Slog - Comments on Whither the Free Speech Fundamentalists? http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre Nazi apologist David Irving, as you may have heard, has received three years' prison from an Austrian judge for the crime of denying the Holocaust. That nasty little toad has been imprisoned for his ideas. So where are all those free speech stumpers who gave their full-throated shouts during the `Toon Wars? What steel-bellied editor is going to print a page of his poisonous invective to show the world that any opinion, no matter how offensive, should have a forum? That we should not succumb to the self-censorship? Or jail people for their rotten ideas? How rotten? Here's a poem... Copyright 2007 Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:49:22 -0800 Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:29:27 -0800 http://www.movabletype.org/?v=3.34 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Comment by Jerod I will. We were talking about this yesterday. Although in all fairness he was arrested in Austria for breaking an Austrian law. A bullshit law, yes. But it's not quite the same thing as the perfectly legal cartoons that had half the world's panties in a bunch calling for beheadings of the artist. Both are crap, yes. But you have to respect the laws of the country you are in. Many a poor, drug-laden Austrailian has found that out the hard way while travelling to Indonesia. It's no different.

]]> Jerod http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022268 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022268 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:18:20 -0800 Comment by David Summerlin What steel-bellied editor is going to print a page of his poisonous invective to show the world that any opinion, no matter how offensive, should have a forum?

Possibly Dan Savage? So far he has maintained a reasonable position for its consistency. I would be curious to see if his passion includes solidarity with David Irving. I remain consistent in my support of unfettered editorial discretion.

]]> David Summerlin http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022269 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022269 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:28:29 -0800 Comment by Eli Sanders Jerod: You write, "You have to respect the laws of the country you're in." I guess so, but this is a much more complicated proposition when you're dealing with words and images in the age of the internet. For example, if you were to read, in Austria, the anti-Semitic poem that Brendan just posted on the Slog, would that be an illegal act? Would it only become an illegal act if you read Brendan's Slog post outloud in an Austrian internet cafe?

I'm working on a piece for next week's Stranger that touches on some of these issues, in the context of censorship by U.S. tech companies in China. And I don't have an answer here, but I just want to complicate your response a bit.

We want free speech to be an easy issue. Unfortunately, it's not.

]]> Eli Sanders http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022271 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022271 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:35:12 -0800 Comment by Bill Remember, folks: what's illegal in Austria and several other European countries is NOT being an Anti-Semetic douchebag, or saying Anti-Semetic bullshit, but denying the historical reality of the Holocaust. So Irving's poem would not be illegal.

And the Daily Northwestern recently printed a column by our very own local Holocaust-denier, aptly-named electrical engineering prof. Arthur Butz. But they wouldn't print the Danish cartoons. Cowards.

]]> Bill http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022273 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022273 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:38:55 -0800 Comment by Jerod You're right, the internet does complicate things. Particularly when the illegal act is an idea as in this case.

]]> Jerod http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022274 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022274 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:46:47 -0800 Comment by Mickymse Bill puts the point on it above... I have no problem with people's opinions being allowed, no matter how offensive they may be.

I do, however, have a problem with someone who wants to publish outright falsehoods and inaccuracies.

Is that dangerous. Perhaps in a "Galileo says the Earth revolves around the sun" kind of way, but I'd sure love to put an end to the pseudo-science of many Republicans in this country.

]]> Mickymse http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022548 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022548 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:46:36 -0800 Comment by pwrye Parsing about 'falsehoods and inaccuracies' is exactly the problem with fettered free speech - and rigtheousness about 'western' freedom. What should a mullah say to his flock about the 'free' west now? And, how about public/private, for that matter? Check the link for Yahoo editing 'Allah'...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/20/yahoo_upsets_religious/

]]> pwrye http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022604 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022604 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:29:36 -0800 Comment by Dan Savage I wrote in, uh, the Slog comments the other day that I thought the laws in Europe banning Holocaust denial were unjust and should be repealed.

]]> Dan Savage http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022966 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c022966 Politics Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:59:58 -0800 Comment by Reverend Flash There's a difference between the David Irving story and the cartoon controversy. David Irving broke a law; the Danish cartoonists did not. Without a law being broken, the Muslim protestors were demanding a surrendering of the Danish cartoonists' freedom of expression, just to appease the Muslims' religious sensibilities. The law that David Irving broke was there for a long time. There is no surprise that he was penalized for breaking it, and thus, no outrage. It's not David Irving who needs our support in the name of freedom; it's the people of Austria, who live in a country where this law exists, denying them the seemingly basic Western belief that a person should not be penalized for expressing a point of view. If no one was moved to change this law before, David Irving's conviction should have no effect on it now.

]]> Reverend Flash http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c023685 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c023685 Politics Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:23:21 -0800 Comment by Dan Holzman "I do, however, have a problem with someone who wants to publish outright falsehoods and inaccuracies."

Me, too. That problem was properly addressed by Deborah Lipstadt and the U.K. court that ruled she did not libel Mr. Irving by calling him incompetent and a holocaust denier. It was improperly addressed by the Austrian court.

"Is that dangerous. Perhaps in a "Galileo says the Earth revolves around the sun" kind of way, but I'd sure love to put an end to the pseudo-science of many Republicans in this country."

I'd sure hate to do it by putting a single person in jail.

]]> Dan Holzman http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c023873 http://slog.thestranger.com/2006/02/whither_the_fre#c023873 Politics Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:29:27 -0800