This house party was at a house that was rented by people who are legally adults. The majority of the "kids" who were there are legally adults. The man who shot everyone is also an adult. Kids aren't scary, adults with guns that can be legally purchased evidently are.

Seems like blaming the victim to me. If a guy walked into a rest home and shot a bunch of eighty-year olds, would they be saying "ban rest homes?"

Sigh.

We all know this. How do we make the folks who read the Times know this?

keep in mind though, the only people who register guns are law abiding citizens.

So anyone who is shooting people up will obviously just carry illegal weapons. It has a LOT more to do with the level of safety you feel in a group that practices "peace, love, unity and respect"

for God's sake, do you really THINK that you'll be gunned down in your own home amongst a group of 20 friends?

so because i feel safe, i will be shot?

not, psycho has gun so i will be shot?

y'all is nutts ralph.

Sorry, Ralph. Like "socialized" medicine, gun control works—but conservatives who oppose both would like us to believe that neither can be done. Anyone who has lived in Western Europe or, say, Japan, knows that gun control works.

I own numerous weapons, I would never use them to harm innocent people. There is a distinct difference between me and the killer--I have a conscience.

Well said Dan. It was the same with this morning’s news morning shows. The focus was on the music the kids listened to, and the name of the dance on Capitol Hill.

It is as if they ( the media) are afraid to speak of the real problem, which is, as we all know, easy access to high-caliber weapons that were never intended for hunting. The US constitution’s right to arms’ intent was to protect against government tyranny and British invasion, not for citizens in the 21st century to have easy access to war weapons.

Big difference with shotguns intended for either assaulting a house when breaking down a door or walking point in a jungle warfare setting and a small caliber hunting rifle. Huge difference and access to those weapons is the problem. I mean the crazy bastard had banana clips, assault rifles and a fucking greanade!

This stupid fetish with the constitution is a huge problem for a modern democracy. This deranged need to have access to high caliber weapons has to stop.

The kids and young people who attended these dances were good, solid, creative young people, a lot of ‘em were even straight edge drug free, but the media seems to be looking for a drug culture youth gone wild angle. Nothing could be further from the truth; these young people could not foresee that a nut from Montana was partying with them. They invited the killer to their party because they were friendly, community oriented young people.

Electronic music had nothing to do with this. Crazy deranged people can be found at Mariners games and Seahawks games by the truck load. Nobody was calling for new laws against Mariners game when some deranged swordsman attacked some people some years back.

Crazy, deranged, murdering mother-fuckers can be found anywhere and this crazy deranged motherfucker just happened to have been invited by some good people to an after party.

Remember some years back when some deranged motherfucker killed a bunch of kids in Scotland? What did day cares have to do with that? Nothing. It was a crazy motherfucker with access to a knife. Crazy mother fuckers need to be in mental institutions and you can thank Reagan for cutting money for mental health services and for sending insane people to jail instead of mental institutions.

It sickens me to see the political opportunism in some. My heart goes out to all the family and to all the young people who have lost so much. I was sickened yesterday by some posters on Sound Politics and their need to push some sort of family values agenda.

Young people need support in times of tragedy and loss, not regulation and I told you so.

yeah, that's why you're not the killer. felons should not have gones, killer was a felon and got a gun. so somewhere a hole was found .. that hole should be plugged. no one's blaming a sane gun owner and i'm not talking about taking your rights away. but, you have no right blaming the victims for not packing. their not packing isn't what killed them. that would be the fault of mr. psycho huff and whichever asshole gave him guns.

Especially nutty: the shooting took place at 7 a.m., not exactly a wild-and-crazy middle-of-the-night time. Not only did this not take place at the rave, it took place during a usual time of the day for people to be up and around.

What kind of law could've helped that poor 15-year-old girl? Maybe if it were illegal for her to ever move beyond a 10-foot radius of her mother, I suppose, but that's not a practical solution.

perhaps the seattle times want's teenagers in bed by 7pm. and not out of the house unless at school or in daycare. wandering the streets, strike that, enjoying a good time at a private residence at 7am is just plain crazy.

The premise that only law-abiding citizens register guns is ridiculous for many reasons. First, it's just not true. I don't have statistics, but I'd wager anything that countless shootings have been perpetrated by people with their very own, registered weapons. Also, law-abiding citizens can lose it too. Everyone was a law-abiding citizen once. Further, guns get stolen from law-abiding citizens. Further still, many guns don't have to be registered or can be purchased at gun shows, etc., all in a perfectly "law-abiding" way.

It's pretty simple: No guns, no shootings.

A shotgun is hardly a "devastating war weapon". Oh, true, in confined spaces it's extremely lethal. And forget the "assault weapon" (Make? Model? Caliber? Picture? Any more info?). The assclown left that an all those rounds in his car.

Look boys and girls, I own two pistols (a .40 and a 9mm), a "tactical" shotgun (H&K Fabarm in 12ga) , and an "assault weapon" (DPMS 6.8SPC M4 clone). I also served in the Marine Corps so I have a pretty good idea of how to employ those weapons. When traveling to and from the shooting range (weapon locked and unloaded in an non-accesible spot, ie the trunk), I usually carry anywhere from 100 to 4 or 500 rounds of ammunition in the car. Does this mean that I am going to go on a shooting rampge and start killing people like it's going out of style? Negative.

The only reason this happened took the cowardly way out and shot himself in the head. Don't blame the kids, raves (probably drugs and alchohol), or the guns. Blame the sick asshole who decided Capitol Hill was the wild fucking west.

He's the ONLY reason this happened.

what we can't blame the asshole who sold this psycho a gun, when he shouldn't have had one as he has a prior felony on his record?

In a sense, you're right RIPRAVER. He is the only reason this happened. But what people who are against gun-control seem to have a hard time understanding is that without the guns, this person's rampage would have almost certainly been far less deadly. Why is that always left out? Don't blame the guns, blame the person. Sure. But the fact that he had easy access to all the guns he could possibly want seems more than just incidental, don't you think?

There is simply no doubt that access to deadly weapons is a huge factor in tragedies like this. It is frankly absurd to claim otherwise. It takes nothing away from the culpability of the shooter to acknowledge that if he hadn't had all those guns (not to mentioned been playing with guns all his life), this probably would have gone done much differently, or not at all.

Is there any confirmation that Huff was a felon? What I read was that he had been charged with a felony but that it apparently had been resolved in some manner. If he had not been convicted of a felony, he is not a "felon" and his right to own a firearm would not be restricted.

I agree about the Seattle Times editorial, by the way. And worse - they talk about young adults too. Yep, young adults need to be monitored! (I'm 54, and I have kids, and the last thing I want to do is chain my sons . . . :eyeroll)

What people don't seem to get is that this could have happened at a Denny's, just like the several shootings at Denny's in California a week or so ago. It could have happened at effin' Safeway!

So maybe we should close down restaurants and supermarkets, because people who go to those places deserve to have some nut go postal on them. That's the level of so-called logic at work by those who are making rave or teen culture the focus of this.

This could have happened to ANY OF US, in or out of the rave scene, club scene, or frickin' opera, ballet, or theater scene. Those that can't see that are proving that denial ain't just a river....

No way would I even care to read the editorial.

The guy was suicidal—enough said.

It is profoundly disturbing that one kind of person commits suicide by taking a bottle of pills. Another type sets up a sickening drama like our friend Hunter S. Thompson (who shot himself in the head while speaking to his wife on the phone). And finally, the big testosterone assholes, who take out as many people as they can before they take their own life.

This information is common, and it has nothing to do with youth or parties. It has everything to do with access to guns and the mental state of being suicidal.

"But how many new rules and regulations do we need to make sure that something that has never happened before does not ever happen again?"

As many as are needed to keep people from owning things that no law abiding citizen has any rational need for? Like, say, grenades. Automatic weapons. The list goes on an on.

Asking for these items (with low accuracy, good mainly for spraying people at close range) to remain legal is like saying that it's ok to prepare for mass murder (in self-defense, of course, or as a hobbyist) so long as one never actually does it.

you knew the times would go down this road. you know others in town will too. i also know that your paper and ours ain't gonna stand for that shit. i also know that 1000s of our neighbors on the hill and elsewhere won't stand for it either.

philip

It must be very comforting to yourselves, Ralph and Ripraver, to think "I'm not like the killer". But you and all you other gun freaks out there, stroking yourself off while you type your calibers out with one hand in the face of decent people -- you are exactly what Huff was. You celebrate the instruments of death. Just another guy loading tactical shotguns into the car. You make me sick.

Every gun nut on here that predictably defends the right of would-be felons to murder is contributing to the problem.

Guns don't belong in private citizens hands, not to this extent. This is not hunting out in rural America. This is assault on other human beings.

I own no guns, and I am far more afraid of lone wack job losers than I am of police.
I've lived in Seattle for nearly 20 years, and am more scared of lone wack job losers from rural America than I am of police.

Get guns out of the hands of civilians.

Lone wackos denied these kids' right of free assembly, I don't see anybody crying a constitutional violation tear over that.

All I see is the usual second amendment losers believing they're somehow better than me and deserve the right to own private arsenals.

I have no private arsenal, I will never attack you, no matter what. I own no guns.

Can you say the same?

Liar.

Here's what a leader in the Madison/Miller community says about the tragedy and tonight's regularly scheduled Madison/Miller Community Council meeting, (which is now going to most likely be dominated by the talk of the murders):

"The assembled neighbors will surely need some time to talk about
Saturday's events, but I expect/hope that we will soon come to the
conclusion that the Police & Fire did a great job, and there was
nothing anyone could have reasonably done to avert the tragedy. In
other words, I expect that we will conclude that it was a terrible
fluke, and will [I admit it's early in the investigation] hold no
real lessons for us. I hope that after 20 to 30 minutes we can
return to the above agenda."

How dare anyone tell me as an individual that I do not have the right to protect my family? Guns protect people from bad people. Bad people will find a way to get guns regardless of any anti-gun laws. No one has the right to tell me that I am dependent upon the government to come protect me and my family. That's sick.

Great point, Beth.

And you know, maybe if those ravers were packing heat, this might not have happened. I certainly feel much safer at hip hop shows than I do seeing Factor-E with a bunch of drug addled youth - those kids could hug me at any time!

The tragedy of this whole thing is that it only takes a few dozen maniacs per year and a few thousand murders to give all legitimate compilers of personal arsenals a bad name.

Protect your family from what, exactly, Beth?

Come on, Beth. You know the answer. Say it.

It's Negroes, isn't it, Beth? You think Negroes are going to come into your house unless you load up with firearms.

You're full of shit, Beth.

Hey well what is the opposite of a backlash? Would that be a frontlash? You know when you have a positive result from this?

Let's not regulate teen dances, let's help them do it safely.

1) have a cell phone, ot at least one in your group
2) have a ride home planned so you don't have to wait for the bus. No ride home, then do something else, rent a movie.
3) use the buddy system, nobody goes out alone, nobody goes home alone, nobody goes home with strangers

It is not my place to say "and don't go to after parties with people you don't know" because I know how natural something like that can be, at least for _adults_. I don't think that underage kids should be out all night long but you know what when I was a kid we didn't have de Raves but we did go out all night long and neither my parents, nor anyone elses could anything about it.

Oddly enough, there was a volunteer organization in our area that offered a "SAFE & Free RIDE HOME" run by sober college kids and they had a hot line so if you were stranded or in trouble you could call and they would come and get you. I remember once when I was 16 me and my friends got stranded late at night and this organization saved us.

I don't know if Seattle has anything like that, but I would encourage the stranger to look at this and collect what information and tips they can and publish something.

I am just so shocked about this tragedy, I don't know anyone personally but I've seen some of these people in our neighborhood before, the faces are familiar and it just makes me so sad.

I'm not so much into the club scene here anymore.... But I did go out a lot when I first moved up here. If the club organizers or other people in the community put together a benefit show I am so there and I'm buying extra tickets.

May your preferred god bless

Psycho? Deranged? Nut job? Evil?
What an enlightened way to refer to a man who obviously was not well. It does not excuse the behavior, but I think it's important to consider the possibility that there were serious mental health issues involved. It's terrible that Kyle affected the lives of so many as a result, but let's remember that he maybe, possibly, could have been helped if the resources were available.
As far as the guns - why in the HELL would anyone - ANYONE! - keep guns in their home? This comes from a woman who grew up with hunters, and still I cannot fathom why they wouldn't be kept under lock-and-key in storage. The first step toward self protection is to lock the doors, not to keep a shotgun under the bed.

FNARF-

I typed my comment as I did to provide as much information as possible. You wish to call me a gun nut, that's fine. I spent 5 years of my life carrying a weapon and training on its employment, you may be right.

But then again, as you have the right to insinuate that I masturbate to gun porn, I also have the right to call you a slack jawed mealy mouthed little faggot who deserves the round that kills him or a family member because the cops don't get there soon enough.

And Daved, yes I sure can claim to never attack you. Of course, I can't claim to have never been shot at so you can live your peaceful little hippie bullshit life in Seattle.

Furthermore, if this had happened to a bunch of coked-out jocks, who goddess knows were partying until 7:00 am as well on Saturday, I will personally guarantee that no mention of the way the guzzle beer, smack each other's asses and paint their faces for some lame-ass sporting event, would be made. Unless it was done so endearingly. It infuriates me how the f#*king killer was called a "Teddy Bear". gag. clearly there is a hopelessness in America and these "kids" who someone above mentioned are actually ADULTS (minus one) were trying to have some joy and community in this senseless nation. I agree with Dan Savage, more control over who can have guns and how many (Christ!) and mental health dollars are steps to a solution. I know 2 of these kids and they were peaceful, functional members of society, mr. Teddy Bear claerly was not.

Nobody goes home with strangers? How is that going to be... practical? Don't people go to bars and clubs with the intent of meeting—and sometimes going home with—strangers?

Jesus.. You know, RIPRAVERS, FNARF's comment may have been insulting, but it wasn't bigotted, and he didn't say you deserve to die. Which one of you is the one who owns lots of guns again? I can't tell.

And Beth et al., it just ain't so. Your guns aren't protecting you from anything, they're just making it likely that you'll shoot your family members. Gun laws, REAL gun laws like "No Guns," most certainly do keep guns out of he hands of bad people. Check countries where guns are outlawed. Do they have lots of shootings? No. Do "bad people" break into poor innocent, unarmed people's homes and shoot them up with impunity? No. People in those countries don't shoot each other, plain and simple.

And even if once in a while something tragic happens, be reasonable. Would you really not trade the thousands of shooting deaths we have every year for a once-every-couple-years situation where a bad guy gets an illegal gun?

Dan, your point about gun control laws working in Japan and Western Europe is based in fallacy. The statement assumes that all three regions are perfectly equal in all ways, which simply is not true.

Japan is a relatively proper culture that takes the concept of honor and dignity very seriously. They're not the types to gun each other down. Western Europe is a culture relatively laid back. The US is mainly comprised of a bunch of inconsiderate assholes.

It's our culture, rather than our laws, that are the problem. Like the saying goes, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." Criminals and angry crazies out for blood will find a way to get their firearms one way or another, or simply use another weapon.

Plus, how are you going to push gun control? You could do it at the state and local level, but then someone who wants a gun can simply go to another state (like Montana) to get it. You could trying pushing federal regulations, but you've got to get past proponents of gun ownership in this and the other 49 states (many of which won't be receptive to your call, even though many have seen shootings far worse than last Saturday's), which is far easier said than done.

This was an isolated, deranged act, and the root cause is a larger social issue, namely that we treat each other like shit.

First of all most of you should get some firearm education before commenting on specifics. High caiber, low caliber, banana clip, assualt shotgun blah blah blah, it appears that none of you have any idea what you are talking about, except what Hollywood has taught you. I am a lawful gun owner and not at all a part of the usual stereotype associated with firearms, please stop blaming objects for the actions of a man.

Coming from you, Ripravers, I'll take that as a compliment.

Gomez, there's a difference between treating people like shit, and treating people like shit with a shotgun.

Gun-loving culture enables and to a large extent creates monsters like this. Ordinary, next-door, nice-boy monsters. That's who you should be afraid of.

I do not believe gun control is the answer in the United States. I do believe much more significant control of guns and/or ammunition would be great but I just don't think it will ever happen because of our culture. We the people of the United States elected George Bush as President after he started a war with no just cause - therefore this is not a group of people that are going to think about the good of the country or take away their own personal freedoms any time soon.

IMO the mistake is that Kyle Huff had his right to own firearms re-instated. The policy on firearms should be one felony conviction and you never can own a firearm and there should be no reductions in the severity of a conviction ever which allows a convicted felon to own a firearm. Maybe we need a separate category to track. Can you own a firearm; yes or no. It starts at yes and once it goes to no, it can never go back to yes.

By the way, blaming the "problem" on techno music or the rave seen is as ignorant as blaming premarital sex on television.

Hi Dan,

I was talking about tips for underage teens, not adults. That's all.

Thanks, and I appreciate your reporting.

How can the Seattle Times call itself a Seattle newspaper?

Beth says "No one has the right to tell me that I am dependent upon the government to come protect me and my family." Translation for the non-militia-enabled among us: "I shouldn't have to call the police if I witness a crime, I should just get busy and blow the fuckers away".

please stop blaming objects for the actions of a man.

Gun control is nothing. I'm sick of freedom haters stopping me from going to Wal-Mart and buying a NUKE. What's to stop Portland from invading us tomorrow? An assault rifle isn't going to stop a bunch of euthenasia-loving hippies from taking over our town and forcing some (brown colored) guy to pump our gas for us.

Until I have the freedom to stockpile some NUKES to protect my family, America will never truly be safe. Nukes don't kill people, people kill people.

(hint: the point of my post is that anyone against gun control is a certifiable retard)

The Times’ puritanical solution is to close secure, creative, safe, fun, all ages dances and drive our young people underground. Do they think people are just going to stop loving and creating music?

Who are these people?

Speaking of guns…Why cant gun lovers and the fuckers who love them, move to a compound in fucking Montana or South Dakota and stay away from our cities?

No one is saying you don’t have a right to own a stupid 22 rifle or a Glock or an Italian Beretta to keep at home so you can feel safe, even though, chances are someone is going to bust a cap on your silly ass with your own gun…but hey that’s your constitutional right, but why defend the right of people to have access to semi automatic rifles or shotguns that are clearly not for the so-called sportsmen? Why defend the right of these gun show assholes who pimp guns all over the country? Im sure Jefferson and his lot thought about gun shows when drafting the Constitution. They thought of semi automatic rifles, that nowadays wind up in the hands of Montana lunatics, Oklahoma Bombers, Columbine High School shooters, and Virginia snipers and a whole array of narcistic socio pathic nut jobs.

To the gun lovers who posted that shotguns and semi automatic rifles are not war weapons.

Allow me to retort:

Yes, certain shotguns (such as the one used here) can be used for warfare. In jungle warfare they were/are used for walking point and can be just as effective as an M-79 grenade launcher for bush clearing during an ambush, obviously not as devastating as an M-79, but very effective.

Semi automatic machine-gun style rifles such as the Bushmaster or semi automatic Ak’s can be easily converted to automatic. Yes the Bushmaster and the AR-15 is supposedly manufactured for hunters for their short barrel and lightweight, but like most of these types of rifles, it takes a small part to convert them to fully automatic, and from what I saw they found 30 clip cartridges instead of the standard 5. Yes, I know they become illegal after you convert them, but narcissistic sociopaths from Montana, Oklahoma, Kansas or South Dakota are not going to care. Duh!

For everyone who thinks that owning a gun might have stopped this horrible tragedy - consider this... who is likelier to shoot first and with more accuracy - you or a criminal who has an expressed intent to cause harm?

Are you so sure of yourself that you feel comfortable shooting first and asking questions later? Are you willing to be a murderer? Because a criminal or someone who, like Kyle Huff, is insane will not have that problem. The danger, then, is that in your attempt to be quicker on the draw, you may be cavalierly shooting your own son or daughter sneaking into the house.

This is a devastating tragedy and has nothing to with music or staying up late or being kind to strangers.

I'd like to make a point about Japan. The Japanese have such a low violent crime rate because they abhor violence, not because they don't have guns. Their rape rate is also practically nonexistent. Meanwhile, the United States' rape rate is the highest in the First World. This country is full of violent bastards.

That said, many incidents of gun violence are committed by previously law-abiding citizens. They got pissed off. They ran to their closet and grabbed their gun. They ran back and shot the person who pissed them off. If we didn't have access to such an easy method of harming/killing, our murder rate would be much lower.

Kesmeshi- Is that why they have mass suicides in Japan? Is that why the Yakuza controls vast sectors of Osaka and Tokyo through murder and violence? Is that why people go online in Japan and find each other to make mass suicide pacts? Because they abhor violence? Im sure the Yakuza would disagree with you.

Try another example man.

...what about beating and burning homeless people alive in Tokyo. homelesness in japan is considered a weakness punishable by death.

SEME, just by using the term "30 clip cartridges" it is clear that you have no fucking clue of what you are talking about. And just for the record, a shotgun will not clear brush. If you wish to debate this try staying within you knowledge base.

Wasn't that one of the points of Bowling for Columbine? That it was more about the culture of the United States rather than the availability of guns?

Yes 30 rounds, not clips, blah, blah. Jargon. The point is, he was using 30 instead of the standard 5 that comes with each magazine. You got the point.

And Yes Shotguns were used in Vietnam for walking point, and they are still used in jungle warfare. The term clear the brush is not meant as in clear the brush for landscaping purposes. Duh!. They have been used along with the M-79 grenade launcher. Stick to your knowledge base.

Let's face the facts here. The real blame lays with the pickup truck. Think about it... if he didn't have a vehicle then he could not have transported all of those dangerous weapons so easily. We could even take it a step futher and blame the gas station that supplied the fuel that allowed him to propel his death-mobile over to the ravers' house.

I have a sollution for the entire US. We can sell Washington state to China. That way you hippie fags can have your gun-free state and the rest of us can have our free country. Hell, the asians have already invaded anyway. Have fun speaking