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Thursday, May 25, 2006

Busted: Rev. Ken Hutcherson Told He Can’t Collect R-65 Signatures on Public School Property

Posted by on May 25 at 8:00 AM

NOTE: I’ve updated this post from its original form in order to add some new information. FURTHER NOTE: About 24 hours after this post first went up, the Lake Washington School District retracted its letter. Click here for the letter of retraction.

Earlier this week I linked to reports documenting how eastside Rev. Ken Hutcherson had used his Sunday service, which takes place in a rented public school gym, to gather signatures for Tim Eyman’s anti-gay referendum, R-65. I also joined those who were asking whether it’s legal for a religious group to use public school grounds to gather signatures for this kind of referendum.

Well, the Lake Washington School District, which rents the gym to Hutcherson, asked its lawyers the same question and on Tuesday fired off a stern letter telling Hutcherson that if indeed he was collecting signatures for R-65 on school property, then he’s run afoul of the law.

Kathryn Reith, the district’s spokeswoman, told me seven other churches that rent space from the district were sent the same letter on Tuesday. She said it’s too soon to tell what action might be taken against them or against Hutcherson’s Antioch Bible Church if it can be proved that they were collecting signatures on public school property during Referendum Sunday — a state-wide, church-based effort to help Eyman gather the 112,440 signatures he needs by June 6 in order to get R-65 on the November ballot.

“We didn’t know whether any of them did [collect signatures],” Reith told me. “But we thought it was important that we clarify through our attorneys whether [collecting signatures] would be legal.” (She added however, that she had not yet seen these pictures, which allegedly show R-65 signatures being gathered outside Hutcherson’s Sunday service at Lake Washington High School’s gym.)

The letter to the chuches, which cites this state law regulating the use of public facilities in political campaigns, also raises broader questions:

Could opponents of R-65, which would repeal Washington’s new gay civil rights law, go to court (or to state elections officials) and demand that all signatures collected on school grounds be invalidated? And if the Lake Washington School District alone has eight churches renting its facilities, exactly how many school districts state-wide have churches renting facilities from them, and how many of those churches collected R-65 signatures on public school property during Referendum Sunday?

John Vezina, campaign manager for Washington Won’t Discriminate, the group fighting Eyman’s initiative, said his group was considering its response.

“We don’t have any personal knowledge of this,” Vezina told me. “We are making sure that we do everything legally, and it is vital that the other side does as well.”

Hutcherson hasn’t returned my call yet, but here’s an email he apparently sent out to his “Prayer Warriors” earlier today about the issue…

unknown.gif

May 24, 2006

Dear Prayer Warrior,

Well, as you can read in the letter I just received from the Lake Washington School District, the fight is on!!! We better start praying.

Pastor Hutch

And here’s the letter from the Lake Washington School District Deputy Superintendent:

May 24, 2006

Dear Church Leader:

We saw in the news media last week that organizers of Referendum 65, a proposed ballot initiative, have focused on working with churches to get enough signatures to place it on the state ballot. As the leader of a church that holds services on school district property through a building use permit, it’s important that you understand the legal restrictions on activities that take place on public property in order to protect your organization.

In fact, under Washington state law, the facilities of a public agency, i.e., the Lake Washington School District, may not be used directly or indirectly for the purpose of assisting a campaign for election of any person to any office or for the promotion of or opposition to any ballot proposition (RCW 42.17.130). Our attorneys have advised us that collection of signatures on any proposed ballot initiative on school property is a violation of that law, as campaigning for any candidate for elected office would be. Therefore we cannot allow your organization or another organization at your invitation to come onto district property for any efforts that would assist a political campaign of any kind.

While we have worked with political organizations that use our facilities to ensure their understanding of these restrictions, I recognize that we have we may not have made these requirements clear to other users groups. We will be adding this restriction to the building use guidelines so that it is clearly spelled out. Since we do not know if churches that use our schools may be participating in this event, we wanted to bring this concern to the attention of all churches using our facilities. I appreciate your cooperation on this issue, for the protection of both of our organizations. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me. Sincerely,

Janene Fogard

Deputy Superintendent



CommentsRSS icon

"the fight is on!!! we better start praying" Oh sweet Jesus. Im just glad that Hutch got called on it

So who will file the lawsuit to throw out all the illegal signatures gathered their Sunday?

I don't think gathering signatures illegally on public property invalidates the signatures themselves. The campaign could be fined, or their lease could be affected, though.

If this asshole is going to heaven, I'll take hell.

Greg,

While it may be illegal to collect the signatures there - I doubt that that makes the signatures collected illegal (see, this is the type of nuance that you'd have to be able to follow if you are ever going to be elected to anything).

the real question is when are you people uncovering all the shit going to start filing complaints with the IRS to have their tax excempt status revoked.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf

Ok, os now I reall want ot go to Hutch's little church to see what he is up to. I wonder were I get one of those necklaces with the 't'

No court is going to throw out any signatures over this, and I doubt any court would go further than to invalidate the leases at the schoolboard's request, should they decide to do that.
Really though, what difference would it make if the referendum petition folks stood close by outside and the pastors noted this, etc. They'd collect just as many signatures, and they wouldn't run afoul of any laws or of the school district's lawyers rather conentious reading of the law. (It's not at clear that the restriction would apply to the activities of a lessee. I'm inclined to think it probaby doesn't just given the bit of the law included in the post.)
If you really are upset about he schools being used this way, then by all means push the issue, but don't expect to get any leverage on the petition drive that way.

Being just off the property would reduce the effective peer pressure on congregants. Without the watchful eye of the Taliban Zealot directly over thier shoulder the natural human behaviors of tolerance and sloth should reduce the results.

Thanks for all the publicity for Antioch Bible Church. I hope people check out the link or even attend one of our services. Hutch is one of the few pastors that I know of that teach from the Bible as it is written. That God is the very definition of love and the homosexual issue has nothing to do with hate and everything to do with love and wanting more for these people. Christians are sinners too, sometimes the worst and we all need God's grace and forgiveness in our lives.

oh great, here they come again...

"Hutch" is an ignorant slob, and his church ia a place for like-minded zombies.

Oh? Have you been to Antioch Bible Church or met Hutch? If not than you should attend sometime. Cool guy, great multi-cultural congregation. Check it out, we don't bite!

Got Jesus?
No

we don't bite sez Got Jism

No, but we do. Some of at least.

See GJ, I can't stand you fundie religious idiots. And I would love to discriminate against you. But, because ya'll are a protected class under federal and state and local law, I have to hire you, rent to you, or serve you unless I can prove that you are not up to the job, unable to afford the place, or somehow unfit to serve.

You have CHOSEN to be a religious idiot, and the law says that I have to tolerate it. And, yet, because of your (hopefully) terminal idiocy you can't see that extending to others the same benefits that you enjoy might be good social policy.

If I can't discriminate against your horrible lifestyle, why should you be allowed to do unto others what can't be done unto you?

Seems to me that many caucuses and party meetings have taken place at rented school facilities.
I think the law being cited refers to preventing school districts or their employees using school resources for politics.

Or maybe it is just because I am a product of the LWSD.

Actually...I've been to Antioch. I've met Hutch. I've listened to his sermons, and I've had personal conversations with him. I know several of the congregation....

...and, yes, Hutch is an Idiot, a bigot, an ego-maniac...and a lousy logician.

But...I think Gnossos has summed this issue up very nicely regarding my inability to discriminate against religious bigots while they lobby to discriminate against others.

"Seems to me that many caucuses and party meetings have taken place at rented school facilities. "

It's one thing for a school district to provide its facilities to the community for meetings.

Explicit use of a school district's property for petition drives is very different.

I think the real lesson here is that these churches need to build their own places and leave the public schools alone. Mooching off the government doesn't become them.

It might mean that "Hutch" has to maybe take a paycut, or not buy a new Lincoln next year, but I'm sure that some prayer warriors can slip him some cash or buy him a car.

As I have noted before, only losers would go to a church that meets in a gym. The people who can't cut it in a "normal religion". Like this woman I used to work with. She went to an eastside megachurch because 1.) You didn't have to dress up and 2.) She thought the kids should have some sort of church experience. That's a real sound theology right there.

It's not about the location, it's about hearing the true word of God. Most "church goers" have that backwards today. Only a truly amazing pastor can get thousands to spend 1 1/2 hours on uncomfortable folding chairs and bleachers in the gym of a high school. And don't be misled by the Christians who want a "church experience". A true believer knows that being a Christian has nothing to do with going to church if you haven't accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and seek to follow His will for your life.

Psalm119:1-11 How blessed are those whose way is blameless, Who walk in the law of the LORD.
How blessed are those who observe His testimonies, Who seek Him with all {their} heart.
They also do no unrighteousness; They walk in His ways.
You have ordained Your precepts, That we should keep {them} diligently.
Oh that my ways may be established To keep Your statutes!
Then I shall not be ashamed When I look upon all Your commandments.
I shall give thanks to You with uprightness of heart, When I learn Your righteous judgments.
I shall keep Your statutes; Do not forsake me utterly!
How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping {it} according to Your word.
With all my heart I have sought You; Do not let me wander from Your commandments.
Your word I have treasured in my heart, That I may not sin against You.

Psalm 119:105- Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

It's not about the location, it's about hearing the true word of God. Most "church goers" have that backwards today. Only a truly amazing pastor can get thousands to spend 1 1/2 hours on uncomfortable folding chairs and bleachers in the gym of a high school. And don't be misled by the Christians who want a "church experience". A true believer knows that being a Christian has nothing to do with going to church if you haven't accepted Christ as your personal Lord and Savior and seek to follow His will for your life.

Willis,

Relax, it was just a post on a blog and really makes reference to the real lack of fighting the signature gathering. I understand the legalities around signature gathering-probably much better than you.

Don't worrry I am not running for anything right now so you don't have to campaign against me again.

I agree that you can have church anywhere, but it especially nice when you can have it on the government. The more you can save for the Pastor's wife's boob job, the better.

And yes, a real "church experience" might lead to contemplation. We can't have that. If they really thought about what they were doing there, or what they were being told, they might leave.

Greg,

If you understood the laws around signature gathering, then you never would've asked your question in the first place.

I'm beginning to wonder if Hutcherson isn't on the "down low". I mean, why else would he be so hateful towards gays and lesbians. Remember the same story played out at Overlake Christian Church and their pastor got busted giving "hummers" in a men's restroom. This Hutcherson has some dark secrets in his closet and it's causing him to be a hateful and arrogant s.o.b. that sorely needs to be taken down. Anyone interested in maybe starting a Sunday picket in front of the "church" at Lake Washington H.S. asking just how "down low" the Rev. Hutch will go?

GJ: Yes, Hutch is really amazing. He's amazing in the way that for some deep seated reason, he's decided to pick on a group of people that have been disenfranchised, chastised, discriminated against, bullied... the list goes on and on.
I'm happy for you that you have found something that fills your life. But as noted in one of the above posts, I have no choice but to accomodate your lifestyle choice. I believe in some greater power, but not in organized religion. That's my choice.
The important point is that your pastor has decided to embark on a course in which he has decided push others to discrimiate against a group of people for who they are. That alone seems to be in conflict with other aspects of your religious choice, from what I understand of it.
As long as Hutch for whatever reason decides he's gonna pick on us fags and encourage others to do so as well he's absolutely right... the fight is on.

Actually, Got Jesus? has it exactly backwards. America was built on the church-going experience of non-believers and sorta-believers. Church provides a social and community experience that is sorely missing from a lot of people's lives. There's something very soothing and grounding about a regularly-scheduled get-together with your people, to sit and hear familiar words being said again.

Sadly, this experience has been destroyed for many Americans, as their religious heritage has been taken over by shouting nutcases, who are badly imitating the real hellfire preachers of an earlier age. You used to be able to avoid these bigots and screamers, but now they are mainstream. And, unlike earlier times in American history, their hearers are not only expected to believe the rubbish they spew, but that rubbish has a powerful political impact.

Church is a social institution, not a spiritual one. That's the real America. Always has been.

I did a little more research on this and found that it may not be a problem after all In 1973 the attorney general argued that it was not improper to allow such use
http://www.atg.wa.gov/opinions/1973/opinion_1973_026.html

Basically other parts of the RCW allows for schools to provide space for all sorts of activities, including political activity. The AG remarks that providing such space falls withing the normal conduct of such public facilities.

Also It seems what 42.17.130 is designed to prevent is the public body actively promoting one side. Providing space for anyone who asks is not seems as promoting. In other words to 'assist a campaign' requires that some benefit be conferred which is not available to the other side. In this case the opposition could if it so desired request space and hold a meeting. What is more interesting would be whether opposition could stand out side of hutch's meeting and protest. My hunch would be yes :)

Hey Antioch Trolls: Hutch is a Hater, not a Lover.

He will have a lot of time in purgatory, praying to God to forgive him for his sins. Why?
The new testment trumps the old in EVERYTHING. Jesus said so. Jesus said "love the least among you, as you love me". Non-bigots are happy with the protected class christian and gays both have.

"Got Jesus", you, and everyone else who support that petition are Haters also. You say you love gays and want to save them from themselves. So why don't you listen to your fellow children of God (remeber we all pray: "Our Father"), and gays are children of God (even if your Hutch wants you to believe otherwise), so go to church and tell Hutch to knock it off. Gays who want your sort of help will ask. All others should be left the fuck alone . You have no right to offer "help" when none is asked for. Hutch is wrong on the issue of gays. Gays are not what is wrong with America. period. you are wrong.

Joshy, you're probably right. The sad thing about our current WH is that it's the first gay administration that is so far in the closet they won't come out.

Usually, those who protest to much, are. They rail against the demons, for they themselves think if someone as holy as me can be plagued by such thoughts, then those who aren't holy must be even worse.

Yet, sadly, they don't get it that real straight guys aren't plagued by those thoughts. We just think about women 24/7. We can't help it.

That said, I find it amusing how many in the radical right are actually closeted gays - one time I did a mental count and it ended up something like 1/4 of the leadership, which is fairly amusing if you think about it.

However, none of this makes them less dangerous.

I think this all just plays into Ken's paranoed christian martyr spiel. The LWSD letter is arbitrary. They have a long standing history of politics on Campus. Shouldn't we be more worried about censorship than the efforts of a congregation that doesn't have its own church?

While I am opposed to Referendum 65, I think the state law in question does not apply. Otherwise we would be severely limiting free speech. The question in point is whether or not the school district is renting it's facilities to the church at a fair market value.
If the School District is renting space or making space available to anyone else or any other group at the same price, then it should not be an issue.

If the school district is in no way contributing to supporting the church or it's activites, then like any other organization the school district rents to, the church should be able to conduct religious services and any political activities allowed under IRS guidelines.

Because if the School District believes that it can not allow the church to solicit signatures on school grounds, then it also can not allow any candidates or political parties to rent it's facilities for the same reason.

I know that recent Democratic caucuses were held in many public schools. These spaces were rented from Public School Districts. I believe the Republicans have done the same.

The question is whether or not the school district is in some way contributing to the Referendum 65 campaign because it is not charging the churces fair maket value, hence making an illegal contribution to its activities.

One can also argue that individuals have the right to collect signatures on public school property as long as they do not interfere with school activites. By the school district's opinion, no one would be able to walk on the University of Washington campus to get signatures. A candidate could not talk to students on campus. This wuld be a total shutdown of free speech and political discourse.

While I oppose what these right wing evangelical churches are doing, we need to urge people not to sign Referendum 65 based on its trying to overturn a state law that bans dicrimination based on sexual orientation.

I do not think trying to ban all politcal dialogue and petitioning is the answer. Would this issue even be raised if a church was renting school property and asked people to sign a petition to raise the minimum wage?

By its actions the Lake Washington School District also would prohibit any school levy group from renting its facilities to promote passage of a levy. Is this what they want to do?

Americans love being victims, and they love to feel superior to others (so much for our "classless" society). Clergy like Hutchinson realize that and play into it.

The idea of the persecuted Christian, so ridiculous to clear-thinking people, is alive and well in the megachurches, where the whole system is geared towards an "us against them" approach.

Their forced "fellowship" and manufactured "community" reinforces this idea, and the wide range of activities both encompass the members and ensures that they are limited to outside exposure. Why bowl with a Lutheran or a Jew when you can bowl with your fellow church members?

Yet American Consumer Culture, in pure dollars and cents, enthusiasticlly supports the "evils" that these churches rail against, which shows that either this "Christian" influence ends at the church door, or that these people are a small chunk of the population with inordinant influence.

It seems that it's not a question of having both guns and butter anymore - it's a question of having both porn and prayer. I'd argue that porn and prayer can get along without the conflict, but that doesn't fill the tithing boxes, and it doesn't give you that warm fuzzy feeling of moral superiority.

DC: Hutch is opposed to a gay lifestyle and wants a better life for people who have chosen this way. As a black man himself he likes to point out that he has met several ex-gays but has yet to meet an ex-black person. His view of gay people has nothing to do with hate except in the sense that if we love God we are to love what he loves and hate what he hates(sin). It is a "love the sinner but hate the sin" viewpoint if you will. The choices you make are between you and God but Christians won't tolerate laws being changed to support and protect this sinful lifestyle.

Fnarf: Nobody asked to debate American history with you, rather the implications of living for Christ. church is an important aspect of a Christian lifestyle but it's not the most important. Anyone can go to church and feel warm and fuzzy, it's what you do the rest of the week that counts and how you apply the sermons message to your life. And for those attending churches that don't convict them, it's time to find a new church!

Who the fuck is "hutch" to want a better lifestyle for anybody?

No, I take that back. I want the members of the Antioch Christian Church, and similar spirituality factories, to have a better lifestyle. One where they have sufficient intellect to recognizes scam artists with dubious degrees for what they are: leaches on society.

As for me, I hate the sin of misrepresenting divinity, and I hate the sinners who engage in it. And I pity the people stupid enough to buy into it.

Yo, Got Jesus.

Hutch's position is about hate, who told you otherwise? Hutch? America is not a Christian Nation, so the Christians should not be your only source for the "correctness" of homosexuality. Homosexuals say this is hateful. Gays are more qualified to comment on what is hate or kindness directed towards the group. They say hate. Find me a organized group of gays, and not the so-called ex-gays, who have a legit status with the other gay groups that agree with Hutch.

Also, this love the sin and hate the sinner bullshit is not at issue with anyone but Fundi Christians. Sin is not a crime. Yes, some crimes are sins, but not all sin are crimes. Kudos to you Christians for attempting to frame the debt as sin=crime. But you are wrong.

Phenics:
I think you might have your religions a little mixed up. Purgatory is a belief of the Roman Catholics where God gives you one last chance to explain yourself. The Bible states no such place. There is heaven and there is hell and your time to get things right with God is here on earth before you die. God sent His son, Jesus to earth to teach us how to love. Not how to tolerate sin. God allowed His son to die in our place of our sins. We are all children of God and sinners in need of His forgiveness. God does instruct us to love each other as He loves us and Jesus is our perfect model of what love is. But nowhere in my Bible does it say we are to tolerate sin. As I said earlier, we are to love the sinner and hate the sin.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20
“Everything is permissible for me”-but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”-but I will not be mastered by anything. “Food for the stomach and the stomach for the food”-but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said “The two will become one flesh”. But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in Spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Uh... Got Jesus? I've met tons of ex-Christians. Tons. Does that mean I should be able to discriminate against Jeebus freaks?

I do the hiring around here—shall I start asking folks if they're Jeebus freaks? I realize I can't, since it would be illegal, but maybe we need to get that law changed. If the only classes that deserve protection, in your view, are those that involve immutable traits like race or gender (wait—I know some ex-men...), then religion shouldn't be protected—nor should marital status or veterens status, both protected classes in WA state.

If Hutch wants to talk me out of being gay—good luck with that (you should see my boyfriend in a Speedo)—that's fine. But he's not content to do just that. He wants the state to deprive me of my civil rights—marriage rights—and equal treatment. That's not fine.

Being allowed to marry my boyfriend takes nothing away from you or Hutch, and does not infringe upon your right to think I'm going to hell. Surely you think Jews and athiests and Hindus are all going to hell, and yet fundy Jeebus freaks seem content to let them be. No massive effort to deprive them of their civil rights. All we homos want is the same deal the Jews are getting.

Fuck yeah! I hate those fucking people. Hutch will rot in hell next to Pat Robertson and that idiot who showed up with his flock brandishing "god hates fags' signs at Matthew Shepard's funeral.

I am actually an aethist and I don't believe in hell but I can understand why others are comforted by the hope that terrible hateful people will punished in the after life.

GJ: It's great that Hutch opposes the "gay lifestyle"... that of course is his choice. But to say that "Christians won't tolerate laws to support this sinful lifestyle" imposes your dogma upon me. Why should I have to "tolerate" what you stand for when the actions that follow kill children, break up families, cause heartache and impose burdens upon taxpayers? Assuming for a moment I buy into the whole notion of "sin" I'd like your take on which actions are more sinful- those that want to promote equality , justice and and improvement in the health and welfare of others... or those that seek to marginalize people because they want to impose their religious principles on all citizens.

"(O)nly losers would go to a church that meets in a gym ..."

So glad that a sensitive, tolerant, proletarian Seattle elitist cleared that up for us ... or maybe I'm projecting again. Or maybe Catalina has evolved from Psych 101 to more nuanced biases & bigotries.

Oh jeez... time for Bible quotes... Let's see, I'll pull my bible off the shelf (which for reference is the CCH Internal Revenue Code...)
Subchapter B, Part I, Section 61, subsection (a): Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived...

:)

I got more... about 12,000 pages more. I bet I can even bore Dan into a stupor...

"Being allowed to marry my boyfriend takes nothing away from you or Hutch ..."

Thought this initiative & the legislation to which is reponds were not about marriage. Am I mistaken, or has DOMA been repealed by Ed Marray & Governor-Select Gregoire when we weren't looking? (Getting a semi-sovereign state to invalidate federal law is a slicker trick than getting a few judges with delusions of grandeur to write law in a small eastern state.)

Thanks to Giffy for trying to explain the statutory authority for explaining what Hutch did or didn't do in his Sunday public school. I note, tho, that Giffy has gone from the USC to the RCW. Would David Wright or somebody please tell me whether state of fed codes govern in something like this?

And have you started to protest and petition yet against the WEA & Seattle schools for flirting with prayer in public schools during school hours?

Dave:
As far as I know, God does not have a "sin scale" where certain sins are deemed worse than others. If any of you want to know where I stand, read a Bible. That is where I obtain knowledge on what is sinful and what is right according to God. Hutch is my pastor and he knows the scriptures very well but even he challenges his congregation to search the Bible for themselves and live their lives according to what God instructs, not any one person.

Oh eat me, Loser. If you want to defend some church that seems to be just one step above (or below) Amway, that's your right.

And spare me your "liberals are so intolerant" crap. All I said was that anyone who goes to church in a gym is a loser. That's my opinion. I am not gathering signatures to outlaw going to church in a gym. I am not discriminating against people who go to church in a gym. I am not suggesting that going to church in a gym is a sin. I am just ridicluing people who go to church in a gym. It's called free speech, and that's about as proliterian a freedom as you can get.

And as far as elitism goes, I think an asshole eastside preacher who thinks that Je-he-sus tells him to discriminate is pretty elitist. So take your big words back to O'Reilly and ask him for some new ones. Or at least look up their definition, before you throw them around.

I am not gay and I don't assume that I can accuratly describe what it is like to be gay. I could could say that gays all talk with a lisp, wear tight clothes and listen to show tunes. I know this is not true just what I saw on TV. I am a Christian and most of what has been said about me is in a similar vein to my description of gays. Your description of the Church is from the outside looking in just as I am on the outside of your views. Nothing is gained from me bashing gays even if I think a active homosexual life is wrong I do not hate the person. There are many things that I believe are wrong but that does not terminate my frienship with those that practice them. I am a fucked up person and I would have no friends if they left me because of one wrong in my life. Please don't hate us for the mistakes wwe have made and will make in the future.

Hey, Got Jesus- you can throw scripture at me all day long to justify your beliefs, but you might as well be telling me that "being gay is a sin because the Leprechauns told you so". I get a kick out of christians using their own fictional text to back up their arguments as if it's the encyclopedia Britannica.

Well, "Got Jesus" or should I say Rev. Hutch? Nice bible quotes, but anyone can do that. No you have no clue what it means to be a Christian. Your quickness to condemn gays and catholics show you to be a bigot. Saying "no such place, not in the bible" goes to show that you are rev. hutch. Only a puritian pastor uses the same language you did to berate purgatory. Your gay-baiting shows hatred to gays. Nice try being an asshole Rev, you are succeeding really, really well.

your ignorance of the Christian view of purgatory shows just how far you are from the universal truth of God.

No, "Got Jesus", er, Rev Hutch, er "anonymous poster", you have been outted.

give up the anti-gay fight "got jesus". Me, my gay brothers and sisters, as will you, will stand in purgatory to answer for there sins if they will stand anywhere once they are worm food. And oh, sins are catagorized, btw. They are called venial and mortal sins. Sodomy is a venial sin, therefore, forgivable.

Dan:
Nowhere have I stated what other classes should be protected or not, or the issue of homosexual marriage and how that will most definitely infringe upon Christians, only that homosexual sex is a sin in the eyes of God. Let's not get off topic.

"Thanks to Giffy for trying to explain the statutory authority for explaining what Hutch did or didn't do in his Sunday public school. I note, tho, that Giffy has gone from the USC to the RCW. Would David Wright or somebody please tell me whether state of fed codes govern in something like this?"

The USC stuff was in reference to the issue of tax-exemption which is generally a federal IRS issues (however the state allows exemption too).

The RCW stuff was with regard to the use of public facilities in the states.

Not being a lawyer-I am curious-- How does a PTA group, (for example) get to use the school facilities to rally for a school bond or levy passage and/or the Seattle parents whom (I think) are using public facilities to rally against school closures? Aren't they collecting signatures in a "political" arena?

RE Got Jesus:

Us secular types don't really care what’s in the bible. It has little to no barring on our life. However what we do care about is the effect you believers have on the rest of us. Hence why we talk about laws and the like. If you want to get together in your little gym and blather about gays and whatnot go right ahead. I think that jacking off is a better way to relieve sexual tension, but I supposes obsessing about gays works too. Is it to much to ask though that you not try and get laws/keep laws that discriminate.

RE John:

See my post above, there does not seem to be an issue here. Both becasue such use is regular and normal and because it is not really a form of support.

Paul, for you to say "Your description of the Church is from the outside looking in just as I am on the outside of your views." is ridiculous. There are a lot of us out there who started out as Christian, who saw the hypocricy and intolerance first hand, and decided to bail.

There are also gay Christians who have reconciled their faith with the more backward teachings of the church, and remain Christian.

Gays and Christians are not mutually exclusive.

Giffy: "Us secular types don't really care what’s in the bible. It has little to no barring on our life."

A sad truth stated well. My question for you is where do we draw the line of tolerance? And by what standard if not the Holy Bible?

GJ,

I think all behavior should be tolerated that is consensual. I also think that the government should be neutral in these regards. Hence I favor the government not being in the marriage business. Civil Unions for all who want them.

As for what standard. How about any but the bible. Not sure if you have read the damn thing, but God is a bit of an ass in there. Lots of slaughter and rape and pointless killing. Not to mention the silly rules about clothing, shellfish, and menstruation.

Perhaps a "Prayer-In" is in order. Everyone so concerned about Hutch could form a human chain around the Kangeroo Gym some Sunday morning and ask the heavens for his redemption.

Got Jesus: I am honestly glad that you have found spiritual fulfillment at Antioch and from the preaching of Hutch...

HOWEVER, the fact that you (and Hutch) think that is what the Bible actually says is precisely the problem. Your quotes from Corinthians were certainly not written in English using the word "homosexual."

Seriously, if you are a true Christian, I URGE you to check out some books and talk to the many, many Christians who believe that folks like Hutch are misinterpeting the Bible and the teachings of Jesus.

Catalina Vel-DuRay

Do you want to meet and talk about these issues. I don't think this forum will resolve much.
baughn.paul@gmail.com

Mickymse:

I have checked out one book, it's called the Holy Bible! And I have already spoken to many "Christians" who are very good at twisting the scriptures to let themselves and others off the hook. Thanks for the heartfelt suggestions though, honestly.

Giffy:
"I think all behavior should be tolerated that is consensual"

You're kidding right?

"I have checked out one book, it's called the Holy Bible! And I have already spoken to many "Christians" who are very good at twisting the scriptures to let themselves and others off the hook. Thanks for the heartfelt suggestions though, honestly."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_Infinite_Cornucopia
"for any doctrine one wants to believe, there is never a shortage of biblical evidence to support it."

GJ,

I am certainly not kidding. Who the hell are you to tell consenting adults what they can and cannot do with each other.

"I think all behavior should be tolerated that is consensual"

That sounds an awful lot like "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" which was promoted by a dangerous radical a while back there. That same wingbat suggested that whoever is without sin should cast the first stone. What a whackjob. Thank GOD we put him in his place.

Hey guys, it's been real but I gotta' jam. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this issue. I think it's very important for more of these types of discusions to take place between real people and not just going off what we hear and see in the media. Thanks and keep posting, I'll check back in later.

Numbers 15:32-36:
Stoning of a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath
32 ¶ And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Amen. Let's write this into law, too.

Yes Rev. As soon as we clean house, senate, and presidency from your anti-gay, anti-catholic, anti-"it-ain't-in-the-bible-so-I-don't-have-to-accept-it" bullshit, America will be a better place.

"Oh eat me, Loser."

Got barf bags?

I got your barf bag right here, Santa ;-)

Heads up, people. Word on the street is that the Jeebus people are not amused. The looniest low-rent fringe of the lunatic Antioch fringe that gets its gutter religion served with jockstraps will get mad & get even. Somebody with flu du jour will invade Stranger headquarters & drool on your doorknops & keyboards.

This sounds way worse than hate crime or tripping up on 501(c)(3) tax exemption. Pretty sure that USA Patriot Act calls it terrorist bio warfare, even worse than gathering signatures in a parking lot. Call the Feds & shut Hutch down before he or one of his unhinged mainliners drools & tries to kill again.

You sound like a 'ho 'ho 'ho.

(signed) Santa

Deuteronomy 20:10-17
Genocide in the name of the LORD

16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 but thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

"Hey guys, it's been real but I gotta' jam. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions on this issue. I think it's very important for more of these types of discusions to take place between real people and not just going off what we hear and see in the media. Thanks and keep posting, I'll check back in later."

That's class.

"Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said “The two will become one flesh”. But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in Spirit."

Wait, did GJ!! just tell me to go have sex with jesus?

This is worrisome, as we are both men. He's turning me gay!

Got Jesus! - It's listening to your rhetoric that really makes me want to stop your attempt at destroying America and all it stands for.

You people are so damn narcissistic it defies reality. The whole world does not revolve around your bible.

Religious freedom buddy! I live in the gaddum U S of fuckin A buddy and I have a right to my own religion as do you. I also have a right to no religion at all. You don't have the right to push your Bible as the law of the land pal. We got’s us all kinds of religions here in aMerica. Are you truly advocating for a theocracy based on one offical interpretation of one religion?

You give me the heebie jeebies man really...

OK. So, say I'm gay. The anti-discrimination law gets taken down. I apply for a job, and I'm perfect for it, but they won't hire me because I'm gay.

How does that benefit me, Hutch, or Jesus?

Hell, say I'm *not* gay, but the hiring manager THINKS I am. What do I do, show him video of me sucking off my boyfriend?

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