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Monday, July 31, 2006

Real Israel

Posted by on July 31 at 11:06 AM

Last night, the reports by the major networks on the bombing of Qana made it apparent that Israel is losing this war. On NBC, for example, about five solid minutes was filled with graphic images of dead babies, their burned toys, their weeping mothers, their blood, and the scale of the destruction. At the end of the report, it was very quickly noted that, though the Israeli army regretted the deaths of the civilians, they had proof that Hezbollah was launching missiles from that site, and in so doing deliberately made the children a target of Israel’s powerful weapons. This is probably true, but, still, what Hezbollah has, and what Israel severely lacks, is a sense of the battle being fought on the level of the media—the news, the internet, the radio. Israel can rationalize the situation, show, as they did last night, that rockets were being launched from that site, but it is too late—nothing can beat the image of dead babies. No amount of reasoning can diminish the power of that image, and Hezbollah is aware of that. Rational Israel is fighting a real war; emotional Hezbollah is fighting a virtual war. And in our world, our global society of the spectacle, the army that locates the most important front to be the one in TV land, is the army that is on the path to victory.


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Hezbollah seems to purposely sacrifice civilian life to gain the world's sympathy. It does seem to be a long-term war strategy. Is this systemic sociopathy to put children in harm's way so that their televised burned bodies illicit sympathy from those of us who still value and protect civilian life? Or have we, the US and Israel, ruined the future for Muslims so much so that their young are worth more dead than alive?

one thing that struck me was that all of the evidence (infrared or nightvision videos of rockets being launched) were all "recorded within recent days" but were always qualified by the reporter as "not being video of the building in question" and were shot "several days prior". so really israel doesn't even have "proof" that the building in question *was* being used.

essentially all they can say is that hezbollah uses "civilian buildings" as cover... which makes israels statements about regretting civilian casualites ring hollow in the court of public opinion because the implication is that while they may regret the civilian casualities in this instance, you can bet that IDF bombs will target civilian structures again in the future.

Israel is being rational. The Stranger has been strongly pro-Israel and we need people like Charles speaking the truth to counter the conventional Seattle wisdom. Islamo-Terrorists will use irrational media grabbing tactics, while Israel is doing the honest thing, fighting a the real war to make everyone in America safer. If women and children die from Israel's bombs, the islamo-terrorists are to blame. Israel is a good, true country and America must support Israel no matter what.

There is no doubt that Hezbollah pursues a deliberate strategy of covering military installations with civilian buildings. Read this to see an example -- building a school and a house on top of a rocket bunker: http://judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0429

This is how they operate. Video of dead babies and weeping mothers is part of their military strategy. Their goal is annihilation of Israel, full stop. And they are operating at the behest of their masters in Iran. If Israel cannot drive Hezbollah out of Lebanon, they are doomed. And you and I are doomed as well. Weep for the dead babies if you want, but realize that it is Hezbollah that is causing it, not Israel.


There will be no victors in this war... only continual casualties and now we're to think it's for "TV Land"?

It's all getting sadder by the day. Unbearable.


I'm not defending human shields... if this is realy what's happening. I do offer this in rebuttal to Fnarf's pro Israel publication offering.

http://www.uruknet.com/?p=m25287&hd=0&size=1&l=e

Though these things are all true, they distract us from the real issue: that Israel has no right to empty south Lebanon of its population, to make a million people homeless, just because its leaflets say they must leave.

or for Human Rights Watch, which I presume to be neutral.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/30/lebano13881.htm

First. Israel is claiming that firing was coming from Qana, not from the building. That somehow gives the IDF license to wantonly bomb civilian targets on the off chance they are in some tenuous way connected to military ones.
One Israeli military spokesman is quoted as saying: "We don't know what the people were doing in the basement. It is possible they were being used as shields or being used cynically to further Hizbullah's propaganda purposes."
In fact there were still people there because the roads have been destroyed, the people are dirt poor, and one is as likely to be killed by attacks on the way out as one is in town.
Israeli drones had been through the area earlier in the day and the Israelis would have known full well that there were still large numbers of civilians in town.
The response to guerilla warfare is always going to have more collateral casualties than traditional warfare, so you can't really expect the IDF or the US army in Iraq to maintain the same regard for civilian life that they might be held to in a more traditional conflict. Still the excessive level of civilian casualties and the increasingly lame excuses on the part of the IDF, has rightly convinced most observers that they've gone too far.

Israel vs. Hezbullah (as well as Israel vs. Palestine) doesn't have any winners, only two losers locked in eternal battle.

I'm not pro or anti Israel (I don't think so, anyway), but I have several questions:

If Israel knew without a shadow of a doubt that this building was filled with innocent women and children, do you think they would have bombed it anyway? Even knowing that world opinion, already shaky in regard to Israel's actions during this war, would turn even more against them?

And why, of the admittedly few places to hide in Lebanon, would these civilians willingly take shelter anywhere near a missile launching site? Wouldn't they see the missiles firing and know that's a prime target for the bombs they seek to evade? Is it more believable that they were placed there, possibly against their will?

Isn't it also possible that, given how outmatched they are militarily and the demonstrated knack it has for placing potential targets near innocent civilians, that this whole affair was orchestrated by Hezbollah to maximize anti-Israeli sentiment?

Does it seem more believable to you that Israel went out of their way to kill babies and exact a massive cost on their legitimacy just to knock out a missile site?

I have to agree with a number of posters. They said we say video of a rocket launch NEXT TO an apartment building, and then the Israelis bombed THE APARTMENT BUILDING.

Class guerilla strategy is never to foul your own nest - you fire away from your location on purpose, knowing that by the time they react they won't be attacking you.

Using bombing missions on the "locations" where the missiles "were fired from" - given that these are man-portable fairly small rocket systems easily moved rapidly and hidden until/after deployment - is guaranteed to FAIL.

Just like planned bombing attacks against CLEARLY MARKED UN WATCH POSTS are guaranteed not to make any other country which has any intelligence believe you. Heck, the posts are even MARKED ON THE ISRAELI MISSION MAPS as UN posts!

Sooner this is over the better. Noone's helping Israel by shipping them arms and prolonging their dive into the pit of public hatred of their actions. Hezbollah is now much stronger as a result of this, sadly.

Israel is not to blame. If the Lebanese people are too stupid to get out of the way when a rocket is coming, they deserve a darwin award. Israel is rational, strong, and America's friend.

So much for the Cedar Revolution.

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=5039

Israel IS to blame. It's a common guerilla-warfare tactic nowadays to blend in amongst the civilian population. While Hezbollah is vile for intentionally targetting Israeli civilian populations, Israel's conduct is not much better because while I don't think it intentionally targets civilians, it's pretty reckless and negligent in its target selection. People are afraid to leave the towns because Israel has been riddling dozens of cars and minivans with bullets and missiles, killing innocent civilians. Israel knows this, but chooses to bomb away, likely killing innocent people, because it's cheaper and safer for themselves. But Israel knows FULL WELL they are likely killing bunches of innocent civilians.

And Israel ain't fighting this war to make America safer, that's a load of bull. If we benefit from them taking out terrorists, that's an added bonus, but they're fighting to make themselves safer, that's it. But sorry, never will I support ANY country "no matter what."

FNARF,
In general I happen to agree with you.
The only issue is whether the Israeli strategy is working -- whatever it is, and it is not completely clear that they have one -- or can work.
That's a real question.
I don't think it is working and yet I don't have any quick alternatives.

"I don't think it is working and yet I don't have any quick alternatives."

Well, Shit Man, hurry up and come up with something, so this thing can wrap up.

MUDEDE Wrote:
"And in our world, our global society of the spectacle, the army that locates the most important front to be the one in TV land, is the army that is on the path to victory."

An odd, shameful war indeed, Charles. A war where only civilians and their children are the victims? A war where soldiers safely engage these unarmed victims from the safety of being able to shoot and scoot, i.e. shoot and run away? There is only shame that comes with this regardless of who one supports. Both are forever guilty.

---Jensen

"If Israel cannot drive Hezbollah out of Lebanon, they are doomed. And you and I are doomed as well."

FNARF, I think it's too much to suggest that Hezbollah is going to bring about Israel's or our "doom". I think it is more and more clear that the Cedar Revolution is not over yet. The Syrians and Iranians are still in Lebonon and the Lebonese have more civil war ahead of them to earn self determination. We should back them in that fight, but just destroying Lebnanon drives more of it's citizens to support Hezbollah.

Even if Hezboallh hides behind women and children, Israel should not take the bait and give them the bloody pictures they want. It can be argued that many targets destroyed gained more support for Hezbollah then security for Israel. The people of Southern Lebanon are now seething, and that only serves to swell Hezboallah's ranks and make Northern Israel even more dangerous.

If you got stung by a bee from a beehive in your neighbors house, you don't burn your neighbor's house down. Any conflict a modern military like Israel, or us is going to fight is going to mirror these tactics from now on. They are not necessarily the tactics of despots (although Hezbollah is certainly not a benevolent group), they are the tactics of ANY armed force that is facing overwhelming disadvantages in fire power, information and technology on the battlefield. These tactics are working for insurgents and they will continue to until the more powerful forces in such conflicts adjust their tactics in response.

The Cedar Revolution is a chimera. Nothing happens in Lebanon, the southern half at least, without authorization from their real masters in Tehran. Syria being forced to leave left a power vacuum that no one can fill. Iran is using Hezbollah to fight a war against Israel on Lebanon's soil; they don't give a crap if Lebanon wants them to or not. Hezbollah moves their missiles around without asking anyone. The imaginary Lebanese government has no say in the running of their own country.


FARNF Wrote:
"The imaginary Lebanese government has no say in the running of their own country."

Just out of curiousity, Fnarf..Just who forced Syria out of Lebanon?

--Jensen

I thought it was Lebanese civilians, protesting. Not the Lebanese gov't.

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