I just came back from a wedding in the east coast this past weekend. It was an incredible wedding because never have I seen two people so obviously sound like they have found each other's soulmates before.

There's no point in me telling you guys what sexes the partners were. What was important was that they managed to do this, quite emotionally, while succinct avoiding the use of the word "God" by deciding to write their own vows to each other, only to be revealed at the final ceremony.

The fact thst is took this long for me to see a marriage that finally simulated what "marriage should be all about" is really telling on how trivialized marriage has become in the Western world.

There are marriages that work, obviously. But so many people are raping the institution via stories like Dan quotes above, that I can't really be bothered to get too upset about the WA court decision anymore. It's like crying about a court decision favoring certain preservatives over others in Cheez Whiz.

Marriage, despite the good examples thereof, has run its course.

Civil unions, on the other hand, or at least the type of unions that actually can grant basic partners' rights are well worth fighting for... Marriage is (almost) dead, long live civil unions.

Dan, are you mocking post-partum depression and post-partum psychosis? Because I feel like you are. And that's really, really low.

I don't think he's mocking it at all. Seems like he's pointing out that people with severe mental issues are considered perfectly fine legal guardians of their children as long as one is a man and the other is a woman -- because if they were the same sex, than it would be "wrong".

The Andrea Yates situation is a horrible tragedy and cannot be equated with the decision of the Washington State Supreme Court.

The court made a decision based on specious assumptions about procreation and the needs of children. It is very sad to see that they are so out of touch.

However, Andrea Yates experiences debilitating psychosis as a result of prolonged and untreated post-partum depression. The jury's decision is a VICTORY for mental health advocates and to rebuke the underhanded lies used to convict her in the first trial. It is fundamentally wrong for the State to execute anyone and doubly so when the person was a minor at the time the crime was perpetrated, severely mentally ill, or otherwise mentally disabled.

Exactly. Texas' idiotic insanity defense laws put her on death row. At least they got some sanity back by doing what they should have done a long time ago -- admitted that she was criminally insane and had no control when she drowned thos kids.

Still, to use Andrea Yates in this argument is spurious and Godwin-esque. She did not develop PPD and PPP until AFTER she was married and had kids. To truck her into this argument is idiotic and demeans all the work done over the last 20 years to understand what causes PPD and PPP and how to treat it. These women end up being perfectly suitable mothers. But no, this is yet another case of letting breeders with unknown mental health problems at the time of marriage breed.

I can think of a hundred stereotypes you can use in this argument against the idiocy of the majority decision, but Andrea Yates isn't one of them, and I'd appreciate Dan pulling this one back. Surely you can go dig up some crack whore or incestuous father.

Sorry, DW—I'm pointing out the ludicrousness of the assumption that informs so much of the anti-gay marriage rhetoric. Children need a mother and a father! A married mother and father! And if they’ve got that, well then, they’re gonna just fine.

I do these “Every Child Deserves a Mother and Father� posts from time to time to demonstrate just how insulting and baseless these arguments are. That a child has parents that are married and of the opposite sex does not guarantee that the child has fit parents or that the child is safe.

Her asshole ex-husband also remarried recently. God (or whatever) help his new wife and any children they have together.

I think Dan has it right (more or less). The thing you folks are forgetting is that it was POSTPARTUM depression, not just regular depression, that led her to kill the kids. The issue isn't whether it should be a man and woman raising the family, but whether women should be allowed to be near their own offspring after giving birth.

Personally, I'm in favor of having only gay men (as couples) raising children so that there is no postpartum issue.

If I recall correctly; Dan, you have a child don't you? Have you ever had postpartum depression? Ever thought about killing your own child?

Just wait until s/he is a teenager... : )

Speaking of post-partum depression, I’ve noticed a rise in extreme punishments for young women who abandon their babies after childbirth. There was that case years ago about the teenage girl who abandoned her baby at the prom and then situations like the ones in these links. While I’m not advocating their behavior, it’s pretty obvious that you’re not mentally fit if you abandon your baby in a bathroom at the prom or at Walmart. Or if you abandon your baby in garbage and then bleed all the way back to your house. These women are so screwed up that they can’t even rationally try to cover their tracks. And the appropriate punishment is life in prison? Seems a bit extreme and class-discriminatory. If these women had access to psychiatrists or other health providers, would they do the same?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/278053_babyfound19.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1650094/posts

Yes, Darnee, you're right. More teenage girls are being punished more severely for reacting irrationally to having a baby. Realistically, in most circumstances teenagers are not "mentally fit" to be parents. It's part of the on-going legal shift to the right and punish girls for having sex. Which is why sex education, contraception, and access to safe abortions should be fundamental. You see, one of the consequences of heterosexual sex may be unintended pregnancy - of course, this happens whether the people involved are married or not.

The thing is, Dan, that Andrea Yates demonstrated psychosis before she became pregnant with her youngest child. Her husband and doctor both knew it and did nothing to help her. Andrea Yates is as much a victim of the patriarchal power-structure that says all women should have kids and love it as homosexual couples who are told that they are unfit parents.

dewsterling: And it's that exact same 'patriarchal power-structure' that deems the wholesomeness of a traditional marriage based home to be the best enviroment for the children.

It's clear as day...

Let's get organize and take ON these fundamentalist, rigid rights-grabbing Xtians and give them HELL. I don't read the bible, I don't believe that crap about 'GOD' whoever that is, telling us all that marriage is only for a 'man and a woman'. If 'GOD' wants me to know what he thinks he can damn well come and talk to me, instead of using pathetic right wing mouthpieces. Meantime, it's time to rise up to the Xtian Taliban in the US and let them know we don't want to live in a religious dictatorship that runs the needs of it's citizens last and it's will to abuse of power and control first.

Bombing other countries is WRONG.
So is denying individuals access to social structures that strengthen relationships and communities.

No marriage, no sex, no abortions, no thought, no debate, no scientific research: that's the Xtian Taliban.
Let's take 'em out.

who's on Board?

Don't get too discouraged Washingtonians.

Here's what you can do. Send thousands of LGBT people up to our US/CAN border on the same day and jam it up by trying to cross all at once into Canada to get married in a public park right beside the border (we'll provide the gay priests). Organize that and we'll try to get a thousand or more from up here to meet you on the otherside, or maybe we will try to cross into USA to come pick you up and tie up the border on our side. This mass protest will make national news and tie up the border for a day. If we do this on Labour Day it will have a dramatic effect.

Don't get too discouraged Washingtonians.

Here's what you can do. Send thousands of LGBT people up to our US/CAN border on the same day and jam it up by trying to cross all at once into Canada to get married in a public park right beside the border (we'll provide the gay priests). Organize that and we'll try to get a thousand or more from up here to meet you on the otherside, or maybe we will try to cross into USA to come pick you up and tie up the border on our side. This mass protest will make national news and tie up the border for a day. If we do this on Labour Day it will have a dramatic effect.