Vafa's my neighbor two blocks East. He's right. Not only that, but the actions of the Mayor in doing his "alcohol crackdown zones" downtown each time pushes homeless people out of downtown and into Fremont, Ballard, and other neighborhoods.

Face it, you live in a big city. You can't just give the millionaire condo dwellers downtown streets without drunks without pushing them onto the property tax payers in the rest of the city. We have our own issues with noisy bars and drunks, normally we can handle them, but when you give us even more to deal with it just plain doesn't work.

So, let's stop pretending Fremont and Ballard don't exist. And stop treating us like second-class citizens, just because we're more ethnically diverse than most areas in the city and have ethnically and economically diverse schools.

Ballard and Fremont, "more ethnically diverse"? Yeah, right.

The noise ordinance certainly is ambiguous, but that's easy to fix. We could just re-write it to specify a certain dB level for a certain time period at a certain distance. Would that make you happy, Erica, or are you unhappy that the ordinance tries to protect neighbors from nightclub noise at all?

As far as vandalism, urination, etc. are concerned, it's clear that nightclubs can't control these behaviors more than a few feet beyond their door. But it's also clear that nightclubs do contribute to these problems, and it's unfair to ask the neighbors to bear this cost for the nightclub owners' gain. One way to deal with this would be to establish a "nightclub externality tax" that is proportional to the rate of these crimes and divided among all the nearby clubs. The proceeds could be used to buy extra police and pay for clean-up.

Fnarf is right, Will. Unless by diversity you mean Sweedes and Norwegians living together, Ballard and Freemont are among the least diverse neighborhoods in the city.

Nightclubs TOTALLY control those kinds of behaviors, by the kind of clientele they attract. Unfortunately in Seattle the kind of clientele that is happy to shell out the kind of bucks that keeps fancy nightclubs in business IS the kind of clientele that pisses in doorways, shouts, screams, falls down, and vomits all over the sidewalk. Keeping that out of the neighborhood is a good idea, unless and until the frat boys and sorority bitchiz grow up a little.

I wouldn't call Fremont or Ballard more ethnically diverse neighborhoods either, not by a long shot. But that's beside the point.

I live in Fremont and have to put up with some noise from time to time. It's nothing I didn't expect when I moved right up the street from about six bars. Only once, when there was a fight outside my place, have I had to call the police. And while I agree that I wish there was less noise, vandalism, littering, and drunk people arguing loudly with their friends as they head homke at 2am, I can't think of a single thing the club owners or staff could do better - not that they should have to in the first place.

On Friday and Saturday nights, when the streets are the loudest and rowdiest, there are bouncers at the door of all the bars along 36th St. They escort people to taxis, they keep their entry lines orderly, and they make the street feel safer. I don't get exactly what else the FNC wants these clubs to do. Have the bouncers roam the neighborhoods? That would almost be scary.

Maybe the Mayor should create some kind of nightlife task force to patrol certain neighborhoods near bars. Nothing special, just a few cops on bikes or foot to wander each of the big nightlife areas and give out tickets for public drunkenness, urination, etc. I'd support that. They'd be like backup bouncers for the whole neighborhood.

Seattle is not just any big city. It is a big city with one of the lowest numbers of police officers per capita around.

So why shouldn't we expect lax enforcement against public urination, and vandalism, and a long list of other minor offenses? Why shouldn't we expect moves to put the burden of policing onto anyone but the SPD?

I'm with Erica and elenchos on this one.

It is not the fault of nightclubs that the Seattle police department is understaffed and is trying to shift their responsibilities onto others.

I mean sure, it would be nice if nightclubs only attracted "nice, responsible people who behave." However, putting the onus on the nightclubs to somehow only attract "the right people" and to blame them for anything that any that the "wrong people" do, even if it isn't directly related to the club? That's ridiculous.

Rather than penalizing clubs for calling 911 (as currently happens)--clubs and the SPD should be working together to make certain that people CAN go out and have a good time...and that people who mess things up for everyone else are dealt with properly--by enforcing the laws and having those whose job it is to enforce those laws actually do their job...

Somewhere, there's this sense that "if it weren't for nightclubs, there'd be no crime...no problems..."--and that's also ridiculous. You could say the same thing for sporting events--but the SPD seems to have a lot of resources when it comes to supporting that form of entertainment...supplying traffic control, maintaining a presence in and around the facility for hours before and after these events. I'm sure that if there was someone drunk and rowdy outside of Safeco Field that the police wouldn't blame the stadium and put them on notice that they'll be shut down unless they guarantee that no one will be drunk and rowdy outside of Safeco Field again.

And I'm not anti-sports--my point isn't that baseball games don't deserve proper police staffing...but that the fact that it gets proper police staffing indicates that choices are being made...and the SPD and the City Council is obviously ignoring the basic fact that local residents not only want to go to sporting events, but they also sometimes WANT to go to nightclubs and be entertained...and the City and the SPD are empowered to make certain that they can do so...and do so safely...

I really don't think any nightclub wants to be a cesspool or a center of mayhem and violence (well, maybe the Funhouse...but that's a punk thing...;))--but neither is the nightclub absolutely responsible for everything that might go on within an arbitrary radius of it.

If someone is peeing in public--whose fault is that? It's the idiot peeing in public. Whose job is it to stop him from peeing in public? I think it's the police's job to enforce the law.

Am I wrong?

pg

How about a "shot tax" that adds $20 to the cost of any shot, $25 if it's Jäger? And $10,000 a month as a fee from any bar that wishes to serve them? It's not hard liquor per se, it's the kind of person who drinks it.

Maybe just send all the young people off to labor camps.

umm...I think understaffing of the SPD is a red herring here. Yes, the police per capita ratio is lower here than in many cities, but far more important is use of police resources.

This city has a hard on for busting drug usrs (and prostitutes). The result is that SPD makes far more vice/narcotics arrests (undercover buy busts in particular, which consume enormous amounts of manpower) than cities of equivalent size and according to a recent analyis "clears" (resolves) a smaller percentage of other crimes than any city of equivalent size in the US. Yep, we're like dead last in solving burglary, car theft, robbery, etc.

So the more relevant question here is where are the cops at closing time on Friday and Sat night? Are they in Fremont, or are they over on Aurora busting addicts and hos? And where would you rather they be? For me public safety is a much larger issue than poor lifestyle choice.

Hey Gnossos,

I remember when the SPD announced that they were so understaffed that they would no longer bother with minor traffic violations.

Even if that's true...WHY WOULD YOU TELL PEOPLE THAT?

So, one argument says that they're understaffed...your argument says that they've got bad priorities...is anyone willing to make the argument that they're just lazy and don't really want to do their jobs?

I'm not. Certainly, not on a public forum...

I agree with the good people of Fremont. They, as the people who actually live there, should get to decide whether or not their neighborhood becomes a year long drunken frat party. To argue otherwise is to argue against democracy.
For the record the SHA residents of Belltower in Belltown have been complaining for years about this so it not just a matter for $500,000 condo owners. It is a matter of density not class.
The Stranger is always telling people to follow the money and to find the truth. A big part of the staff paychecks comes from Nightclub add revenues. This fact has been conviently omitted from all the stories on this issue.
Most media would disclose business relationships like that in their coverage. The connection does not bother me. The claim of fairness and objectivity does.

All I know is, my son's been a minority (at least the Caucasian aspect of him) in schools that had a lot of people from Fremont and Ballard. Yeah, we are ethnically diverse.

You must not get out much. Come see us when you're not hopping bars with the frat boys (white) and look around. On my block, half of us aren't even American, we've got people from Egypt, India, Pakistan, France, Japan, China, and a lot of other countries.

Open your eyes and realize I'm talking about the people who LIVE here, not the people who shop and drink and eat here.

Now, you want white, you got the Hill.

Ballard's changed a lot - when I moved there in 1991, it was mostly Swedes, Danes, and such, but since about 1995 it started getting multi-ethnic.

Just go to the nearby schools and open your eyes. Look at who goes to BF Day School, Lincoln, many others around. Sure, most of North of the Ship Canal is white, but not where I'm talking about - heck, my son was not just a minority, he was a minority minority, in middle school.

Nuff said. I love our multi-ethnic existence, even if we have to put up with the crowds of visitors that aren't.

Truth is that Seattle needs a thriving nightlife. Nightlife and surroundings is one of the things considered by young professionals when choosing a job. After all how many creative and skilled people want to relocate to Spokane to start their careers?
Its also these people that will buy their first home or condo here and keep property rates rising.
Noise should be expected if you live next to a commercial zone. Its just a fact of life. As far as other bad behaviours go it seems unreasonable to ask club owners to follow their patrons all the way home to make sure they behave properly.
Patrols in commercial areas is a good idea. I don't mean the mayors Red Herring "Joint Assesment Taskforce" either. That does nothing to help keep the order outside of businesses. Maybe the mayor could disband that group and give the money to the police department to put officers on foot in commercial zones.

If any more proof is needed that freemont sucks....

When i first moved here 12 years ago, freemont had some cool heads living there,some musicians, djs, old Todd shipyard drunks, and neighborhood organizer types, now its just a bunch of fleece wearing mo fo's from the midwest that have no sense of what city life is like.

You ocassionally see a pisser in freemont, like you would in any big city. well, what you do is tell him to go piss somewhere else. if he talks shit than put the smack down, if he is too big than take the hit or tell him to go piss somewhere else like ballard or phinney ridge, greenwood or some shit.

But Freemont is full of wimps who cant tell somebody to stop pissing so they want to shut down the clubs and make it even lamer thant it already is.

They just want their ethnic restaurants, their quiet clubs, and lights off at 10.

There is nothing anybody is going to be able to do, because they ( the residents) will shut crap down or make them sign dumb agreements or they will put the scare into lame'os like Conlin.

The best thing people can do is boycott Freemont and dont go there, dont spend there, dont drink there, dont do shit there... and pick a neighborhood thats open to night life.

This madness has to end. The city is being taken over by the fleece crowd. First they stop concerts at Gassworks and now they want clubs to police their neighborhood.

the previous comment touches upon the truth. HEAR YE: seattle is a totally passive/aggressive town (which sucks) and the wimps in fremont need to realize that sometimes one needs to try simply YELLING AT PEOPLE FROM THEIR WINDOWS and shit. it shouldn't be the cops' job to come deal with annoying/peeing/puking/fighting/WHATEVER *douchebags* that *YOU* (yes, *YOU*) SHOULD BE TELLING TO FUCK OFF (instead of complaining to big brother... grow some fucking hair on yer balls, fremont). god damn pansies! if big brother has to come fix all these LITTLE THINGS then he'll simply put stupid rules into place, cuz they don't have the time to patrol PIDDLY SHIT such as urinating fratboyz. have some respect for those with REAL PROBLEMS (muggings/shootings) and let the cops go to where they're REALLY NEEDED, ya god damned yuppies/wussies...

Gee Zander say it aint so! The Stranger might slant coverage because the bulk of their ad revenue comes from clubs? My innocence has been spoiled. I guess Fox News isn't the only "Fair and Balanced" news source out there...

Erica - since you're such a fan of going through Ethics and Elections contribution records to sleazily (or is it lazily) infer that local politicians have been bought off when they do something that you don't like - why not let us know how much The Stranger has been paid by the clubs whose agenda now seems to consume you.

What Fremont forgets in being so self-righteously idealist is that this law affects EVERY Seattle neighborhood, not just theirs.

While the comments above may or may not be trolling, I have to agree. Maybe opening your window and saying, "HEY, CUT IT OUT DOWN THERE," just once, before you go to the police and then the city and tell them to tell others how you want them to act and think, would be a more direct and, you'd be surprised, effective first step.

Also, it's funny to hear some people cite the 'diversity' of Fremont when one can walk down there on a given day and see a horde of white people... but if you can point out the one Egyptian or the two Chinese or the black guy... Fremont is diverse. Um, no. Look, you're trying, but we've been over this. If 7-8 out of every 10 people you see are white, you're not diverse enough to call yourself diverse. Quit pointing out the one Korean and the one Indian and the 2-3 Japanese and the black guy you never talk to but like to point out when you do things like talk about how diverse your neighborhood is, to try and prove your hood is diverse... because it only makes you look like an ignorant, guilty WASP.

Ditto Honky. Point well (if not elegantly) made!

Density, density, density. Great nightlife comes with density. So what if The Stranger gets payola from club owners? Living in a real city means loud music and getting drunk. We need more clubs not less. Quit whining and move back to the suburbs if you don't like the noise.

Wait, wait, wait... Some of you guys are making it seem like there's a giant uproar in Fremont about the noise levels and drunk people. There's not at all. The FNC isn't speaking for all of us residents when it endorses the nightlife ordinance. Many of us who live here frequent the bars and clubs who would be hurt by this ordinance. We may have even moved here because of the proximity to these clubs. We like them. To a point, we're willing to put up with the riffraff that comes along with them. When we see someone peeing in our parking garages or throwing a bottle into the street, we don't think, "Gee, how come the bouncer who just threw that guy out of the Ballroom isn't taking responsibility for what this guy is doing?" I think a lot of us just feel like having a cop or two roam the neighborhood on foot would encourage more civilized behavior. Not every little thing needs to be policed. We don't need a "Task Force". Just someone around when and if a scene starts getting out of hand. Single women and older people may not feel comfortable directly confronting a loud drunk frat boy who is walking with four of his friends. Yet we don't want to call the police every time someone is screaming outside our windows, because we do realize that in the grand scheme of things, it's a pretty trivial matter. It'd just be nice to have someone nearby to keep that guy in check in the first place. That's all. One or two cops putting in four hours a night on Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays isn't much to ask for. That's 24 hours of labor a week, and it'd make a HUGE difference.

Again, please don't think the residents of Fremont are all behind the FNC's decision to support the proposed ordinance. I never got an invitation to the meeting where they discussed that! Most of us are pro-nightlife and easygoing people willing to put up with MOST of what comes with the territory we love so much.

I live in Fremont. I don't mind the noise or the polite drunk people. I do mind the annoying drunk people, and I'm not a big fan of the urination, but I don't think that it's the clubs' responsibility to police the neighborhood. It's the police's responsibility to police the neighborhood.

Waitasecond... Fremont has nightclubs?

On July 21, 2006, Erica C. Barnett wrote:

If neighbors are upset about illegal behaviors committed by club patrons in the neighborhood, they should address those concerns to the police department, not the clubs.

But when the neighbors of Redwood (who, by the way, do not live "at the north end of the Pike-Pine hipster drinking circuit," or "on the once-seedy edge of the Pike/Pine drinking circuit," but rather two entirely residential blocks north of the east-west Pike-Pine corridor) called the police department to address their concerns with the behavior of Redwood's patrons (loud noise, littering, smoking within 25' of doors and windows, etc.), Ms. Barnett wrote:

Redwood is in a noisy, dense neighborhood, in a spot where drug users and alcoholics used to congregate. If anything, they’re improving the neighborhood, not damaging it. It’s a shame that a few disgruntled neighbors can threaten a business (and, for that matter, monopolize the city’s limited emergency resources) just because they don’t like a little noise in their vicinity.

So which is it, Erica: Should neighbors of these places call the police and drain our limited emergency resources, or should they demand that bars and nightclubs take responsibility for the actions of their often-over-served patrons?

Realist: I have no idea how much the Stranger makes from club revenues. I rarely read the music section. Ad revenues have absolutely no bearing on what stories I find interesting. It's laughable to me the conspiracies people perceive by flipping through the Stranger. If I were really so influenced by ads I never look at, wouldn't I'd be doing a flattering series of profiles of escorts?

Phil: Yes, Redwood's neighbors should call police IF THEY WITNESS ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR, as I said. Standing outside and talking, which is what most if not all of the calls to 911 have been in response to, is not an illegal behavior. Noise may be a nuisance, but it's not a reason to call 911.

Erica C. Barnett wrote:

Yes, Redwood's neighbors should call police IF THEY WITNESS ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR, as I said.

Do you mean illegal behavior such as smoking within 25' of a door/window or littering?

Noise may be a nuisance, but it's not a reason to call 911.

Noise above a certain sound level is more than just a nuisance; it's illegal. If someone witnesses a crime in progress, a call to 911 is warranted.

Seattle's "noise ordinance" (SMC 25.08) states:

25.08.500 Public disturbance noises.

It is unlawful for any person knowingly to cause or make, or for any person in possession of property knowingly to allow or originate from the property, unreasonable noise which disturbs another, and to refuse or intentionally fail to cease the unreasonable noise when ordered to do so by a police officer or, pursuant to subsection A of this section, when ordered to do so by a police officer or animal control officer. "Unreasonable noise" shall include the following sounds or combination of sounds:

[...]

E. Loud and raucous, and frequent, repetitive, or continuous sounds made by the amplified or unamplified human voice between the hours of ten (10:00) p.m. and seven (7:00) a.m. The content of the speech shall not be considered against any person in determining a violation of this subsection;

Now that we've clarified that neighbors of Redwood were justified in calling the police in response to the behavior of Redwood patrons on Redwood property, let's get back to my question: "Which is it, Erica: Should neighbors of these places call the police and drain our limited emergency resources, or should they demand that bars and nightclubs take responsibility for the actions of their often-over-served patrons?"

Erica -

I believe you when you say that you're not influenced by the ad revenues that your employer is reaping from those whose position you've been advocating. Perhaps you should offer the same consideration to our local politicians in the future before implying within your stories that they have been "bought off" any time they take a campaign contribution or meeting with a group representing interests contrary to your position. I've noticed this at least three times in the past two months in your stories/blog entries. It would make your generally very good reporting that much better.

Oh god, so what if Barnett's getting propped up by bar-owners on this story (like there's supposed to be some impartiality to the Stranger?) I really don't care. I happen to be both a homeowner and a barfly, so as a result, I talk to alot of servers and owners and have deeper sympathies for their struggles than I do for Fremont's joyless yuppies (who seem hellbent on making Fremont as beige as possible, I think to match the color palate of Adobe...) Talk to anyone in the industry and they're still trying to recover losses from the smoking ban...

Also -

The best thing people can do is boycott Freemont


Man.. i've so been looking for a reason to duck any reason to go there. Precisely because the place is overrun with smug professional couples with nothing better to do on a weekend than invade OUR neighborhoods (hmmm, and party with hipsters 10 yrs younger than them... Hmm interesting fact, just sayin)... Yeah, yeah - before I get a torrent of you lurking NIMBY's that furrow yer passive-aggressive patronizing brow and say "Well, if you lived here...tsk tsk" Well, I actually live in crack central and yes, I'd rather the police help reduce the amount of bullet's I need to dodge than help get Chet and Biff to stop pissing on your Chive Garden. But, allocation of the SPD is probably best left to the clubs and SPD to work out.

If you truly want to deaden the city's creative index, which I'm sure you'll do eventually, why not just zone your remaining land for more big awful retail to move in? It's not like you're going to get anything better in and I'm sure with more chain grocery stores, you'll get the bottle dumping noise to drown out the nightly stacatto of people leaving a bar...

Phil,

911 is for emergencies. If you witness someone committing the "crime" of talking too loudly on the street, you should call your local police precinct directly. If you witness a violent brawl, that's a 911 call.

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