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Friday, July 7, 2006

Critical Evidence

Posted by on July 7 at 11:50 AM

Given that K.C. Sheriff’s detectives arrested Zack Treisman for a serious felony (assaulting an officer), it’s a little curious that the K.C. Prosecutor’s office didn’t move forward yesterday with any charges. Treisman’s arraignment was cancelled yesterday, and the K.C. prosecutor’s office told me they need more time to review the case.

Review the case? K.C. Sheriff spokesman Rodney Chinnick sounded pretty convinced when I spoke to him earlier this week (and pretty exercised) that Treisman had “choked and punched an officer.”

Treisman is the Critical Mass cyclist who—thinking a fellow biker was being attacked by a citizen—wrestled with what turned out to be an undercover K.C. detective.

Perhaps the reason the prosecutor’s office has hit pause is this: Treisman’s attorney, David Speikers, has over 20 sworn statements from eye witnesses who contradict the K.C. sheriff’s account that the the plain clothes detectives identified themselves before tackling biker Jace Brien.

Here’s some typical testimony from a Critical Mass rider and witness named Mike Hahn:

“As the riders corked, I could see the driver of the van (white male, large build, blondish hair and facial hair) shout at them and throw his hand up in the air. He then almost immediately flung his door open violently and charged toward the corking cyclists…The van driver was yelling at the cyclists very loudly, and seemed to be enraged. The driver had not identified himself as an officer. I could see that there were other occupants in the van who had not yet stepped outside. All (including the driver) were dressed casually with no visible indication of their status as officers.

What’s notable about the testimony is that none of it mentions the siren blasts or air horn blasts that the Sheriff’s office assured me were sounded at three different times before Brien was tackled.

In fact, one new surprise witness—not a member of the Critical Mass ride, but a motorist named Kathleen Ridihalgh who claims to have been stopped behind the unmarked Sheriff’s van at the Belltown intersection (Vine St. & Western) where the arrests took place—provided this testimony after hearing the Sheriff’s office account in the news:

“The van went into the path of bicycles and the van occupants jumped out fast and aggressive. I did not hear a siren. At that point I thought, ‘should we get out and help the bicyclists?’”

At a Critical Mass rally yesterday outside the K.C. jail, I spoke to Katherine Bauman, a 19-year-old biker who had “corked” the intersection with Brien. She said the van honked and honked, but there was no siren blast. “They honked and charged out of the car,” she says. “They said nothing official [before tackling Brien]. He said, ‘get the fuck out of the intersection.’ Other bikers were yelling for the police.”

I asked the K.C. prosecutor’s office if the overwhelming testimony had a role in their decision to postpone the arraignment hearing. Spokesman Dan Donohoe said he couldn’t comment on evidence, but said they felt comfortable taking more time because Treisman was not a flight risk.

I think part of the confusion of the detective’s identity comes down to the fact that their badges looked more like hiphop accoutrements than police I.D. One witness writes: “Attacker #1 was a male caucasion, extremely large stocky build, with…flashy jewelry including chains and rings, baggy ‘gangsta’ clothing…”

In the photos I’ve seen, the officers don’t have flashy jewelry, but rather, huge badges on long necklaces.


CommentsRSS icon

Clearly King County is in serious CYA mode right now.

Have we not wasted enough time on this Issue?

Two geeks got beat up, so what....

This is seriously fucked.

I still cannot believe that KC hasn't issued an immediate and complete apology. There was nothing professional about the detectives behavior during or after the incident. It's bad enough to have a *cop* blow up with anger (a "thinking cop" detective no less) over what amounted to a minor inconvinence. Now they've compounded this by LYING in an official report.

An apology is the least of it. By my count, the detectives broke two central responsibilities: to maintain calm and safety in *all* situations and not lie on reports! The detectives should be suspended (at least) or fired for this.

Sue Rahr should be booted out for this as well, given the lame circle-the-wagons response.


An Apology? Are you kidding me?

How abour Critical mass apologies for creating this situation in the first place?

I think ken Schram says it best...

"Situations" happen all the time. This is a major US city. Far more frustrating situations happen to cops all the time than being delayed for, what, 2 minutes max by a bunch of bicyclists.

Profesisonal cops do not blow their tops. Ever. They cannot loose their temper, and if they do, they are no longer cops. They're thugs.

And professional detectives do not lie on official reports or to procecutors. Their entire *job* is to honestly and accurately report on situations under oath.

They should be fired, and KC should apologize for their behavior.

Hmm.... Bicylists v. Cops. It's hard to know who to root for in this case. On the one hand there is a group that feels they can do whatever they feel like in the name of public good, and the other group is, well, cops. Hard to pick the lesser of 2 evils. The only thing that could make this story better is if the Critical Mass "social statement/protest/pain in the ass" was disrupted by bike cops. And by the way these morons aren't bikers. Bikers ride Harleys, wear leather, and can keep up with the flow of traffic!


I find it Ironic that you are screaming about people acting professionally when dealing with such a sophmoric group as Critical Mass.

Don't you get sick of jackasses such as these disrupting your daily life with this kind of crap?

It's particularly important for cops to act professionally when dealing with jackasses. I might even guess that cops have to deal with jackasses (or people acting like jackasses) more often than most people.

As professionals they are required to behave responsibly.

I could be convinced that in the heat of the moment they let things get away from them (as cops are human too), but to lie on a report days later? That is inexcusable, particularly for a pair of detectives.

Do you think it's ok for detectives to lie on official reports to government procecutors so long as the subjects are "jackasses" in the minds of the cops? That's purjury, by the way. How about planting evidence? They crossed a line. Why can't you admit that?

What about the SPD? They manage to deal with this same group every month, no-one gets thrown to the ground and no false reports get written. They calm down the drivers, cyclists, re-establish traffic lanes for drivers and protect the safety of the cyclists. See, same "jackasses" with professional cops and things turn out better.

Dear Someguy:

Ken Schram hasn't said anything "best." Ever.

The photos I've seen show only one officer wearing a badge. He was the second one out of the van, and only emerged after the chaos was in full-swing. Josh, please retract or post the photo you're talking about.

Wow, Someguy, i'm glad you have such high standards for police officers. I guess as long as the person they beat the crap out of is someone who annoys you it's all good. Regardless of what you think of Critical Mass, the conduct of these deputies should be alarming to anyone with a scrap of sense. Clearly thuggish cops beating up 18 year olds for traffic violations gets your rocks off.

Irritating and futile as the actions of the Critical Mass cyclists might be to some, the fact remains that cops, apparently without identifying themselves as officers of the law, leapt from a van and put the beat-down on civilians who were committing, at most, a minor civil infraction. Don't most reasonable people think there are better ways to deal with this type of infraction than making the cyclist eat pavement? Certainly SPD has found much better ways of dealing with this.

Look, cops have a shit job. I'm the first person to recognize that, and sympathize. But it is an inescapable fact that they are also in a job that requires them to be cautious, prudent, and not erupt in sudden road-rage, 'roid-rage frenzies on civilians. If we empower our officers of the law to do whatever they please to citizens at any time, we are on a slippery slope to open warfare between "them" and "us." The last thing we need is cops seeing civilians as the enemy.

Golob, I find you incredibly naive...

Even if they are gulity of this, they would never admit it, nor would/should they apologize.


Because as soon as they do you can bet that the two assholes who were arrested, along with their attorney, will be lining up filing lawsuits on how their civil rights were violated. Meanwhile, the County will weigh the cost of a trial vs just settling with these yahoos for an undisclosed sum, out of court.

Seriously, I don't care if the depuities are covering their ass, both of these two Critical Mass riders deserved a beat down and thankfully they got one. My only hope is that the next time this happens, Critical Mass will provoke some hot headed, gang banger, with a gun.

The anti-Critical-Mass commenters demonstrate why Critical Mass exists in the first place. Share the road, dimwits, then bicycle activists will have nothing to complain about.


We do share the road, in fact we have an incredibly bike friendly city. critical mass is not about sharing the road, it's about the fantasy of creating a bike only universe.

Regrettably, these morons are on the, I am going to protest anything and anything bandwagon.

In fact, I am quite certain, that one of the riders was screaming about freeing Nelson Mandella in front of the court house the other day. When he was informed that Mr. Mandella has been free for quite some time he then starting sceaming for Leonard Peltier.....

Re: Ken Schram

While its never particularly effecitve to argue ad hominem, with Mr. Schram I have a very hard time getting past the observation that he is a pock-marked, pudgy, krill of a man.

Re: *they deserved it*

I myself do a little happy dance everytime I read news about a dead driver. Since a few die every day, and since it's always on the news, I get to dance a lot. Oh and I especially love the stories where the young children of drivers are killed by drivers. I have a special happy dance for that. So I understand Someguy's attitude, I think.

Right on Geni and Longball.

"Don't you get sick of jackasses such as these disrupting your daily life with this kind of crap?"

12 days out of 365 is hardly a daily disruption.

1 minute out of my life to listen to these fucks is too much.

12 days a years should be punishable with the death penatly

Looks like Schram took his liver for a walk in crazy 'ol Belltown last night.

I think both groups acted reprehensibly and together created an ugly situation that was completely unnecessary.

I'm fine with there being a group of cyclists that encourages a mass ride for "demonstration and celebration" (according to their website). What I'm not fine with is said group flagrantly breaking the law and causing potentially dangerous situations (see article for explanation of "corking").
Isn't it illegal to hold opposing traffic so your friends can run a red light (or three)? Wait your goddamn turn, jackasses! If you want to ride as a group, then wait as a group for the light to allow everyone through at once. Or if you get split up, WAIT UP AHEAD.

Maybe it's just me, but I think Seattle is already super accepting of cyclists sharing the road, especially compared to other places I've lived (Pittsburgh, New York). I'm not saying that there isn't any room for improvement, but this group is certainly not going to win any doubters or haters over with that kind of behavior. Be safe, follow the rules of the road, gain respect.

As for the police "response"- WHAT THE F#@*?!? Way to cause a riot. What is this- LA? I typically feel ambivalent about the police- someone's got to do it...provided that someone is not a complete moron thug harboring some pent-up road rage. I think it goes without saying that this was not the best way to handle the situation at all and that appropriate disciplinary action should be taken.

There are good cops and there are bad cops, good cyclists and bad cyclists, there is Goofus and there is Gallant.

'Nuff said.

Now can someone please post something about Project Runway?

keshmeshi: What exactly is your definition of sharing? To me sharing is a combined use of something. Bikers seem to think that sharing means "Let me do what I want, including holding up traffic." I live by Greenlake, an area resplendant with bike lanes. Still bikers hold up traffic, run lights, and generally make a nuisance of themselves. I realize no all bikers are assholes, but the ones we remember are. Regarding critical mass, is breaking traffic laws the best way to teach others to share the road? Don't you think that a group of bikers slowing down traffic will only agitate motorists more, and make them less likely to share? If I use your logic I should steal my neighbors lawnmower if he refuses to share it with me. There is no doubt that these little piggies overreacted, but I would be lying if I said they weren't living my dream.

So, when will Ron Sims give them the dressing down those two lying cops deserve?

The issue isn't with Critical Mass. The issue is whether or not we think it's okay for cops to flip out and go medieval on citizens when they themselves are inconvenienced. I, for one, consider that a Bad Thing.

And Will, why would Ron Sims be the one to chastise them? That's Sheriff Rahr's job.

Oh, shiz -- Someguy's loves fucking Schram. Makes sense. A Schram troll, I'd bet, to Schram. Ya fuckin Schramtroll.

Geni... Don't confuse Critical mass with tax paying Citizen.

Lloyd, Why don't you lick the cheese fro underneath my nutsack?

The real issue is untrained Metro yahoo cops practicing on Seattle turf. That's where the behind the scenes action is taking place. Those yahoos turned a minor puff of smoke with the Critical Mass bozos into a major conflagration, which is the opposite of what real cops are supposed to do. We have no idea what the real facts are -- I'm sorry, but eyewitness testimony is completely worthless -- except for the simple fact that we're reading about it now, which is proof that these guys didn't do their job correctly.

Too many cops in this city are fucking idiots. If you are not wearing a uniform (on-duty or off), you are a private citizen. I can buy a fucking badge-looking thing off of EBAY, wear what I always wear, and call myself a cop. That doesn't mean that everyone should treat ME like a cop. If a cop is not in uniform, on duty or off (but doing some-sort of undercover decective work should be the only exception), they should not expect to be treated like uniformed cops when they get the shit kicked out of them.


Ummm.... are you retarded?

Did you all deactivate your gag reflex and read that Schram nonsense? here's what i wrote to Kenny "Gin Blossom" Schram...

So you hate Critical Mass… fair enough, but you have let your bias completely cloud your opinion in this situation. I work downtown and am always annoyed at bikers' brazen disregard for traffic safety, so I will concede that Critical Mass seems like a bit of a ridiculous demonstration to me too. So, even if they are "yahoos" as you say in your article, do you really believe that these deputies acted appropriately, or are you just glad that someone, anyone, gave a few of these bikers a beating you'd like to doll out yourself? You say;

"Long story short, the deputies arrested a couple of people amid what I think are weak allegations that they were a little too rough in the process."

Whoa, that certainly is a "long story short". Very clever of you to completely dismiss all those inconvenient details that, quite frankly, blow your opinion of this incident out of the water. The eye witness reports (I believe over 20 sworn testimonies) including that of the driver who was behind the van are all consistent, and completely at odds with the deputies' versions of what happened. I guess it doesn't bother you when cops beat up people for traffic violations as long as they beat up people you don't like, or agree with. You go on to say;

"I'd also like to know if he really thinks deputies should've just quietly sat in their van and watched the group's illegal antics."

Umm, how about if they acted like, I dunno… professional officers of the law? Identify themselves as officers, approach the suspect in a calm manner and issue the appropriate citation. The conduct of these deputies, and their subsequent lies in their official report should be alarming, especially coming out of an agency widely outed lately for the unprofessional and even criminal activity of it's officers with little or no consequences. Do you find it at all compelling that the arraignment of the older suspect in this case has been postponed to further review the case? It seems even the King County prosecutor's office doesn't find this case as cut and dried as your "long story short" version.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that Critical Mass is silly, disruptive, or even dangerous. I think that would make a compelling editorial. But that should not be at issue in this case. For a journalist to excuse, or downplay the actions of these KC deputies is irresponsible. Maybe the next person they bulrush and assault without identifying themselves, will be committing an act of civil disobedience you agree with. Will you be singing the same tune then?

"cheeze fro"? Wouldn't be surprised one bit.

oh, yeah. those "cops" in the photos... all look like thugs. If I saw those thug looking guys beating up on some skinny ass looking dude on a bike, yeah, I would try to help the skinny dude by swinging first, and listening to the "I am a cop, I am a cop" shit last. It is my duty as a citizen to protect other people, I would not just "let" the ass kicking continue. I will call the real cops only after the thugs are done with the ass kicking. You never know what could happen... maybe those thugs saying they are cops, handcuffing the guy, and then toss him in the back of the van. I would not want that skinny dude to get killed. For me, that is a bigger moral Wrong. Dailing 911 and standing on the sidewalk like a chicken shit waiting for the red and blue lights is a pussy move.

Someguy, you are an ass. Why don't you meet the Critical Mass riders the last Friday of the month at Westlake and just shoot them in the head, since that's apparently what you've suggested in the comments above. If not, then go back to Instapundit, LGF or RedState and STFU.

Oh, yeah, Critical Mass. I am surprised I never heard of any of those fuckers getting there collective asses kicked before now. Stop breaking the FUCKING LAWS!!!!

let me and everyone get home in peice, that CD shit by slowing down traffic does nothing other then piss people off.they

Ride single file, stop for pedistrians, wait for the traffic lights. Better yet, stick to the bike lanes. My tax money pays for them and I want your biking ass in them, and not in the traffic lanes. And I don give a flying fuck about *any* of the reasons behind this CD. I have heard them for far too many years and every reason is fucking lame.

Sometroll continues to ignore the fact that two big guys jumped out of an unmarked vehicle, physically attacked a biker while shouting obscenities at them, and only after other bikers rushed over to defend the one biker did they pull their ID and identify themselves as cops, more of a CYA move for their own mindless road rage than an actual enforcement of law. They thought they could get away with attacking civilians. They obviously can't.

Whether or not CM's a bunch of juvenile jerks doesn't change the fact that these two guys stepped way over the line and abused their position as cops.

Best question to ask right now?

If the detectives lied on their offical report of the incident, will they be charged with purjury?

And, in any future trial using evidence from these "cops", what competent defense attorney wouldn't use their past history of blatantly lying to add resonable doubt?

Fire them. Sue Rahr too.


I'm not ignoring that fact. I recognoize that the kid corking the instection did so in a manner in which he was provoking people and he got his ass kicked.

meanwhile, the snd CM rider, zack, was the only rider there with a set of balls and stepped in to assist.

Where were the rest of the "activists", sitting around taking pictures of their friends getting beat up...

Or perjury, with some careful spelling...

Has anyone pestered Sue Rahr, the accountable politician in this whole fracas, about her position?

Did Phenics and Someguy just swap identities?

Heaven forbid.. gasp... A cop lie?

That would NEVER HAPPEN.

Uhh.. of course it happens all the time. But, why should we put up with LA-style police? It doesn't mean it should be tolerated, particularly when they can be caught so easily.

Someguy, are you arguing that detectives lying is a good thing? Again, how about planting evidence?

A scary question is how these guys behave when not dealing with relatively well-connected residents, such as math graduate students at UW.

(FYI, I worked as an EMT-B in Baltimore. I'm well aware of all the bullshit, particularly from bad cops. Why should the good cops pay for these assholes?)

Someguy... why do you ask? are you retarded? looking for another to hang with?

From the sounds of the anti-CM contingent here, one gets the impression they believe the appropriate response to any minor traffic violation is to beat the living crap out of the offender. I guess the concept of a response appropriate to the level of the infraction is one that eludes them.

By their logic, we should henceforth consider pistol-whipping little old ladies who fail to use their turn signals, or pummelling to a bloody pulp that cell phone talking guy who creeps into the cross walk, or popping a cap into the ass of that lady who just entered the intersection as the light turns red as completely legitimate ways to deal with minor infractions.

I mean, they're all behaving illegally, inconveniencing other drivers, and creating a potentially dangerous situation; so why not just blow their asses away?

After all, it's what they deserve, right?


Addressing the police. I am firmly of the frame of mind that good police are made of Criminal Stock. I want someone who has a shady element working in law enforcement, this gives them an edge when dealing with actual criminals.

What you are presenting is you want some kind of cross between politician, & saint to interact with the public in a law enforcement capacity.

The Deputies that Zack and Jason came across are the real deal, not some plain clothes Police officer who is More PR than anctual policing. With that in mind, I expect, these guys to push the limits of the law.

Does this make it fair? Abslutely not, but then again, I've been around long enough to recognize when someone is a real threat, and not someone you can throw your bike in front of their car and say, what are you going to do?

This kinda reminds me of the Seattle theater chick who moved to New York. When being mugged, she taunted the muggers, "what are you gonna do, shoot us"? Fortunately, she was the only one to die due to her stupidity.

As to your placing a Grad Student up on some kind of pedestal, this clown is professional student and has never been exposed to reality. Sadly, this jackass will more than likely go into teaching and will stay locked within the University system for his entire career without ever having to actually work for a living.
You can do a search for his resume. In his 30 years, the only job that he lists beyond accepting students loan and sponging government grants, is that of having recently worked as a cab driver.

Beyond that, he's got pictures of his bike and a bunch of hippie art he's made for burning man on his website

He's a fucking parasite and this beating is probably the best educational lesson he's recieved to date.

comte, read the words, not in between the lines.

Critical Mass are jerks. I hear their message and I say "you want more bike lanes, then I will gladly pay for taxes for them. Give me something to vote on, and you will get a my vote. Just don't FUCKING TIE UP TRAFFIC ON FRIDAY AT RUSH HOUR. ASSHOLES!!!!!

Those cops are jerks. They are violent, they are not "serving and protecting" they are out of uniform, newspaper around the county are full of fake "officers" who break all sorts of laws (ever hear of the people who pretend they are cops, go to houses, pull people over, then rape, rob, or worse) So of course they will get there asses kicked. They deserve it. "Act calm and safe at all times, you represent the police force in and out of uniform."

Nobody but you typed anything that said anything about "little old ladies". Pedistrians in crosswalks should never be pistol whipped. There is a reason they are walking and not riding a bike or driving a car. Maybe they have a medical condition so they just walk slow. If you want to get mad at them and pistol whip them, then, FUCK OFF.

"Ride single file, stop for pedistrians, wait for the traffic lights. Better yet, stick to the bike lanes. My tax money pays for them and I want your biking ass in them, and not in the traffic lanes."

I'll point out that it's legal to ride two abreast, and legal to ride in the road. If you can convince DOT to put a bike lane on every street in town, that may get the cyclists out of the road, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

And don't forget, cyclists pay for your roads just as much as you pay for bike lanes -- probably more so, considering the relative amounts spent on each. Road improvement money comes from property taxes, so we all pay it either directly or indirectly.

My question is, what is it about cyclists that gets some people so irrationally angry?

Oh, I almost forgot -- someguy clearly talks from the wrong orifice at every opportunity. When someone plays the childish "look, I can say outrageous, opinionated things!" game, it's best to ignore them.

I haven't seen anything resembling an actual line of reasoning coming from him; this is nothing more than classic trolling.

Another math Student...

Tell me what you paid in taxes last year?

You bleat on about these huge contribtions to society, however, I am very familiar with the Graduate Programs at UW and am well aware that you don't contribute a fucking thing to society, at this point in your life.

Quite frankly, your objective is to retain the materials, get along in your department and sell yourself to the department heads, so that they will accept you into your fold, so that one day, you too can work at UW and continue on the free public ride.

Someguy, why do you hate America so much? We have a system of justice whereby we hire legislators to write laws, police to watch out for those who don't obey our laws, and judges/juries to determine guilt and impose penalty.

Someone rarely -- if ever -- "deserves an ass-kicking" and if he does, it's up to a judge to determine so. Not a "hot-headed gang-banger with a gun", not a couple of goons who jump out of a brown mini van, and not a police officer in uniform.

The most those sheriff's deputies should have done was to get out, identify themselves, issue a citation, and made sure that the accused got in front of a judge. Does anyone here disagree?

They should be fired and they have no business working in law enforcement again. If they want to serve and protect by delivering ass-kickings at will, they can go work for a security contractor in the Middle East.


Yur kind of a pussy aren't you?

let me guess, liberal democrat?


You want reasoning?

Seattle is an incredibly Bike Friendly city and the jackasses at CM are in need of a form of protest and this is what they have for today.

Regettably, their protesting a city that actually supports them, so by acting like assholes, which is exactly what they do, all they do is piss people off.

And yes, they did deserve to get slapped around.

Thanks Phil and Cyclist/ Geek.

I think I'll see A Scanner Darkly in Someguy's honor tonight.

Holy shit, "liberal democrat". Now there's a cutting insult. Gosh, Someguy, you're hell on wheels all right.


This is one liberal democrat who wouldn't be the least afraid to meet a tough talking blog punk like you in the dark alley of your choosing (and, while I do own and occasionally ride a bike, I'm no fan of Critical Mass. However, I'm even less a fan of bully boy cops who hit first and identify themselves later).

Go post that bullshit on Soundpolitics with your knuckle-dragging bretheren, already.




It would be great if in the course of investigating this story you could find out from the sheriff or police just how a citizen who is being assaulted by a big guy in street clothes who jumped out of an unmarked vehicle with civilian plates is supposed to identify the thug as a police officer and stop defending himself.

Seriously: even if someone says "I'm a cop" and waves something that looks kind of like what you assume a sheriff's badge looks like -- which is pretty much exactly what the toy badge you might have had as a kid looked like -- are you supposed to take his word for it, stop defending yourself, and risk losing some teeth?

A couple weeks ago I saw a completely unmarked car pull up behind another car on Yesler over I-5 with some small flashing lights behind the car's grill. A large man in plain clothes jumped out of the car, ran up to the other car, and yanked open its door. The flashing lights are sort of a tip-off that it's a cop, but not really. Anyone can put some flashing lights on his car and if they're hidden behind the grill, drive around with them all he wants without anyone stopping him. If he pulled me over in the city, I'd probably assume he was a cop. But if it was in a more remote location, I'd be worried about my safety. I've decided that the wise thing to do in either case is to slam the door on the man's fingers, lock up, call the police, and report an assault. So what if he says he's the police -- why should I trust him?

Think about the two sheriff's deputies from this story showing up at your home in their unmarked van in their street-thug/Seabirds-fan attire and asking to come in. What are you going to do -- get out your police badge ID guide and verify that their badges are real, assume that they're not stolen badges, and then let 'em in?


You're right, sorry (I was just overcome with the desire to feed that one a knuckle sandwich - but I'll work on that)!

Right about the trolls. I apologize and retract the first sentence of my first post. The rest stands.

This is a legitimate question: How am I to identify an undercover law enforcement officer -- especially when he is in the process of assaulting me? Who the hell knows a real badge from a fake one?

Not directed only at you, Native, this particular troll has been well fed today by many. And I sympathize... It is nearly impossible to resist these assheads, but it's often even more fun when they're ignored. They come back with more and more outrageous garbage, trying to get a reaction, and then they whither and die.

Identifying a real cop, particularly undercover, is a problem. I remember at some point reading some advice that indicated that you are perfectly within your rights to seek a safe and/or public area if you feel unsure. It was in the context of being pulled over by unmarked cars, the advice was to slowly continue to the nearest populated area before stopping.

Obviously, if someone's currently kicking your ass, that advice doesn't apply.

In the end, you can never be 100% sure--it's very easy to impersonate a police officer.

Sorry about feeding the troll.

It is easier to figure out someone really is a cop if they are calm and in control of themselves...

Seattle Native...

Absolutely, I'd be happy to meet you in a Dark Alley, you fucking Punk.

How about in the Alleyway Behind neighbors at 2 AM.?

Come into the alley and just start yelling, "I'm Seattle Native and I'm looking for Some Guy, I want his Ass".

Soun Politics Huh? I guess that means your a big fan of Horses Ass.

Gee, it's not just stupid - it's homophobic, too. Surprise surprise (my last troll feeding, I promise!).

Sure thing Pussy, act like a typical liberal male...scamper away now, but remember to grumble

Well, your post evidently wasn't a serious offer, given the self-loathing homophobic would-be joke you thought was oh so witty (actually, you ARE a self-loathing homophobic joke, come to think of it).

Phenic, maybe you should take your own advice.

All three examples I used were of drivers, not pedestrians. And what, pray tell is wrong with pointing out analogies similar in circumstance to the one that actually occurred?

If people like some of the "keyboard commandoes" commenting here are willing to grant carte-blanch to a bunch of hyped-up UC KCSD goons to go all "Judge Dredd" on some bike messanger's ass for blocking an intersection, then surely it would be hypocritical for them to deny them that same license in the instances I described. Either you grant leeway (as the SPD has learned to do, for everyone's benefit) or you don't, as spelled out in today's Horsey cartoon in the PI:

So, you may think the CM'ers are "assholes", because one day a month they inconvenience your oh-so-precious commute by making you two or three minutes later getting home from work? Does that mean they automatically rate physical and verbal abuse simply because it's more important for you to get home in time to watch that umpteen bazillionth rerun of "Frazier"?

Shit, if that's the case, then I demand every member of the Mariners, Seahawks, Sonics and Storm (for as long as they're around), along with their attendant fans, be repeatedly thrown to the grownd and boot-choked prior to each and every home game, 'cause they do more combined to screw up traffic around here than any bunch of scrawny bicyclists will ever do.

Another Math Student:

I posted your (good) question about why people get so irrationally angry about cyclists on the forums...

someguy, when's the last time you got laid? you sound like the bitter, balding, fat middle aged guys over at who never seem to shut up.

i'm no fan of bicyclists, either. last week some dingalong honky cyclist slowed down to make a left turn (WITHOUT ANY HAND SIGNALS)and my 77 year old mom almost had to hit the brakes hard. if you're reading this, mr. dumbass white man, DO NOT DO THIS AGAIN. because next time my mom and I will cheerfully give you an atomic wedgie you'll never forget.

thenk yew.

Oh my gawd! Oh my gawd! A couple of bicyclists blocked an intersection and inconvenienced me for a minute or two. Death penalty!

Tens of thousands of cars clog up the roads every morning and evening commute, inconveniencing me for hours? No problem. Part of life in the city.


Someguy, you are an imbecile.

Critical Mass' tactic might arguably be stupid, but nobody deserves a beating for a minor traffic offence. What concerns me is that if these cops are brutal enough to beat up a couple of skinny bicyclists in broad daylight in front of 20 witnesses, you have to wonder what they do to, oh, say a brown person they take a disliking to at night when there are no witnesses around?

These guys are a disgrace to their badge, and should be fired. Every day that Sue Rahr delays taking any action reduces the chance that I'd consider voting for her next re-election.

Oh, and someguy, her name was Nicole DuFresne, and she was a friend and colleague when she lived here in Seattle, and she was one of the most fearless human beings I've ever been privileged to know.

Were she still alive, she'd have been more than happy to take you up on your offer to meet outside Neighbors - and I would have bet good money that she would have wiped that alley with your sorry ass.

The best part about all of this is that no matter how much you guys sit around on the Internet crying about bicyclist ruining your day, they are still out there riding their bikes. Nothing is going to change. Critical Mass will still be happening this month, and more intersections will be corked. I know it's hard not to get upset when you think about all these people enjoying the air on their next to free means of transportation while you sit in your bottomless money hole of a car getting soft around the middle, but there are better ways to fix things than crying. How's about getting on a bike yourself? Hell, you just might like it!


Blah, blah, blah...

Thanks for pointing out her name...

There's a big differnce between being fearless and being an ignorant loudmouth who puts herself and her friends in danger. As I said before, the only good thing that came out of that situation is that her ignorant behavior only caused her to loose her life, not the other people she was with.

Clearly, ignorant behavior is something you know an awful lot about.

Great, then we are agrred, her behavior was moronic and if she's just shut her mouth, she'd be alive today.

Likelwise, has "jace" not been acting like a punk, he would not have instigated this whole situation.

I would like to point out that while use of force was being used, there was nothing excessive by what the police did. Additionally, had Jace pulled the same behavior, any citizen would have had the right to use the same force in making a citizens arrest ofr the crime of civil disobedience.

Maybe you should actually read the applicable laws, someguy, before spouting your obviously ignorant drivel.

I suggest you spend some time reviewing the WA Criminal Code, particularly sections 9A.84.30, which defines unlawfully blocking an intersection as disorderly conduct, which in this state is a misdemeanor, and therefore not subject to the "citizen's arrest" provision of the RCW; and 9A.16.020, which spells out the specific circumstances under which a justifiable defense may be provided to a private citizen for use of force to detain someone for criminal activity.

In this instance no such defense could be made, because the alleged crime does not meet the qualifications for a felony under the section cited above. In fact, in this particular situation, even if a felony were committed, only a "necessary and reasonable level" of force is deemed appropriate. So, if the perp were to simply walk away, at best all you could do would be to tell them to stop; physically restraining them would be considered "excessive use of force", which is not allowed.

And, were you to attempt something as stupid and unlawful as trying to "arrest" them, the perp could either just walk away, since you would have no legal authority to detain them, or if you were to be even more stupidly attempt to apply force, they would have every right to respond in kind, as would anyone who assisted them in kicking your sad, sorry, ignorant ass into next week for going vigilante on them in the first place.

And then they'd get to sue whatever remained of your well-kicked ass in civil court for unlawful detainment and battery, and the police would no doubt bring similar criminal charges against you as well.

So, go ahead, try it. Make someone's day, punk.

Someguy, do you still eat at Septieme?

Mean cops who beat up white people should be fired. White people should be able to do whatever they want downtown.

Could the cops please do something about the smelly colored street people selling crack on my condo doorstep? It lowers my property values.

Nice troll smackdown, Comte!

Facts = troll kryptonite.

Nice Try Comte. Regrettably, like your loudmouthed dead friend, you don't know when to keep your mouth shut.

I see that you cut and pasted some RCW interpretation on why Jace was arrested and now you are envisioning yourself a legal expert.

Here's the thing, Citizens arrest are not limited to Felonies, although the action in itself is rare, everyone in this country — even non-citizens — have the legal right to do it. This is protected under the 9th Amendment. The specifics vary by state, but if someone witnesses a crime, that person can make an immediate arrest and use "reasonable" physical force to detain the suspect.

For example, If I caught you trespassing on my property, I could apprehend you at gunpoint, hog tie you, throw you in the back of my car and drive you to a police station... All legally.

As to the my condition once the police arrived or after I dropped the suspect at the police station? Who are you kidding, look at Seattle. Do you really think the cowards in this city would actually get involved? They'd sit around and talk, take pictures, then run home and post on a blog... Kinda like the current, wanna be bike messenger scandal going on now.

BTW you geeks, Quicksilver was a lousy movie, you've been trying to live the dream since 1986 and haven't figured out that bike messengers are fucking losers to begin with.

Seattle Nativee, you fucking woman, you were whining about a smackdown?

Where? Comte has her facts all wrong and is speaking out her ass.

Matt from Denver, yep, my wife and I still eat at Septieme. The funny thing is that after the "boycott" by the pathetic losers on this site, Septiemes business is better than ever.

re: Nicole DuFresne... those thugs were out for blood and would have assaulted/killed her and her friends no matter what. IIRC, they were already robbing and/or beating up her friend when she spoke up. Some thugs, especially in NYC, are ruthless violent assholes, and the people on this board have no fucking idea. Keeping her mouth shut wouldn't have made a difference, except she would've died without saying a word.


WTF? Since you can't dispute the FACTS as I've presented them, you make a pathetic attempt to shift the discussion away from the actual circumstances of the other day into the realm of some wildly hypothetical set of circumstances centering on some puerile vigilante fantasy. Nice try - not.

But go ahead and keep trying to pull straw men out of your ass; it amuses me to no end to have you prove what an ignorant moran you are to everyone else reading your drivel.

If you'd bothered to read the applicable statutes (we'll assume for the moment, although it's against my better judgement, that you DO know how to read), the "necessary & reasonable force" requirements are still in effect, even in the case of trespass. You would have to prove that the incursion onto your property had been done with malicious intent, that is, that the trespass represented a real, imminent threat to your person or property, or the person or property of someone you've allowed on said property before use of "necessary and reasonable force" would be considered defensible. The act of trespass by itself doesn't meet that standard, which is why idiots like you keep getting locked up for pulling stupid shit like shooting kids who cut through your yard, just to cite one recent example.

So, do the rest of the world a big favor and pull that wasted space between your ears out from between your butt-cheeks, and at least make an attempt to learn the law before you go spouting your ignorant rantings. The life you save might be your own.

Or, go ahead and give your brand of puerile, uninformed, neanderthal vigilante justice a whirl, and see where you end up - which I'll bet dollars to donut holes will either be in Harborview, or lockup, or better yet both.

Just don't come to us looking for contributions to your legal defense fund.

Three CM bikers in DC were stopped for questioning and harassment by Federal Protective Service this past Friday.


Let's see, 4 people got mugged that night (It does happen), and 3 walked away without being harmed. The one that ran her mouth with such a plum statement as "what are you gonna do, shoot us" is the only one that got shot.

Sorry man, I'm gonna look to Darwin on this one.

1. you may wanna put down the crackpipe as you are obvioulsy high.

2. We're just fine on legal representation.

Someguy brought his peashooter of a brain to an intellectual gunfight, with predictable results.

I don't know why I keep responding to your inane nonsense Nobody, but I guess when you pull this kind of ignorant trash-talk about someone unable to defend herself here, and a friend of mine to boot, I take it a bit personally.

The reason Mary Jane, Scott and Nicole's fiance Jeff Sparks "walked away" is because at the moment the perp, Rudy Fleming, shot Nicole (after pistol-whipping Sparks BTW, which is what prompted her outburst), his four accomplices up and high-tailed it away from the scene, leaving Mr. Fleming suddenly alone with his victims. Seeing he'd lost his "backup", and standing over a bleeding, dying woman with a smoking gun in his hand, he did what most cowards do in that situation: he ran like Hell to find someplace to hide.

Fleming had a history of violent activity, including having previously served three years for threatening school security officers with a semi-automatic pistol. At the time of the shooting, he was in violation of his parole on a number of counts, including possession of a firearm; he and his "gang" had made several previous robbery attempts earlier that evening, but had been prevented because there were too many potential witnesses around. This was a violent individual, out looking for someone to hurt, and he was willing to wait with the patience of a stalking animal until he found it.

So, after lurking around the neighborhood for several hours, he spotted a foursome coming down the street, and with no onlookers, he stepped out of a doorway, demanded wallets & purses, and then, when they were complying, used his gun to beat Nicole's fiance half-senseless - at which point she lashed out. Now, tell me: do you think you can say, with any degree of honesty, that you might have behaved any differently, seeing someone you loved lying hurt and bleeding on the ground like that?

Or would you have, being the Mr. Macho 5th Rate "Dirty Harry" wannabe you enjoy portraying yourself as, have instead cowered on the ground and begged for your life, "Oooh, please Mr. Bad Man, don't HUUUUURT me!", wetting your britches (or worse) in the process? Don't feel ashamed about it; we can't all stand up to ugly brutality the way Nicole did, and had done previously in her all-too-brief life.

But then, I'm guessing you believe that "it's better to live on your knees than to die on your feet", eh?

What would I have done?

The person has a gun and is demanding your wallet, give it to them.

Is your life worth all the hassle cancelling your credit card? or losing what pocket money you might have had on you?

Absolutely not.

There was no reason she had to die, nor would she have, had she shut kept her mouth shut.

That FACT seems to have been lost in your hurry to make her death have some kind of noble meaning.

If anything her death has been used as a lesson on how not to respond during a mugging.

You ask the question, what would I do if I saw someone I loved being hurt? I would do my best to remain calm, and diffuse the situation, if that meant my getting poistol whipped, so be it. The priority being end the situation and have an opportuntiy to spend more time with your loved one, not run your mouth and escalate the situation.

Very accurate article on this situation.

Even if you don’t live in New York City, you’ve likely heard by now of an aspiring actress who was shot and killed during a robbery in Manhattan’s Lower East Side last Friday. Much has been made of this killing – particularly, I believe, because the victim, Nicole duFresne, was young, pretty and blonde. (But that’s another issue altogether.)

The killing was a tragedy, and I extend my condolences to Nicole's family and friends.

But duFresne’s actions, along with her fiancé and their friends the night of their murders, are also a prime example of exactly how NOT to behave on a city street. I’m certainly not saying or implying that these victims deserved what happened to them. But they certainly made it easy for themselves to be victims. I think, therefore, this tragedy gives us the opportunity to review what it means to be safe in a modern urban environment.

For those who haven’t read about the incident, here’s an abbreviated account of what happened. On early Thursday morning, Nicole duFresne finished working at a popular Manhattan music club – her first night on the job – and had gone bar-hopping with her fiancée, Jeffrey Sparks, and two other friends. Upon leaving a bar around 3:15 a.m., the group was walking down the street when as many as seven teens stepped in front of them and accosted them. One of the men pulled a gun and demanded money. Sparks, drunk (by his own admission) and not thinking clearly, shoved the man aside and tried to walk past him; the man proceeded to pistol-whip Sparks. At some point, the muggers then grabbed the purse of one of duFresne’s friends. DuFresne tried to stop him, reportedly saying, "What are you going to do? Shoot us?" At which point the mugger responded by taking Nicole’s suggestion, shooting her in the chest. She was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital.

Once again, while no one is suggesting that Nicole deserved to die, she and her friends certainly didn’t do anything to prevent this tragedy. Here’s a list of the things they did wrong:

1) They were drunk in public. Now, I’m sure many of you will tell me that just because Nicole and her friends were drunk didn’t justify they’re being shot. You’re right. But you’re also missing the point. Anything that impairs your judgment, vision, reflexes and awareness should be consumed in the safety of a private home. I’m all for partying it up – do it myself on a regular basis. But I make it a point to never have more than a drink or two in me if I’m going to be out in public. Especially in a major city (such as New York). Especially late at night. This is probably the biggest mistake Nicole and her friends made, one that led to all the other ones that followed.

2) They were unaware. There’s no telling what role alcohol had to do with this. But late at night, walking down the street, vigilance is crucial to staying safe. From what I’ve read, Nicole and her friends should have noticed a large group of teens walking toward them, noted the hostile aura around them, and tried to avoid them. Obviously, they didn’t. Especially in a city, but not matter where you live, you should be constantly scanning ahead while in public, evaluating places where a criminal might be hiding and waiting for a choice victim, and – most importantly – avoiding those places. This might seem like a lot of trouble – but you can quickly make it an automatic habit, one that you do almost subconsciously. A good way to do this is to start by evaluating your usual routes – from work to your parking lot, from your home to the subway stop, etc. – and imagining where you would hide if you wanted to ambush yourself. That gives you a starting point of places you should make a point of scanning every time you go outside.

3) They failed to evaluate the situation correctly. Nicole and her friends were outnumbered. Surrounded. And at least one of the assailants was armed. Yet Sparks apparently thought the right thing to do was to shove one of them away. That’s stupid, and akin to poking a rattlesnake for laughs and giggles. Again, I'm not saying he deserved to be beaten. But was it really a surprise that he was?

4) They failed to evaluate the situation correctly – part two. After Sparks had been beaten for his actions – i.e., the assailants had demonstrated their willingness to use violence – and after one of the assailants (reportedly) said, "Look, all we want is some money," they failed to just comply and give up their wallets and purses.

5) They failed to evaluate the situation correctly – part three. After Sparks had been beaten for his actions – i.e., the assailants had demonstrated their willingness to use violence – and after one of the assailants (reportedly) said, "Look, all we want is some money," Nicole evidently thought it was a good idea to challenge – to dare – and to taunt the gun wielder. In general, if someone is pointing a gun at you, it’s hard to imagine a more inappropriate thing to say than, "What are you going to do, shoot us?"
The shooting of Nicole duFresne was an unfortunate occurrence. But if anything good can come from it, it’s this: learn from her mistakes. Don’t do what she and her friends did. Yes, it’s true that we should all be able to walk the streets at any time, without risk to our safety, our loved ones, or our possessions. You have the right to walk down the street safely and unaccosted. Unfortunately, we live in the real world, not an idealized one, and precautions and sound judgment must be taken – regardless of rights


1st yer a labor-management expert, then a legal expert, now a criminal psychologist!

Yer a regular effing Renaissance Man you are!

You should be running the country!

Yer smarter than George Bush!

Yer my new hero!


Jesus, Someass, what the fuck was she supposed to do, sit there and let those assholes pistol whip her fiancee? Who's to say the thugs stop when they cough up their wallets? Who's to say they don't kill her anyway? They don't always. In fact, they rarely do.

You're a dumbass, and I'm putting that as nicely as possible.

In case you're thinking about taking me out of context, "They don't always" is short for "they don't always call off the dogs once you give them your wallet."

I can tell you for a fact that the KC prosecutors are not going to be filing a felony assault charge. Do not ask me how I know.

I can also say that the undercover detective unit that KCSD staffs for Metro has a reputation at the prosecuting attorney's office that is less than stellar. The squad is well-known as a dumping ground for deputies with discipline issues. Internally, being moved to the unit is viewed as a demotion.

And "Someguy", please leave law enforcement to those who are trained to do it. While your "knowledge" of the RCW is, impressive, the criminal justice system most definitely does not require your assistance. Keep in mind that you are not an officer and are not a prosecutor. If you take the law into your own hands, there will be plenty real criminal justice professionals to teach you how the system functions.

Thank you.


I hade a cayterpiller on my daishbored, and I criminal justice smaished it with a rolled up Strangers maygazeen, acuzz, technical-like, that there car is property of a persinle pesuwashin, and it was ane inselt to the magazeen itself alsew. Hardy harr.

I kick a dogs' ass won time acuzz it pipped in a crosswalk I hade ever right to ewez, and also interupted me while I was taking a drink offin my graype sodee. Ewe like graypes? I sayde to the dog, while kickin it on its' handquarters and apourin some sodee on its' craneyum; ewe like grapes?

My messaage, all yousis pippin and a poopin dog (and proble to a lessar extint, cates ect.) is I wont all manners of shadowy punishmint-type figgurs to clean up that upscaley Belltoin from awl sorts of animales speceys, acuzz any upscaled place isnt any kind of a place, legle or otherwaze, for no wald animalls.

Wish I Could Say --

Not too surprised these two were in the dumping ground of KCSD.

Is there going to be any public or private discipline of the detectives for this?

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