See that? Hell, they ARE that. Hope the test includes beer tasting.

The equivalent test for UK citizenship now asks what you should do if you accidentally spill someone's drink when you're in a pub. The answer is that it would be "good manners (and purdent)" to offer to buy a replacment drink. Any nation that includes bar etiquette in its citizenship test is light years ahead of the USA.

See the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/britain/article/0,,1508615,00.html

it's also prudent to check your spelling. purdent? sounds like a punk band.

Dudes, the US is light years ahead of Europe when comes to dealing with immigrants. Only on paper--and not in reality--does Europe look like a sweet deal for an immigrant from a poor country.

I wish we could show the film to U.S. citizens and revoke citizenship rights based on a similar pass/fail system.

Maybe we could cut a deal with Iran, Saudi Arabia and a few others to welcome former U.S. nationals who favor wife beating, closeted homos, thoroughly covered breasts and patriarchal control over lady parts.

King Billy?

lol

I wonder if they watch for reactions from Northern Ireland's catholics who visit the Netherlands. Im sure they dont.

William of Orange led the battle of the Boyne a battle that is celebrated by Ulster's protestant majority to remind Ulster's catholic Irish minority that they were stomped by the Brits. Every July 12th Protestant Orangemen march through Belfast yelling racial and sectarian insults to the Catholic minority in the Falls.

King Billy, a nice symbol of tolerance?

To many Northern Irish King Billy ( William of Orange) represents Hitler. It would be like showing certain non Catholic Europeans pictures of Hitler,and ask them to identify him. I'm sure that would go over nice.

Why are they asking people to identify King Billy? lol To ilustrate European tolerance? Nice one, show a bigot and an invader as a symbol of tolerance.

Charles, do you get shown any similar kind of video when trying to become a US citizen? Details please! As hilarious or as bizarre as possible would be nice.

Muslim leaders found the video offensive? What a surprise! Holland naturally has the right to limit immigration to people who embrace Dutch values, and to exclude those who want to persecute topless, whole women and homosexuals.
Personally, just hearing about the video makes me wanna move there, since I'm probably for whatever religious fundamentalists are against.
Oh, and my brother-in-law became a US citizen a few years back, and as a consequence of studying for the citizenship exam, he now knows WAY more US history than I do.

Here's what I love about the video: it was produced by Holland's right-wing government. Of course, right-wing Dutch parties are to the left of our Dems, but even so...

And they show you King William because you do need to know a smattering of Dutch history—and it's not all tulips.

Yes, to become an American citizen I had to watch a really horrible music video to a country song that went something like: "And I'm proud to be an American/Where at least I know I'm free/And I wont forget the men who died and something or another, and something or another..." It ran for five minutes and I almost didn't make it to the end. The experience would have been much easier if the music video had images of naked American women bathing in the sun.

"it's also prudent to check your spelling. purdent? sounds like a punk band."

Well, there did used to be a band in town called "The Purdins", which is pretty close to "purdent"...

tangentally on topic: am looking forward to a time when circumcision will not need the adjective "female" in front of it to be thought of as repugnant.

Why does this thread remind me of Malcolm McDowell in A Clockwork Orange?

Why does this thread remind me of Malcolm McDowell in A Clockwork Orange?

Seme, on a history-nerd tangent, the William of Orange they're referring to in the citizenship test is William I (who dies around 1580), who was one of the leaders of the revolt which led to the creation of the Dutch Republic, and hence the independent nation of the Netherlands-- he's the big national hero.

The Northern Ireland/Battle of the Boyne William of Orange is William III, his grandson. Less important in the Netherlands, more so in the UK, where he ended up king after the Glorious Revolution.

Megan:

Good work catching Seme on his little Billy mixup. And William III was no more or less intolerant than the Catholic King James he defeated at the Boyne--it's not like James would have refrained from imposing his religion on Britain and Ireland had he won.

Bill(y)

The terrifying thing about King Billy -- the grandson who fought the Battle of Boyne -- is how many young Irish Catholics have been bred to believe that their own fathers or grandfathers fought him. Seriously. Watch "Four Days In July". Nutcase sectarian violence wouldn't be nearly the problem it is if we could somehow stop teaching it to our kids. Cf. Palestine.

I knew a woman who became a US citizen, and was absolutely spitting mad afterwards, because she missed ONE question on the history test having to do with the Gadsden Purchase (a sliver of southern Arizona and New Mexico). "The Gadsden Purchase! Who in their right mind gives a FUCK about the Gadsden Purchase!".
But then, she was an angry sort; she was once detained at JFK airport by a (apparently retarded) immigration agent, who refused to understand why someone from Northern Ireland would be holding a UK passport and not an Irish one. Hint for foreign visitors: "look, you fucking ignorant asshole" is not the best way to address immigration officials even if you are clearly in the right.

Thx Meg. That makes sense. I wondered why they would honor King Billy. Whose image one can find in Loyalist areas of Belfast, along with UVF UFF and other murdering gang murals.

Bill(y)

I never defended the catholic King James in my post, hell Im a recovering Catholic myself and he was just as repressive. However King Billy led an invasion and along with the Brits' started the plantation of Ulster in their hopes of kicking the Irish out and starting a Protestant homeland. Their legacy of invasion and sectarian hatred lives to this day. I was merely curious why a symbol of sectarian hatred ( which to many Billy is) would be on a citizenship test for Holland. Meg cleared it up.

Regardless on your feelings of the Boyne, one only needs to go to Belfast on the 12th of July and see the images of Billy along with the loyalist paramilitaries and the songs of hatred inspired by Billy and his invasion of NI.

NI can be just as filled with fundamentalist hate as any other "Islamic" society. So maybe "the west" is not inmune to this religious nonsense?

Seme:

I guess I was questioning your logic: "King Billy-a nice symbol of tolerance" implies that the opposite of KB would be somehow a symbol of tolerance.

Really, though, what's up here is the difference between requiring people to know Dutch history--largely tolerant, compared with much of the rest of Europe--and equating every thing they show in this video with symbols of tolerance (naked women, kissing men).

Knowing history means knowing lots of evil. And yes, it should be required.

I was in Ireland back in the early '90s, when the government was in a scandal over a proposal by the education minister to lower the amount of History required for A-levels (advanced high school, pre-college). I argued that Ireland was one place where less history should be taught rather than more, since people doing the teaching just keep the fires of sectarian violence simmering, so we agree about that.

But it's just not particularly apt to point out examples of Western violence and intolerance as equating to the current situation in the Islamic world. Northern Ireland is an anamoly, as is the U.S.'s religious right: the majority of the West doesn't kill each other over religion anymore or attempt to impose their religious convictions as secular law.

"I guess I was questioning your logic: "King Billy-a nice symbol of tolerance" implies that the opposite of KB would be somehow a symbol of tolerance."

Fair Enough, though I don’t think I was saying anything pro King James, but I see your point.

"I was in Ireland back in the early '90s, when the government was in a scandal over a proposal by the education minister to lower the amount of History required for A-levels (advanced high school, pre-college). "

Huge difference between the republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, though, my Nationalist friends there would not agree with me. ROI is overall a lot more tolerant, though, the Catholic Church is still very influential in civic life.

Ulster (NI) is a mess, despite the peace agreement, a society greatly divided by religion and the British legacy of colonialism. Peace walls cut neighborhoods in half, kids go to different schools ( Catholic and Protestant) and the two communities live in 2 different realities where they both see each other as victims. The British occupation of Ulster did not help matters any and though the disarming of the IRA has helped, the Loyalist and Protestant paramilitary gangs are still going around shooting Catholics and rioting, though lately they have been aligning themselves with England’s National Front and attacking immigrants and beating some of them to death. The BBC had a great piece on how anti immigrant violence has replaced sectarian religous violence in Ulster and in Scotland.

"But it's just not particularly apt to point out examples of Western violence and intolerance as equating to the current situation in the Islamic world."

Why not? NI is a part of the UK and so is Scotland, and thus the West, so its up for discussion just like societies in the Islamic world that are a wee more tolerant, like Jordan, or Lebanon or those that are not, like the rest.. ;). Lets not forget that Christian extremist (disguised as Militias) blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building in response to what they saw as Bill Clinton's godless goverment, so we must point out extremism in the West as well.

"the majority of the West doesn't kill each other over religion anymore or attempt to impose their religious convictions as secular law. "

We agree that European goverments dont, though one can not forget how Democratic European goverments helped genocidal goverments throughout Africa kill in the name of religon and other loony beliefs. But I think that its citizens engage in acts of extreme intolerance throughout Europe and its worth pointing out, since we can not forget that little genocide "thang' that the Europeans engaged in not only in their own countries but in Africa and other parts of the world.

My experience during my travels in Europe have been mixed, and I guess I would have less trouble with those statements of tests if European Union citizens would be asked questions about the beating of immigrants, the isolation of immigrants, the lack of jobs for immigrants, the nice anti immigrant chants you hear in Football ( soccer stadiums) throughout Europe and wether Europe is really commited to a multi cultural society. As an atheist, I'm all for seperation of church and state, freedom of the press, but I think this image of a free society for all is not something that I beleive is experienced by isolated immigrants through out Europe. At least thats not what I saw.

Nice site