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Sunday, March 26, 2006

Regulate This

Posted by on March 26 at 9:20 AM

Josh is telling Mayor Greg Nickels not to use yesterday’s post-rave mass shooting on Capitol Hill as an excuse to crack down on teen dances.

He’s not the only person trying to re-direct the impulse to crack down on something in the wake of such a tragedy.

This morning I watched an online video of Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske’s press conference after the shooting, and heard a pretty clear call from the chief for a crackdown on something other than under-age dance parties. Kerlikowske, sensibly, seems to want a crackdown on the kind of weapons that enabled so many young people to be killed so efficiently.

Here’s how Kerlikowske described the arsenal the shooter brought to the Capitol Hill after-party where he killed six people and then himself:

He was carrying a 12-gauge pistol-grip shotgun. And of course as everyone knows, a pistol-grip shotgun is designed not for hunting purposes, but for hunting people. He also had a semi-automatic handgun, and he fired multiple rounds with both weapons.

That language — “not for hunting purposes, but for hunting people” — is commonly used by gun control advocates.

Filling out the image of an urban people-hunter armed with weapons that probably shouldn’t be so easily available, Kerlikowske also noted that the shooter, who has not yet been identified, was wearing bandoliers, which are ammunition belts that drape over the shoulder and across a person’s chest. Note the plural: bandoliers. When he burst into the house the shooter was wearing multiple bandoliers stuffed with shotgun shells, and had additional clips at the ready for his semi-automatic handgun. He fired dozens of rounds inside the house, Kerlikowske said at the press conference.

It’s not surprising that gun control was on Kerlikowske’s mind yesterday. As has been reported, less than 24 hours before the shooting Kerlikowske was given an award by Washington Ceasefire, this state’s major gun control group. The group’s web site doesn’t say exactly what the award was for, but I bet it was for his lobbying to close the “gun show loophole,” which allows people in Washington to buy fierarms at gun shows without background checks.

Seventeen other states have closed the gun show loophole. Not Washington. This year, two bills to close the loophole died in the state legislature.

“We’ve traced guns back that had been involved in crimes that were obtained at gun shows,ā€¯ Kerlikowske told King 5 TV in December, in a report that’s posted on Washington Ceasefire’s web site.

I wonder: When they trace the weapons used in the Capitol Hill shooting back to their original source, will the original source be an under-regulated gun show?

To drive home the flimsiness of the current gun show regulations, here’s how a former local U.S. Attorney described Washington’s gun show loophole to King 5:

Osama Bin Laden could walk into a gun show in Washington state and purchase a semi-automatic easily changeable into a fully-automatic assault rifle no questions asked, no records run.

CommentsRSS icon

Eli - right on target. Cops hate asault rifles and hand cannons, sawed shotguns, as they are also called.

Remeber the Cop Orgs. all over the US supported the extended ban on asault rifles which Bush screwed.....couple of years back.

They die along with the reast of us when these guns are on the street.

You make the point well - this guy was very well prepared to kill a lot of people. Extra ammo, killed everyone in site,. killing machine, searched up stairs and in rooms for more to kill. The arrival of the cop in two minutes was fortunate. I think he would have killed neighbors, on lookers, straglers and the wounded if he had five more minutes.

Very well prepared for mass murder.

I support total gun control.... this might help get some measure or two passed next legislature. We can hope.

ABOVE-- Hear we go again - you are an ass.

If anyone at the party had been carrying the guy could have been put down before he killed so many.

There are two sides to the issue - keep that mind.

yeah, thast's the answer, brian! MORE GUNS!


It amazes me how idiotic gun nuts are. Clearly the guns were the problem in this issue not the lack of guns by other parties. Ask the cops if they would've prefered more people at the party carrying guns.
On Sunday moring in Seattle; on a liberal blog; the day after six perople were gunned down; gun nuts out number sane people in the comments? Doesn't look good.


ANYONE with ANY political agenda needs to check themselves.

The names of the dead have not even been released and people want to use the shooting to stir up shit for a story or political agenda. Stop it. Now. Please.

Let's be quiet for a minute. Let the Police do their jobs. Let the families and friends grieve.

If the journalists want to do something, then go get the facts. Get them to us. Stop being activists for a second and get the straight dope on what has happened. Then we'll use it when it becomes time to debate the fallout - if there is any. So far no one in office has commented on the shootings relationship to all ages dances. Only journalists and one person running for office is commenting on that. Please don't exploit this terrible event for your own agendas.

It's Sunday. 7 people are dead. Giving us a brief moment of quiet would be the best thing anyone can do right now.

PS - the Stranger's coverage of this is generally great so far by the way. I have been reading it since yesterday afternoon. So please don't take this as a slag on it. I just have a feeling we don't need to be preached to right now about anyone's personal or political agendas.

this IS the straight dope.

the stranger is reporting what the police chief said and provided further background on what the police chief was talking about. all in all that is GOOD reporting.

now get all your gun nut and gun control panties out of their twists.

I think someone who is sensitive about their 2nd Amendment rights should not be labeled as a "gun nut" so easily. This IS a liberal blog, and as a liberal, I'm concerned about civil liberties (our Bill of Rights), and that includes the 2nd Amendment.

I echo Meinert: let's cool it on the political end for a moment.

Yes, we should all be very sensitive to the feelings of the gun nuts at this time of tragedy. They're the real victims here, not the people who were in that house. Maybe you could help yourself get through this by talking some more about different kinds of weapons and calibers and the difference between full-auto and semi-auto and all the rest. I'm sure it will be very soothing to the families and friends of the dead. Maybe you'd like to go down to the scene and tell them directly.

For those of you who are directly affected, I'm really sorry. I'm sorry for your loss, I'm sorry for the pain that bled out over that neighborhood yesterday morning, I'm sorry for the hole in your heart that's never going to go away as long as you live. And I'm sorry that some people can't even wait until your loved ones are cold before taking up their bodies in service to their various causes.

Don't forget that the former U.S. Attorney who was the president of Washington CeaseFire was shot to death in his basement, an unsolved homicide. Yet the most urgent domestic threat on Homeland Securities list are environmental extremists who's body count still stands at zero.

But using this tragedy to promote a political agenda is craven, whether you are against raves or against guns.

The gun issue, like gay issues, appeals to the committed liberals and drives swing voters in Ohio to vote Republican.

The goal should be more chill music lovers, safe together in houses. Not more gun nuts packing heat. But it would be politically desirable to force the issue onto Homeland Security and make the Bush Administration take on the gun lobby as a logical extension of the War on Terror.

Articulate sheep hearders take over.....but I am a free spirited goat.

It has been over a day- 28 hrs. Mom of one dead person complaining - YESTERDAY - about how long it took for the cops to call her, late last night, and she had already talked to her kids friends.

So, what is the big hang up using the phone to call parents?

Cops too busy, weekend overtime? What a second rate job from the medical examiner folks. Who is this creep who has embarrased the city? FEMA like stuff......just taking out time to pick up the phone......days go by.

Let the cops do their job? Shit. Last time I did that I got the shit beat out of me on Pine street for going near a peace demonstration.

Seattle sheep. Expected a bit more.

There is some kind of internal conversation going on in the cop shot about how to spin control he events. Bad for tourism? City liability?
Some verified horror about the shooter?

They had his vehicle, took one minute to identify him - computer in cop car - or his wallet off the body.

Liz thinks it takes pony express to contact his mommie. You use the phone - or call local police where mommie lives. THEY drive to the mommies house. Takes a few minutes for low level help.

Something brewing --- the cops like to take credit. Chief a star on TV - cop early on the scene -- killer sees him shouting - shoots himself. NO negs for cops at that point......

All VERY good for the cops - whats the stall?

I did my silence thing yesterday. Sorry Mr. M --- this is not an unruly mob who needs tatked down at the murder site. Just a blog on a slow Sunday in Seattle.

Let the cops do their job - boy, thats rad.

Looks like two days to tell the world who the killer is - circa 1895 action team.

Sleeping in Seattle - is this Aruba without the sun?

Wow. Could we post more speculation? The fact is we don't know where the killer acquired his weapons. As for under-regulated gun shows, has any one posting ever been to one? I doubt it. Unfortunately the media doesn't mention that if it was run by the Washington Arms Collectors (WAC - the largest gun show organization in the Sate) there IS a background check required to purchase a weapon. The same as if you went in to a brick-and-mortar.

Was the killer over 18 and not a felon? If so, he had every right to purchase and own the shotgun. Over 21? Yup, a legal handgun owner. The evil pistol-grip shotgun? A marvelous home defense weapon.

Why is that in states and cities with the strictest gun control is violent crime the highest? See Boston, Wash DC, LA, Baltimore and Chicago. Seattle is literally a safe haven compared to those locales, and we (gasp) allow owenership. Did you know that automatic weapons are legal in Portland and Boise? My God - crime there should be through the roof. Well, it's not.

Think, don't react.

GT_MULE: You and your ilk are fucking assholes.

Maybe you'd like to go to seven funerals and get up and talk about the merits of pistol-grip shotguns.

You know what's a really great tool for protecting your home? A fucking huge dog, a German Shepherd, a Rottweiler, anything with teeth that'll defend its territory to the death. Most criminals, especially violent criminals, are cowards. They don't want to deal with any kind of fight, even if it's with a four-legged, furry animal.

The second you bring a gun into your home, the chances of you or a loved one being the victim of gun violence skyrockets. That might be because, when people get angry and there's a gun in the house, they use it.

Or the previously unarmed intruder can take it away from them and kill them with it, like a guy did to my grandparents.

Since the subject came up, how can anyone think that a 'War on Guns' would be any more successful than the 'War on Drugs'? If somebody is willing to pay for something, somebody will provide it.

Thanks FNARF,

Since your late grandparents can't handle a weapon, we all shouldn't have one. Excellent logic.

yeah, thast's the answer, brian! MORE GUNS!


Ah. A rare moment of agreement. Excellent. Unless (grin) that was sarcasm>?

I am not an ideologue on this - or any - issue. I do like solutions that work, period. If it works but doesn't fit my notions of what is 'right' well that's too damned bad.

Gun control does not seem to work. Strike that - controlling _anything_ in that fashion does not seem to work. Drugs, weapons, booze, sex ... we've tried to legislate against them all at various times and places and they're still around.

It amazes me how idiotic gun nuts are. Clearly the guns were the problem in this issue not the lack of guns by other parties. Ask the cops if they would've prefered more people at the party carrying guns.

Of course the polar opposite - open carry and no licenseing - may not suit all places and times. Surely we can have a reasoned debate without recourse to name calling?

I would think it wasn't the gun but rather the fellow using the gun. But I am a simple sort of guy.

And to - perhaps this isn't the place and time (shrug). When is?

Fuck you, Will. Fuck you hard. My grandfather was a decorated soldier. Why don't you turn your motherfucking guns on yourself. Scumbag.


Turning a gun on myself would be very unsafe. I'm sorry your grandfather was murdered. Please don't use it as an excuse to take away my Constitutional rights based on a horrible tragedy.

I sure respect Fnarf so much more after his crazy plea to emotion (/sarcasm).

Unsafety is precisely what I had in mind for you.

You know, Will, I don't really give a shit about gun control. That's not what's making me angry. What's making me angry is the too-predictable way that you and your fellow gun nuts have immediately popped up and shown everyone why you're called nuts.

You always show up with the pathetic Dwight-Schrute-like hard-on you all get when you fantasize about how YOU could have prevented this tragedy if only you'd been there blazing away like the superstud you dream of being, in your comic-book world where every problem can be solved with firepower.

You always turn every event towards your OWN little pet cause, because the victims, their families, their loved ones, the community -- none of that matters compared to your fucking bogus "rights".

You know what? Even if you're right, your presence is still INAPPROPRIATE, because your REACTION is inappropriate.

You don't give a damn about the dozens of lives that were destroyed yesterday, just like you don't give a damn about my grandfather, and think it's a funny joke. Poor old man -- poor silly young ravers -- pussies were too weak to defend themselves, not like YOU.
You're a bunch of fucking Dick Cheneys, and you make me want to fucking puke.

So maybe you'd like to take your repulsive Wild West fantasies of defending the homestead back to Montana or Texas, someplace where you won't bother anybody. We've got a city here, and we're suffering through a horrifying tragedy, and all you want to talk about is what kind of ammo your cock substitute takes. Well, we don't want to hear it.

That's what it boils down to. That's what makes me so mad. It's not your fucking Second Amendment, which you don't even know how to read; it's your contempt for your fellow citizens. This is the worst tragedy to hit Seattle in a long time, and your reaction is to reach out and hurt the victims some more.

Have some fucking decency.

Eat shit, Gomer. Seven people are dead. Emotion is perfectly appropriate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'm not interested in whether you respect me, Gomez. I just wish you'd respect the people in this town who are suffering. But in your world, this town only has one resident, doesn't it?

Very quick comment, as the debate could very well become a big thing anyway...

but to anyone that's saying "gun freedom = less deaths", you guys are really really dumb.

Ever look at the stats of innocent victims of gun deaths in other Western countries that *do* employ gun control? Spits in the ocean. Do they happen? Sure.. but far more rarely.

If you want to argue that the *U.S.* is a lost cause for gun control ever, then that's a more interesting debate.

But this is going to be debated anyway, so might as well hold off until more information is provided about this story. :(

Also, "Boston, Wash DC, LA, Baltimore and Chicago"

Conveniently big cities to use to debate gun control. Maybe they have more deaths because they're bigger cities and have more complex histories that have nothing to do with gun control?

Anyway, I'll stop the talk about this now.


I am very sad for what has happened to those kids. I don't claim that, if someone was armed, it could have been prevented. What I reacted to very quickly was the leveraging of this tragedy into a call for more and tighter gun control. I didn't show up on the scene saying 'it coulda been prevented.' I reacted because someone said 'let's ban all these guns.' The fact is we know very little about the crime as of now. We don't know how they aquired the guns. This Kyle Huff is a murderer. He's dead now, but his apartment was search and police found all sorts of weapons, including a grenade. If he's involved, I want his brother charged. (Everything is speculative right now, we don't know if he was involved). I don't have a cowboy viewpoint. And I CAN read the 2nd Amendment, even if you don't agree with what it says.

FNARF- read about your family loss and guns. Very sorry. I support gun laws, strict gun laws.

Several observations about the living twin. The case against him will be hard to push unless he really was in a conspiriacy wtith his bro.

Mere posession of more arms will not work, and commom area yields can be attributed to the dead Huff Brother by a good attorney.

If he knew, IMHO, he would not have wandered home that pm.

These two came to the Hill - I remember seeing them Really big, like two sloppy dressed pro footballers. Alike, but not mirror twins. Not pretty boys, a tad out of place.

Remeber seeing them at Madison Market and remarking to my buddy. I have an eye for beefy guys.

Disarming America is 100 years away. The gun game is also BIG business.

Right, Will. Are you and Kyle Huff in the same "well-regulated militia"?

You suggested that my grandparents' murder was their own fault because they "can't handle a weapon". That's your own quote. By extension, you're saying the same about these kids.

This guy wasn't crazy and he didn't "snap". He was a nice normal responsible gun owner, liked to hunt, polite to old ladies. But he had a huge arsenal. And any hint of a suggestion that maybe there ought to be some way to prevent people from amassing arsenals like that brings out the Second Amendment die-hards, the Dick Cheneys and the Charlton Heltons.

Well, guess what? The 2nd Amendment does not guarantee or mention the rights of individuals to bear personal arms. And it certainly doesn't suggest that controlling the ownership of them is a bad idea.

You liberal people make Me sick. First of all there is no such thing as a gun show loophole. Everybody who buys a gun at a gunshow gets a background check. Banning guns is not the answer. This state already has enough gun laws a few more will not prevent a nut from harming innocent people. With a total gun ban only the criminals would have
guns and gun crime would increase.

You liberals need to check your facts. First of all there is no such thing as a gun show loophole. Everybody who buys a gun at a gunshow gets a background check. Banning guns is not the answer. This state already has enough gun laws a few more will not prevent a nut from harming innocent people. With a total gun ban only the criminals would have
guns and gun crime would increase.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

I apologized about your grandparents. It's not their fault that they were murdered. Same goes for these kids.

OK, Will, let's try this. You're wrong, but I don't want to argue about it, so I'll take a different tack: let's say your right to own a bunch of guns is unabridged and legal. Great. But I think you suck, I think your guns suck, I think your desire to own them is sick and twisted and sucks, and I don't want you or people like you anywhere near me. You can go off and rack your chambers with Bigdukesix and the other Nazis.

The tool is not responsible for its use. Someone who is homocidal can select any tool to murder with. Yes there are specific tools designed to be very effective at taking life. But whether the murderer used a vehicle, a sharpened stick, or a nuclear bomb isnt the point.

This horrible crime might well have been prevented if the killer had access to mental healthcare. Whatever depression, psychosis or delusion was going on with him might have been noticed before he acted on it. He might have sought help if he had a regular relationship with a physican.

Should guns be regulated? Of course. just like vehicles they are inherently dangerous if not properly used. Should they be banned outright? Not possible in this country without an amendment to the constitution.

I think an attorney would know more about the subject than someone on a comment board:

"To drive home the flimsiness of the current gun show regulations, hereā€™s how a former local U.S. Attorney described Washingtonā€™s gun show loophole to King 5:

Osama Bin Laden could walk into a gun show in Washington state and purchase a semi-automatic easily changeable into a fully-automatic assault rifle no questions asked, no records run."


"But I think you suck, I think your guns suck, I think your desire to own them is sick and twisted and sucks, and I don't want you or people like you anywhere near me."

To have that opinion, that's your right. Just so you know, there are people in your neighborhood, maybe even next door to you, who own guns, and they manage to not shoot people. You have had bad experiences with guns, so you dislike them. That's ok. But lots of gun enthusiests are regular, decent folks.

The sickness that is violence starts _between_someone's_ears_, not at a gun show or a sporting goods store. A gun will never ask you for your wallet, rape you, your mother or sister, or kill 6 people at an after party. It takes a sick fucking twisted nutjob piece of human waste holding a gun to pull all that shit off. I would think that "enlightened progressives", as liberals like to call themsleves (sheesh), would know that. How sick is it to affix blame to an inanimate object? The one to blame killed himself in a supreme act of cowardice. He's not around to be mad at anymore? Too bad. A gun in the right hands could have stopped this horror cold, and you folks would be holding that person up as a hero, but one doesn't exist this time.

And, I'll probably get slapped with the "gun nut" label too. Fine. If believing in your right to defend yourself and your family with the best tool for the job and preparing with expensive training I've paid for out of my own pocket makes me a nut, than I am totally OK with that. That is perfectly fine with me. Sticks and stones, and all that bullshit. To those that would like to take away a law abiding citizens ability to defend themselves, if the need arises, and tell us to trust the police and the criminal justice system to protect us, I say you are blind. The facts and numbers don't support your utopian fantasies. The police couldn't protect six people, how can they protect 60,000, or you, or me? They can't! They will tell you they can't!

Pistol grip shotguns are common, and often used for deer and turkey hunting. This is the first time I, personally, have ever heard of a shotgun described with a pistol grip being used for a cold blooded murder.

Have a nice day.

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