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Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Re: Who Cares About the Music?

Posted by on July 25 at 13:25 PM

Fnarf wrote:

As near as I can tell, the criticisms levied against Mr. Schwarz are identical to those made for the last 70+ years. Too conservative, limited repertoire, keep the little old ladies happy. All still true, of course, though I don’t think traditionally it’s been the dowagers so much as the conservative business elite — the names at the top of the benefactors list tell you all you need to know about who they want to keep happy.
There may well be a “artistically adventurous” crowd in Seattle now, but the question is, can or will they write $10,000 checks?

Fnarf, your assumption of the timelessness of the situation is off. Never before has the Seattle Symphony looked so painfully behind other orchestras traditionally assumed to be unimportant, i.e., San Francisco and Los Angeles.

And never before has American classical music been in such a state of self-awareness and self-questioning. Not that you’d know anything at all was going on if all you did was attend Seattle Symphony concerts.

Read Wall Street Journal critic and composer Greg Sandow’s blog on http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/, or check out Joseph Horowitz’s 2005 book The Rise and Fall of Classical Music in America, or hell, go to an orchestral concert in any other city that is a part of this conversation—try the South Dakota Symphony in Sioux Falls, which has gained a serious following for performing major works by Pulitzer Prize winners on nearly every concert; or Cleveland, where the players go into the audience to talk to people after they play something new; or any number of places where the music directors actually host thoughtful discussions via blogs; or even the crusty New York Philharmonic, which has started to question its own habits by introducing new technologies (whether they work or not).

The conversation about classical music has markedly changed in the last few years. Most orchestras are well aware that something needs to change in the art form, or that something already has, and it needs to change back—like the fact that music should be played and talked about, not enshrined and worshiped. If the music is dead, what’s the point of writing the $10,000 checks anyway? The thoughtless repetitions that many of these concerts represent are an insult to the art form, and very much not the only way to do business. As other orchestras have proven very well these past years, it’s certainly not a choice between “risk,” that cliche that has become nothing more than an excuse for pablem, and survival.

The last time there was internal debate like this in American classical music might have been in 1869, after Patrick Gilmore’s Peace Jubilee in Boston, which Horowitz writes about in his book:

This account of classical music in the United States began with John Sullivan Dwight, whose worshipful promulgation of dead European composers defined “classical music” in contradistinction to popular culture generally and—in the case of the Peace Jubilee of 1869, with its anvil-pounding firemen—Patrick Gilmore specifically. Gilmore’s eclecticism—mixing high and low, New Worlds and Old—blithely embodied what classical music was not. Today, closing the circle, it is Dwight who signifies the past and Gilmore who suggests the future.

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both things could be happening, ya know.

This is a much more useful post, Jen. I was surprised to see the original post about Schwarz; although my hearing is poor, many years ago I was a subscriber to the symphony and thought that he had a decent reputation. So this dissatisfaction is news to me, but given the context of your second post it makes much more sense. It has nothing to do with the technical excellence of the Symphony (which I presume is still good) and everything to do with the lack of exploration.

Your second post deserves expansion, I think - I would like to know more about the state of classical music in this country and elsewhere, and how symphonies are learning to push their boundaries.

If the Stranger's writer's keep putting Fnarf on the main page of SLOG he's going to get a really big head.

Good stuff, and I admit that I pay zero attention to what classical music MEANS. I'm not interested, which is not the same thing as being not-interested in the music. I lost interest long ago, because in my mind it IS a dead art form. But I'm not a customer of the SSO, nor am I a critic, or customer of criticism, if you get what I'm saying.

But, if as you say the conversation has "changed in the past few years", it's not that surprising that The SSO isn't keeping up. It's not a nimble organization; it's not a nimble category of organization. You sound a tad impatient.

I agree that from the perspective of pro orchestras something has to change, as the time frame for "classical" recedes further and further into the past. But is it an artistic question or a business one? Can an orchestra survive, i.e., attract big donors, IN SEATTLE, with new ideas? Dunno. I think they could find a more interesting balance, and a broader audience for their recordings. I can't imagine why anyone would want to buy one of their CDs now!

The perception is that the big donors aren't interested in art music, they're interested in repeating what they know, and thereby achieving status.

But for me it's museum music. I'm not any more interested in hearing the new thing in orchestral music than I am in jazz, howevermuch I enjoy the Old Masters. That's not conservatism; it's just that I look elsewhere. Any Mozarts or Armstrongs alive today are working in some other medium. And the Culture that these art forms express is treading water; why shouldn't their music do the same?

Matt from Denver: you may not believe this, but I've been looking the mirror, and in the last two days I have gotten MUCH MORE ATTRACTIVE. It's fantastic!

Jen, you nailed this! SSO continues to drift into irrelevance unter the stewardship of Schwarz. The pressure to keep him on is not because of his programming choices but his ability to charm and raise money. This will prove to be a losing, long-term strategy.

Fnarf, I always thought you were a looker...

Yes, the SSO is rather challenged in this respect. But classical music is not limited to symphonic pieces. Seattle has a thriving community of composers and performers trying to keep classical music a living art form. For example, The Esoterics and Opus 7 are two choruses that just won national awards for their efforts (see http://www.ascap.com/press/2006/062306_chorus_america.html). Disclaimer: I'm the partner of Eric Banks, who directs The Esoterics. I think that this is the third time that The Esoterics has won the ASCAP award for adventurous programming. Both groups (as well as other local groups) regularly commission new works, often from local composers. So even if you give up on the SSO, don't give up on classical music or Seattle's scene. Chris DeLaurenti is in The Stranger every week to tip off readers to not-so-ho-hum options.

Fnarf -- one could argue that the reason you consider orchestral music to be museum music is because A) you haven't been presented with much contemporary orchestral music (no real surprise, considering symphonies' playlists) and/or B) that music hasn't been presented to you in a context that gives it relevance. Your perspective on classical music is the perfect example of exactly the struggle sympony orchestras are facing: How to continue to capture a young audience (i.e., how not to stagnate and become museum music) without losing the monied donors who want the old chestnuts. There are clearly ways of doing this, but it ain't easy.

And this:
"Any Mozarts or Armstrongs alive today are working in some other medium."

... is definitely arguable, though I suspect others would do a better job of it than I could.

you ought to take a closer look at fnarf, he's quite a dancer and performer as well...stunning record collector as well...

Jen,

Thanks for this post. It's rare to see the Stranger taking an interest in classical music. And that’s a shame, because when you do, you come at it with the same razor sharp and salty wit that you slice everything else with.

I'm a big fan, a HUGE fan, of classical music. I work in the field, and I have a big collection of recordings, spanning the entire cannon with a heavy dose of works written in the last 20 years.

Classical music, either ridiculed by the hipster set as a crusty white man’s boring hobby, or gasped over and though of as “too hard for me to understand,” gets a raw deal when it’s discussed. Which is sad, because a lot of it is a plain rollicking good time.

Everyone likes to talk about how our orchestras need to connect with younger audience members, need to lead the drive for new music. Everyone talks about how classical music is in trouble.

Chief among these critics is Norman Lebrecht, whose histrionics include dire predictions for the classical recording industry and the soul of the world. Yes, the classical recording industry is in trouble – and for a simple reason: we’ve got hundreds of recordings of the Beethoven symphonies, by the greatest masters that ever lived. Why take a chance on some new conductor when you can go home with a rock-solid performance by Klemperer or von Karajan or Bernstein for $12?

Classical music labels are profitable because of the low overhead of reissuing the greats. But the greats aren’t the only ones making money. A whole host of boutique labels pump out new and innovative music all the time. Take Timpani’s excellent set of the Xenakis’ works for large orchestra, for example – it’s music that sells well, and most orchestra subscribers have never heard of it.

Now, about those live audiences? They’re bigger than ever. At the American Symphony Orchestra League conference this year, we learned that classical audiences have never been larger. Over 400,000 people a year attend the Symphony and Opera in this town every year. That’s more people than see all the theatre in Seattle combined.

And it’s not just the old folks. At Cleveland, the audiences are getting younger and younger, thanks to the infusion of new music at the hands of their exciting new conductor, Franz Wesler-Most. In San Francisco, Michael Tilson-Thomas has assumed the status of a rock star – his face is all over Civic Center.

So, what’s going on? I think a lot of the supposed discomfort with “new music” has a lot to do with the prejudices audiences developed toward “new music” over the last 40 years. People got scared off from the new by the likes of Schoenberg and his sidekicks Berg and Webern. Their twelve-tone and atonal works rub a lot of folks the wrong way and programming any but their earliest and most conservative pieces is a sure fire way to empty a hall.

But what’s happening now? The composer Messiaen is having his Mahler moment – he’s gaining his long-deserved embrace by the cannon. And with him are coming a host of others: Berio, Boulez, and Ligeti are on the climb. John Adams and Thomas Ades enjoy incredible cache for living composers – they probably get more play than Stravinsky or Copland did when they were alive.

What can we do to help this along? We can stop denying access to casual listeners. We can stop telling people that they don’t have the tools to access the great masters. We can stop pretending that new music is too difficult for the masses. We can stop pretending that classical music is any better or more revelatory than other high arts.

As far as programming, I think isolating new music into occasional festivals is a disservice to the art. New music should be heard alongside the old, in regular subscription concerts. What better side-by-side than Xenakis’ Jonchaies and the Eroica? Or, what about intermingling the Ligeti etudes with Liszt’s?

It’s too bad that many classical listeners are snobs – including me. In our glee and masturbatory culture-pride, we sometimes forget that we didn’t know our Schoenberg from our Strauss once, and we forget that pompous assery is one of the reasons classical music turns people off. We sometimes need to get knocked around.

At the ASOL conference in LA, Peter Sellars gave the keynote. Esa-Pekka Salonen had just talked about the European tours he’d taken he LA Philharmonic on, and Peter asked him, “So, you’ve toured Europe. Have you toured LA?”

And then, later in his speech, Sellars pleaded with us: “Please, do not let classical music become the last bastion of white male fascism. It’s too good for that.”

I'm afraid the only way for an orchestra to capture my attention would be for them to pick up drums and guitars and play pop songs on them. Hey, it's what I like. Actually orchestras can play pop music, but it's the pop that's got to be there. Classical music lost a lot of live relevance when it separated from pop, a zillion years ago.

You know, I don't think this disease is limited to the symphony.

Since moving to Seattle 5 years ago, I think I've gone to more major cultural events in classical music, opera, theater than anytime since I lived on the T-line in Boston - yet I've enjoyed them less.

Others seem to feel the same way.

I think it has to do with how important big donors / schmoozing them / the importance of "development" (i.e., fundraising) departments has become to the establishment arts community - and how bureaucratic the arts have become as a result.

I get contacted all the time by the symphony, opera, various theaters to subscribe, become a member, make a supplementary donation - but never about what I think of their efforts, how they could improve them, what I'd like to see - and whether I'd like to get involved in their creative side, if only as a captive audience / focus group member.

On the other hand, the fringe community does it all for love - self-love, for the most part. I don't think I've ever gone.

You'd think Seattle would have a strong "off Broadway," but not quite fringe community - together with something like the Public Theater in NYC.

But instead outfits like the ACT try to ape the Rep, and pay the fiscal consequences, nearly going down in flames.

Maybe it's just too expensive to do professional arts anymore.

Let's hope amateurs emerge to pick up the slack.

Or maybe I'm just getting old - too old for those discriminatory 30-something clubs the development departments have started, angling for young dot commers money as well...

Obviously, Fnarf, I can't convince you to like a kind of music you're dead-set against, but I will say that you've got your facts wrong -- classical music never overtly separated from pop. Mozart's chamber pieces were the popular music of his time, and what you're calling pop is either an offshoot of classical music or, more likely, blues-derived, as nearly all pop music is. And obviously, the blues' evolution is parallel with the evolution of white European classical music.

On top of which, there's a lot more crossover than you might imagine -- Sigur Ros, for instance, makes very orchestral pop music, and you should check out Alex Ross' or Christopher O'Riley's takes on Radiohead. In other words, contemporary classical, that lovely oxymoron, can be (IMO) just as relevant and entertaining and interesting and accessible as your favorite pop song. Well, OK, maybe not just as accessible, but …

In fairness to Schwarz, the Symphony as an institution is deeply dysfunctional and has been unwilling to deal with that fact for the 20 years I've been in Seattle. As the public face of SSO, Schwarz has been a convenient lightning-rod.

However much he personally may want to do new music (and he does, even if you disagree with his tastes), the organization wants/needs sold-out halls. It's ironic that his signature achievement, the new Hall, has only exacerbated that conflict, thanks to the Symphony doing ever more concerts in the face of slack demand.

Given the history, it's probably damaging to retain him -- but it's unlikely that a new conductor would make that much of a difference in an organization for whom polarization has become business-as-usual.

The most interesting take I ever read on this discussion is Who Killed "Classical Music? Maestros, Managers and Corporate Politics" by Norman Lebrecht, Birch Lane Press, 1997. It's a tome, so be warned!

Right - corporations are the biggest donors.

And do you think they want anything other than museum pieces?

Don't want to stir up the masses...

Will someone please explain to me how Gerry Scwarz is ruining the symphony?

How do people think these organizations can support themselves? They need money (especially when musicians are pricing themselves so high above market demand for their services).

The opera has programmed one of their more boring seasons in recent memory, but are recording more subscriptions than they have since 9/11.

I think these comparisons to west coast cities just aren't fair. I mean, San Francisco and Los Angeles have bigger markets.

And if you want to talk about artistic strides, just look at how fast they ran Pamela Rosenberg out of town in SF just for trying to do something innovating in the opera scene.

You can argue Schwarz' merit as a conductor, but the organization makes a trade off - he keeps them in a better position with the community (he fundraises like a madman). The board has been pretty clear that they want him to stay.

How does getting rid of him, bringing in someone who's going to alienate the base, and add even more empty seats going to help?

I mean, did any of you go to the made in america concerts? They didn't even open the upper tiers.

It sounds to me like you just decided to hop on a bandwagon about some news story to stir up a controversy when no one seems to see what they're even supposed to be upset about.

Musicians *rarely* have a less than adversarial relationship with their conductors. Maybe if they had an attitude adjustment and thought more about making art than holding a grudge against a person, we'd have a better quality product.

I mean, why is no one talking about the musicians culpability here? I guess they just get to go home to their multi-million dollar homes and sit back collecting on their six figure pay checks with no questions asked.

Who says corporations are the biggest donors? That's just not true.

Corporate support of the arts has been steadily declining. Most of the large organizations in this city make 70% or more of their contributed income through individual donations.

That might have been true in the late 90's, but it's just not anymore.

Well, if San Francisco and LA are doing better, what did they do right, besides to hire Esa-Pekka Salonen and Michael Tilson Thomas? What was so different there that caused the organization to take a chance on a younger, more daring conductor? Hiring and supporting the conductor are merely the result of an organization's confidence.

Did those orchestras somehow escape these evil, dimly-lit "corporate interests?" Are they utterly immune to the catch-all "dysfunction?" I don't think so.

It's not impossible for these instutitions to change. Take a look, for instance, at Pacific NW Ballet. They're figuring out a way to pack 'em in to the Nutcracker, pull in some reliable museum-piece dollars, and then hire some young fresh talent at the head and produce new, interesting, even relevant work.

Jen, how about a longer investigative piece? I'd be interested in seeing something about how we ended up this way (as opposed to going the SFO route) in The Stranger. What were some of the alternatives to re-hiring Schwartz? No one else is going to do it in this town, at least no one who can get this many eyeballs reading and engaged.

And if you do write it,please...could you not rely on stereotypes of our fair city (you know...we were so provincial for so long, so very rain-drenched and anti-social, and now we just can't break out of our pattern and get all "world class," blah blah blah). Not that you would, but...it just seems to write itself, and the eyes just glaze over.

Operagrrl says, "I guess they just get to go home to their multi-million dollar homes and sit back collecting on their six figure pay checks with no questions asked."

Say it with me: strawman.

The musicians are hardly rolling in dough. Check out this late-2005 Seattle Times story, which says that that the musicians' minimum annual salary is $76K. That may seem like a lot to your average joe making $30K a year, but it's hardly as though they're gleefully rolling around on piles of greenbacks in mansions.

How exactly are musicians making what seems to be a relatively fair wage for a big city orchestra contributing to the stagnation of the artform? Try driving 30 miles south -- the Northwest Sinfonietta is doing more interesting things musically speaking, and those are players who get paid a pittance.

I grew up on Bach and Beethoven and would gladly go to more orchestra concerts, but the sad fact is, there's just nothing on the program to keep me interested. I skimmed the program for the Made in America concerts and yawned - I mean, if you're going to program new music, make it new music. If we're talking about an aging audience, it's because, as Gomez and Fnarf are saying, orchestras have obsoleted themselves.

Yeah, you're right JW - PNB is doing some exciting stuff, while preserving the best of their existing traditions.

I guess whatever the tenor of the times, or of the city, it finally does come down to who's hired as artistic director, and whether they take some risks that pay off - or don't.

But such great directors are hard to come by - and when they succeed, they might soon be off to New York or other greener pastures.

Maybe it's about time the big arts organizations around here started solliciting input from their members, subscribers, ticket buyers - or better yet, from the people who'd like to come, if only the productions were more interesting.

As OperaGrrl says, small donors account for most of the contributions.

Why are specific projects only pitched to the millionaires and corporations merely for approval, if their flashy donations only amount to 30% of the total?

Maybe they should start shopping their seasons and special projects to the rest of us, before deciding on a schedule.

Mahlerite: great post. Minor quibbles -- you want "canon" and "cachet" instead of "cannon" and "cache". But your points are great.

Superfurryanimal: The "pop" of classical is exactly what I was referring to. Cab drivers in Milan still whistle Verdi arias. Nobody whistles John Adams, for better or worse. Modern classical is divorced from the pop tradition, which is what I said.

As for what kinds of pop I should be listening to, I am quite aware of pop artists using classical ELEMENTS, but they are not playing classical MUSIC; they're playing pop. Just because Magnetic Fields have a cello doesn't make them classical. As for "blues-based", there are few tropes that are more misused. The impact of the blues on pop music is both grossly overstated and, usually, a bad idea. It's more accurate to say that the garbage stew that gets called "blues" today shares some common roots with pop music in older forms. I'd prefer something like "vernacular" music to "blues", and "blues" excludes most of the interesting bits.

Careful what you wish for - what if they focus-grouped the symphony and what we got was 6 months of The Messiah and 6 months of Beethoven's 9th? Not that those aren't great music, but...

Maybe what you meant (and what I want to emphasize) is that the Symphony is lagging when it comes to one extremely important thing: developing NEW AUDIENCES. Unlike 30 or even 15 years ago, fewer people with the time and money to go to a concert grew up with the cultural imperative to care about classical music. But the thing is - people hitting their thirties and forties might be finding less and less down at the Crocodile and Chop Suey that corresponds to their sensibilities. So, what is the SSO doing to make themselves attractive to them? Who's coming up with the ideas?

Did anyone else read about the WolfGANG in a SSO program and wince with embarrassment for whoever conceptualized it? Did any of the legion of gay fans intuit that they were not included in the organization's horrifically "cute" singles night? If people think G. Schwartz has a tin ear, they oughta take a critical look at the marketing department down there.

Insofar as "pop bands using classical elements" as opposed to being "classical music played by pop bands" goes - yeah, it's been going on for a hundred years or so. At some point, "classical music" became an academy, and suddenly "composers" became segregated from "songwriters."

However, does the SSO need to perpetuate this? Wouldn't it be terribly interesting if, say, the Black Cat Orchestra opened for the SSO, and the program was Kurt Weill songs re-interpreted, and they did the concert in the lobby cabaret-style? And then the week following have a traditional concert? I'm not a professional musician, but even I can tell you that it's going to take this kind of gesture: get off the podium, explore "casualwear," explore, well, what's been happening in the world since everyone stopped having to wear a hat or a tie or an ankle-length skirt when appearing in public.

And how about that Kent Nagano? Anybody got his number?

Fnarf -- Have to admit you have me confused. On the one hand, you're admitting the pop elements of classical music (cab drivers whistling Verdi), and on the other hand, you're talking about how classical music is completely divorced from popular music. I just don't agree.

If you're going to talk to me about the dominance of pop music, the "pop tradition," which is, let's just say for argument's sake, 50 years old ... well, you won't get any disagreement. But when you try to make the case that, because Louis Armstrong (who died a mere 35 years ago) ain't around, jazz is over and all great jazz musicians are working in other art forms, it seems ridiculous. Same is true for Mozart -- there was plenty of music composed early in this century that A) was ground-breaking at the time and B) even you would likely classify as classical and staid these days (Stravinsky, for instance).

To dismiss Adams and his compatriots as "museum music" merely because they work (horror of horrors!) with a symphony orchestra is just silly. Give it 50 years, and we'll see whether Adams doesn't join the cab-driver-whistle canon along with Stravinsky and Verdi.

In suggesting relationships between classical and pop musicians, I wasn't arguing that the Magnetic Fields are classical (duh). I was indicating that what you consider classical music and what you consider pop music are actually not as diametrically opposed as you claim, with the added suggestion that perhaps, if you (and others) didn't have such a virulent reaction to a gaggle of black-suited musicians sitting in a symphony hall, you might be able to appreciate the more pop forms in contemporary classical.

And finally, blues in pop -- and this could be an endless discussion -- it's more or less indisputable that the ur-rock/pop musicians, the musicians who influenced everyone who came after them (Elvis, Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, The Beatles, etc.) were, especially in their early years, playing almost purely straight-up blues. Hell, I'd wager dollars to donuts that nearly any popular musician you can name from 1950-1975 would explicitly acknowledge the tremendous influence the blues had on them. Or vernacular music, if you prefer -- I'm referring to the standard blues progression/scale.

Find me an indie rock guitar player today who, when asked, would deny that Eric Clapton, B.B. King, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Elvis had an influence on him (and yes, sadly, it's almost always him), and I'll show you a guitar player who's lying.

JW - no, I don't want focus groups - or the WolfGang or similar 30-something party groups at other local arts institutions.

No, I think what I'm after is more opportunity for involvement by the well-schooled local fans of a particular art in developing the seasons of local non-profit art institutions.

Why not simply advertise an "all truly interested parties" meeting where you lay out what you're thinking of doing, sollicit suggestions from the audience - many of whom may know more about what's going on around the country or the world in that particular art - as to what they'd like to see come to town - and maybe even involve them in contacting people who could bring it here.

Why should corporations get the say so on what projects get produced as a sidelight of their advertising budgets? Let's democratize the arts in Seattle a bit more - or at least, open the playing field to enthusiasts who know what's out there and what would be cool to see.

Maybe we'd have to form a group to have enough clout for this. Maybe The Stranger should convene a "Stranger critics and readers" group of arts afficianados who meet together to decide agendas, then contribute as a group to performning arts organizations, in exchange for doing/bringing to Seattle the kind of stuff we want to see?

No, the formative artists of rock'n'roll, who are not necessarily all that interesting, were not playing "straight blues". You might get away with calling it "rhythm and blues", which is a different animal, and in many cases they were playing, or thought they were playing, something more like country, which is the flip side of that coin. But there are a zillion other vernacular traditions besides the blues. Really, the blues tradition in rock is incredibly boring. And those seminal artists frankly SUCKED when they were just thumping out R'n'B. Only when they opened up to the pop tradition, which is a a much, much broader folk tradition (not to be confused with "folk music") mixed in unsavory but thrilling ways with trashy commercial traditions, did pop music as we know it now come about.

Everybody likes to talk about how Elvis "sang black" but what they usually forget to mention is that the singer he WANTED to be most was Dean Martin, who was imitating Bing Crosby, who was imitating Louis Armstrong, ad infinitum. That's just so much more interesting a set of digressions. Don't gimme that Rolling Stone History of Rock rubbish, it doesn't tell the story. Any modern guitarist who is "influenced" by Eric Clapton or B. B. King is a guitarist who needs to be unplugged, packed in a crate, and dropped into the sea.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that when i say "pop" I'm talking about Rawk'n'roll. Very much not so. Indiepop, not indie rock. And your cutoff date of 1975 is just when things started to get interesting!

I DO like classical music; though I must say I'm most interested when it crosses boundaries into folk tradition -- like Bartok and his weird "Gypsy" tonalities. I understand the art music idea. But what Mozart was getting up to doesn't work today; sticking to those forms just doesn't ring my bell -- I'd rather listen to Mozart. Or Louis Armstrong. My reaction isn't "violent"; I'm just not that keen. Especially the live-performance symphony-hall aspect of it Because that's what we're really talking about here -- how to make the symphony hall relevant, not make classical music relevant. Schwarz isn't a classical music proselytizer; he's a symphony orchestra director.

You made a very interesting and telling slip there, though -- you said "early in this century". You mean "last century". Early in this century is TODAY. Stravinsky is ancient history. That's one of the things I like about pop -- moves fast. Nimble. Frequently looks embarrassing as hell a few years later, but then comes back around again. I don't know how to inject that energy into classical music, but if we're ragging on Schwarz for not doing it, I have to say that it's extraordinarily difficult.

"No, the formative artists of rock'n'roll, who are not necessarily all that interesting, were not playing 'straight blues.'"

And

"Any modern guitarist who is 'influenced' by Eric Clapton or B. B. King is a guitarist who needs to be unplugged, packed in a crate, and dropped into the sea."

Oh, Fnarfster. I don't want to get too off-topic here, so I'll just end with this.

I presume you would consider Death Cab for Cutie to be "indie-pop"? And you would presumably acknowledge that band's (and pretty much any other indie-pop band's) massive debt to The Beatles? (DCFC has explicitly cited The Beatles as their biggest influence and named their band after a Beatles lyric.) And presumably you'd concede that John Lennon was massively blues-influenced? Yet you'd deny the blues' influence on Death Cab and indie-pop? It's not Gibbard saying "Clapton is my biggest influence," but it's a mere two steps from, say, Muddy Waters to Chris Walla.

And yes, sorry, I made a semantic mistake. A mistake of half a dozen years. Do those six years invalidate my point? Nope.

Who cares? Orchestras have nothing to do with the majority of serious music being done these days anyway.

The mink stoles and pearls have their sacred space; the chauffeurs and violists have a job. Tonality is safe from the vandals; Ferde Groffe's ghost dreams happily in the Grand Canyons of mediocrity.

Superfurry: I wish there was another way to carry on this discussion, but there isn't. Suffice it to say: it's not that you're wrong, it's that you're only describing about 1/10th of the picture. And no, Death Cab is not indiepop, or worth listening to. Beatles yes, but again: they are interesting in almost perfectly inverse proportion to their "bluesiness".

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