Save the hate for Rush Limbaugh, OK?

Um, the comment you're referring to comes from my friend Paul in Seattle: "I would be willing to bet you don't have any kids. if you do, I would bet thet are the biggest fuck-ups anyone has ever seen."

Anyway, I'm glad we're able to stick to the substance here. Let's see, so far we've got "far left," "far, far, far left," "secular religion," "quasi-religious beliefs," "Kool Aid," "sanctimony," and I even got called for a little race-baiting and incivility. And all this just for pretty much sticking to the facts and figures!

Ivan Cockrum wrote: Cressona: you have invoked Godwin's law by making a comparison to Nazis. The discussion is effectively over. I agree with you on most points, but you do put extreme words in the mouths of others rather hastily.

So Ivan, let me ask you, who was I comparing to Nazis? -- "Well, the Nazis are already going to murder a million Jews by the time we do anything, so let's give up on trying to stop the Holocaust."

I'm familiar enough with Godwin's law to know not to mess with it. According to Wikipedia, "Godwin observed that people had increasingly begun to compare anyone and anything they mildly disliked with Hitler and/or Fascism." I was comparing how we might respond to a great evil like the Holocaust.

By the way, how many people died in World War II? Forty million? I can easily imagine global warming ultimately claiming many more lives, through both famine and war. And I shudder to think about the wars we'll have in this century over nonrenewable resources.

P.S. I guess it's a testament to how dearly folks love their sprawl when in a single thread I get accused of both race-baiting and Godwin's law.

I just wrote: Anyway, I'm glad we're able to stick to the substance here. Let's see, so far we've got "far left," "far, far, far left," "secular religion," "quasi-religious beliefs," "Kool Aid," "sanctimony," and I even got called for a little race-baiting and incivility. And all this just for pretty much sticking to the facts and figures!
Mr. X, I missed your recent post. Let me add to that list "religious nuts" and "dogma." I apologize for the omission.

Fnarf -- telecommuting doesn't mean you have to do it 100% of the time. You can still go into the office some days of the week, and you can still understand the structure of the company, etc. As for offices encouarging productivity...well, I don't know where you work but every place I've ever worked has more than it's share of people BS-ing, gossiping, taking cigarette breaks, playing video games, etc etc etc

Of course, it's just as likely that future employers will just try to export all the jobs to overseas contractors...

FNARF said: tell me if those condo units are a significant portion of the new housing in the area. Seriously, you folks need to get out more. The west slope of the Cascades is being BLANKETED with houses. Hundreds of thousands of them.

You're really talking out your arse on this one, Farf. The entire Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue region has a total, currently, of less then 800,000 single family homes. Not just new construction -- that is the entire stock of single family homes in the metro area, old and new. So to say that there are hundreds of thousand of new homes on the west slope of the Cascades is greatly exaggerated.

Few clarifications and postscripts here, if anyone is still reading…

I had originally written: "At the current pace, in a few hundred years the human race will deplete a resource that it took nature hundreds of millions of years to create." I meant a few hundreds years from when we started consuming oil in the 1800s, not from the present.

Just think about that, though. The oil age will be a blip not just in the history of the earth but in human history. What's just as remarkable to me is that even the Pollyannas out there are saying we have decades of oil left. They're not saying centuries; they're saying decades. This is why Kenneth Deffeyes, in the book "Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage," writes "crude oil is much too valuable to be burned as a fuel."

I hear smart growth supporters like myself repeatedly compared to religious fanatics. I know this is meant as an insult, but perhaps it's not such an insult. If I recall my American history correctly, it was a bunch of religious zealots who started the Abolition movement against slavery. Same for the Civil Rights movement. Today there is a burgeoning Christian environmentalist movement. I don't know much about this or how serious it is. (I do know that instead of asking "What would Jesus drive?", we should ask "Would Jesus drive?") I think if there's to be any serious shift in public attitudes away from sprawl, Christian activists will have to play a major role. And really when you think about it, conservation is much more consistent with Judeo-Christian values than sprawl is.

I do have to respond to an argument I keep hearing from Mr. X: people will continue to choose sprawl "(no matter how much Cressona chides them for making choices he doesn't approve of)."

Actually, Mr. X, let me ask you: do you approve of these choices?

But let's look at the assumption behind this argument: we have no right to tell people their lifestyle is destructive and immoral if their lifestyle is popular. So basically popularity is the determiner of morality. By this standard, because George W. Bush is a popular enough guy to get elected president (whether or not he got some help from Diebold and his brother Jeb), we have no right to question our Commander in Chief.

History is littered with stories of the populace being out of step with the intelligentsia where ultimately history showed that the populace was wrong. Eventually, a small group of activists, with a big bide of history, change public attitudes, even if it takes generations.

I do acknowledge one implication of Mr. X's argument. There is a portion of the population that will cling to their auto-dependent way of life, no matter what anyone says, until they are forced to change. These are the hardcore Eyman voters. They direct their wrath at any politician who dares to lead the necessary transition to density. And these are the same people who will suffer the most when the serious oil scarcity sets in.

Cite, you moron, he was being metaphorical in saying hundreds of thousands. He's saying that you see houses and houses. That was the point, not to make a direct statistical seeing eye approximation. Your pedantic point only makes you look like a fool.

Er, Gomez -- he was comparing the ten thousand or so new condo units to the "hundreds of thousands" of new single family homes, in order to point out that all those condo units are a mere drop in the bucket in comparison. So either he was being literal when he said "hundreds of thousands", or he was making no sense. So actually, you're wrong.
And by the way, do you think calling me a moron and fool makes you look great?

Oh, and as a side note, Gomez -- you should learn what a metaphor is so that the next time you use the term "metaphorically speaking" you can use it correctly. It kind of helps when you are accusing someone else of being a moron to actually use your own words correctly.

Well, it looks like my work here is done.

And Lloyd: My name is not so much misspelled as it is mangled by people with no basic understanding of Roman numerals.

The west side of the Cascades includes a LOT more territory than the "Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue" metro area. The officially-defined metro area isn't keeping up with the facts on the ground; the metro area extends from Vancouver to Vancouver now. Again: you're thinking of downtown Seattle as the center of everything, when it's not, and is rapidly losing its importance. There are six million people in WA now, and the vast majority of them never come into Seattle.

Pick up a real estate guide sometime. There are housing developments going up everywhere. The next big push, when the new Narrows bridge opens, is going to be Gig Harbor and the Key Peninsula, which will be a fully urbanized area within a decade. The land use signs are up, and the hills are already showing huge outcroppings of units, hundreds at a time.

The Losangelesification of the Western half of the state is not a metaphor. You people need to get out more.

No, actually, Cite, you ARE just a moron. Sorry.

it is so fun to open up a thread and read someone calling someone s/he doesn't even know a moron. and that's it. that's all s/he had to say. great.... interesting.... NOT.

it is so fun to open up a thread and read someone calling someone s/he doesn't even know a moron. and that's it. that's all s/he had to say. great.... interesting.... NOT.

it is so fun to open up a thread and read someone who doesn't "Please click Post only *once*".

it is so fun to open up a thread and read someone who doesn't "Please click Post only *once*".

Regardless of the nastiness here and there, it's always a pleasure to see such a passionate discussion of these issues. I hope that you folks are saving at least some of your mental energy for direct political/social action!

i'd rather read a post that has content twice, than some random insults between people who don't know eachother.

I'd rather read a post from a person who has the guts not to hide behind a random anony-pseudonym like Cite or Sigh while hurling personal and baseless attacks.

And I'd rather not read any more posts (on ANY blog) from people chastising others for using pseudonyms, especially when they're only addressing those that disagree with them.

fnarf -- the seattle-tacoma-bellevue msa includes all of king, pierce & snoho counties -- that would include the west slope of the cacades. the population of the msa is 3.2 million, more than half of the state's people. you're right though, i was not thinking the entire western half of the state -- i thought you were refering to this metro area, not the whole of wesern washington & bc too

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