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Monday, January 30, 2006

Our Own Big Dig

Posted by on January 30 at 16:29 PM

This cautionary tale about waterfront tunnels, written by Boston urban designer Thomas Oles, ran in this month’s Belltown Messenger. In it, Oles convincingly compares Seattle’s proposed Alaskan Way Viaduct tunnel to Boston’s disastrous Big Dig, noting that the transportation engineers who designed that monstrously expensive (and notoriously leaky) waterfront tunnel have recently acknowledged that “tunnels-surprise-will do nothing to reduce congestion, that traffic has already reached the levels predicted for the end of the decade.”

Oles continues:

Now I learn that what I fled in Boston is about to happen in Seattle, even involving some of the same actors. And cost overruns, graft, and faulty construction in Boston? Not to worry, right?-these are the products of corrupt East Coast political machines, of politicians with Italian names and friends who can get your legs broken. This is so much feel-good, back-patting Northwest pabulum: Large tunnel projects invite corruption and almost always run over budget and past completion date, and our local politicians are just as corrupt even if their personal style is more yoga-and-hiking-boots. To an ignorant observer it might seem the viaduct proposal is designed to assure that the project fails as spectacularly as possible while giving the most meager public benefit, continuing the proud lineage of transportation debacles-the bus tunnel, Sound Transit, and the Monorail-in Seattle over the last two decades.

In many ways the tunnel, with road capacity not at issue, is even more egregious than the Central Artery Tunnel: For the sake of 100,000 cars that could be carried on a series of large city streets or a shoreline boulevard like the universally admired Passeig de Colom in Barcelona, the Viaduct “solution” will create a 180-foot-wide new rip in the city at its south end in Pioneer Square, as well as leaving a piece of elevated expressway-historic preservation Seattle-style?-for tourists at the Pike Place Market.

In the face of all their obvious shortcomings, there must be some other reason why officials and planners love tunnels-and, for that matter, subterranean parking. Really. it is not a matter of faster trips to the airport, or more cars, or greenbelts, or any of the rest of it. What tunnels do for us is this: They mask the physical and moral ugliness of what Margaret Thatcher called the “Great Car Society” by pandering to our nostalgia, by sustaining our illusions of urban cleanliness and order. They are like the modern toilet designed to let us forget that we shit.


CommentsRSS icon

Erica, I'm as ardent a supporter of transit and urban living as you are, and I can tell you you're making a gross political miscalculation. If the tunnel is defeated, the viaduct will only be replaced by another viaduct. There is just not the support among elected officials or the public (even in Seattle) for the surface route. People don't get it.

By your writer's colorful metaphor, instead of hiding the toilet, we will only continue displaying it proudly in our city's front yard.

Or getting rid of the toilet entirely, and letting people shit all over the streets! ;)

i'm all for banning cars in seattle.

problem solved.

Couldn't disagree more with the initial comment.

WSDOT wants an elevated structure. I don't think there's anyone else who does, other than the suburban schmoes who whine about their view, a view that would disappear on a rebuilt viaduct anyway, since it would have up-to-code safety walls on either side.

If Seattle could actually unite and say, we don't want a tunnel - and we can't afford it, which this piece makes painfully clear - we could have a conversation about surface streets. Which, frankly, are an option which should have been considered a long time ago, rather than getting wrapped up in myths about 'capacity replacement' and the like.

There actually is quite a bit of local public support for the People's Waterfront Coallition's surface route plan. I know that Steinbrueck has definitely come out in favor of it, and many others quietly support it, and would come out publicly if the situation were right.

The issue here is that the state hasn't added it to the EIS process and studied it as a legitimate alternative to the other (poorer) options. If they were to put it on the drawing board, I think it would move to the head of the pack.

Cressona, were you around to participate in the dialog when abolition of slavery was proposed, to say "I'm as ardent a supporter of human rights as you, Erica, but the economy isn't ready for it." Or perhaps you were there when Jimmy Carter asked us to turn down our thermostats and responded with "I'm as ardent a supporter of saving energy as you, Erica, but the rest of America isn't ready for it."

Getting real data about a different approach on the table is healthy, not dangerous. You really think Seattleites have become so reactionary and dumb that they should be protected from informed debate?

We shouldn't ban cars outright. We should do what New York did during the transit strike: ban cars coming into the city that have less than four passengers.

What we should ban is idiots making proposals like that.

Seattle isn't New York. I've lived in both places, and I know. New York has a transit system. Seattle doesn't, and never will.

Banning cars or limiting them to four passengers would kill the city dead. Dead, dead, dead. Every company in the region would have a new headquarters somewhere else within a month -- not just the city, either; all those people who live in the city but work outside would go, too.

The Starbuckses would empty out, depriving Stranger readers of their employment. They'd have to go too.


People touting idiotic solutions like that make more reasonable ideas look crazy too.


Toilets aren't there to "make us forget we shit"; they're there to carry the stuff away. No one but semiotics-addled college students is confused about what toilets are for. Toilets are not crazy; getting rid of toilets for symbolic reasons is crazy. Pretending that cars can just be waved away is crazy.


The Boston feller is absolutely correct; we cannot afford a tunnel, period, zip, no way. The estimates you're hearing are lowballed, by about half at the minimum. There's no point in even talking about it; it's pie in the sky, it's personal jet-packs for every resident, it's, oh, MONORAIL crazy. It's NOT HAPPENING.


It would be nice to hear somebody get real on this issue. I don't expect Stranger readers to demonstrate clue, but our elected officials should be held to a higher standard.


The surface option still requires a rebuilt seawall, which is a massive engineering project. Disruption and chaos and traffic horror galore. And the problem of the traffic really exists. Traffic means business, and without business the city dies, period.

Tear it down, rebuild the sea wall, put some surface streets in and then make the rest a publicly accessible waterfront park.

With the billions we save not building a tunnel or viaduct part 2 we can fix all the other parts of the grid that are falling to pieces.

The emerald city shouldn't have an asphalt waterfront.

Betting on the tunnel.

Above post mentions the seawall - It must be replaced.

Streets are only the debate if you decide to replace the seawall and not the duct.

Money will be found. Watch Nickels.

His place in local history. This state and this city are wealthy and REPEAT-- all you wonks-lite -- the seawall must be replaced.

I'm wondering why no one's proposed an above-ground tunnel alternative. That is, rebuild the viaduct, then put a lid on it, like a giant Freeway Park (or to pick a place less redolent of the Topography of Terror, a giant Cal Anderson Park). Seems to me this has to be cheaper than a tunnel, but provides a more aesthetically pleasing solution than another viaduct.

I live in Belltown (no duh), and we're supposed to be for this whole tunnel thing. I was (and sort of am, a little bit still) until I found out that in Belltown, the "tunnel" turns into a VIADUCT!!

WTF?! Apparently, north of Victor Steinbrueck Park (more or less), the whole thing comes airborne!

I say again: WTF!?

Quoting Surface Route: "There actually is quite a bit of local public support for the People's Waterfront Coallition's surface route plan. I know that Steinbrueck has definitely come out in favor of it, and many others quietly support it, and would come out publicly if the situation were right."

One councilmember does not a movement make. Last I checked, David Della and (much to my disappointment) Nick Licata were in favor of a rebuild. I keep hearing in forums like this one, "Oh, there's a lot of public support for the surface route." But then when I actually broach the idea to regular Seattle residents, they look at me like I'm nuts. Let's see some kind of scientific survey of Seattleites or people in the region. I think what you would find is that the surface route comes in a poor third.

Quoting Swell: "Cressona, were you around to participate in the dialog when abolition of slavery was proposed, to say 'I'm as ardent a supporter of human rights as you, Erica, but the economy isn't ready for it.'"

Looks like you picked the wrong historical analogy. Read the new book by Doris Kearns Goodwin, "Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln." Read the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Abraham Lincoln came very late to the abolition party. Long before then, he followed an approach of containment and compromise. In fact, if Lincoln had campaigned on an abolition platform, he would never have been elected president and he obviously would not have succeeded in abolishing slavery as he did.

Like it or not, we live in a car-dominated culture, and real progress to reduce our dependence on automobiles is going to come from shrewd maneuvers and even, yes, compromises. I'm not interested in the abolitionists because I'm not interested in failure.

Cressona:
As I said, there are several others out there who are in favor of the surface route, but not ready to come out publicly about it.

To quote you: "Let's see some kind of scientific survey of Seattleites or people in the region." What the hell do you think an EIS will do? It will help Seattleites or people in the region make an informed decision. At this point, I'm actually not willing to sign on the dotted line when it comes to the surface route, but it's irresponsible to ignore that alternative and seriously undercuts the whole process. Whether it will work or not is something that needs to be studied, and I think the EIS would have to be done with some complex economic studies, but we deserve to see what it would look like. Then ask who supports it. Plus, maybe just once, we shouldn't sit around with our thumbs up our asses hoping for consensus, but instead actually move forward with something.

I'm not clear what kind of "shrewd maneuvers" you're expecting to happen.

And, yes, the seawall has to be rebuilt no matter what. It's a given, regardless of what option happens.

And Belltowner, my understanding is that the same thing happens on the other end of the tunnel at Pioneer Square.

Steinbrueck has now come out with his
own tunnel idea which he says can
go up Western Ave. He said, based on
the build estimates this new tunnel will cost half of current estimated cost of the tunnel Nickels and his supporters desire.

Steinbrueck also said be thinks the
stated the cost of the current Nickel's desired project has been spectacularly underestimated,
and it will be unbuildable.

Wasn't anyone aware of this?

---Jensen

Why do you folks buy into the conventional narrative that the whole seawall has to be replaced? Look into it before you make such outrageous (and convenient) statements.

Looks like Surface Route has sidestepped the question of polling:

  • "As I said, there are several others out there who are in favor of the surface route, but not ready to come out publicly about it." I'm not talking about politicians here. I'm talking about regular citizens who have nothing to fear for expressing their opinions. Even then, I find it a bit disingenuous for you to say you have all this support from officials who are just not willing to come out. Anyone could say that about any cause, and who knows if they're lying? I've talked with transportation planners who are very pro-transit, and they scoff at the People's Waterfront Coalition proposal.
  • Yes, an EIS is a valuable instrument, but no, it is not a public opinion survey. The people who are informed and motivated enough to respond to an EIS are not a representative sample of the voting populace. Anything but. To make matters worse, an EIS throws a disproportionate number of NIMBY's into the mix.

I think the reason Surface Route has sidestepped the question of polling is that he or she knows as well as I do that the PWC alternative simply does not have public support.

By the same token, I'm not necessarily opposed to seeing the surface route included in an EIS. Just, you gotta get invited to the dance.

Cressona's point was the best and most accurate of the points. The tunnel is just not a good idea for many reasons. But neither is the no-highway option, not without comprehensive mass transit. Build the new above-ground viaduct, work on getting that mass transit in place, THEN rip it out for good.

I think the no-highway plan is good intentioned plan and will be a good idea. But in our city's current situation, it is not a good idea now, nor would it have been even with Link and the Green Line, had it been built. There's not enough transit coverage to offset the losses, and you overestimate the city's ability to compensate with street improvements.

And remember a previous comment: the reason an elevated viaduct was built in the first place was because no one else could use the land below it, which is taken up, if you've ever been in that area and noticed, by train tracks, which do get used every single day. If you go with a no-highway option, you still can't do anything with the land. The only people who benefit really are those Downtown businesses that get a prettier view.

There is no other potential for that land unless you take out the trains' right of way.

I like the idea of a lidded highway--the BQE in Brooklyn Heights is lidded as it runs along the East River. Above it is a promenade that affords views of Lower Manhattan (that's where Johnny Travolta is with his girl in Sat. Nt. Fever).

I just want to clarify my position in response to Gomez:
"Cressona's point was the best and most accurate of the points. The tunnel is just not a good idea for many reasons. But neither is the no-highway option, not without comprehensive mass transit. Build the new above-ground viaduct, work on getting that mass transit in place, THEN rip it out for good."

If there is anything I stand for, it is that I stand against another viaduct. If there is anything that transit supporters, urbanists, environmentalists, etc. should unite behind concerning viaduct replacement, it is to avoid another viaduct by whatever means necessary, whether that means is a tunnel or a surface route. My great disappointment with the PWC is that they are now acting as dividers not uniters even though they have lost, and lost badly, at the polls:

  • The Green Line monorail, the one major alternative that could have absorbed a lot of viaduct trips, was defeated overwhelmingly.
  • Greg Nickels was re-elected while being unabashedly pro-tunnel.
  • The voters rejected I-912, knowing full well that it would have killed the funding for a full-fledged viaduct replacement.

I'm sorry to say I'm disappointed in Gomez too in calling for us to spend billions of dollars building something only to tear it down. This does not exactly qualify as serious discourse.

I'm with respected engineers Neil Twelker and Victor Grey - rebuild the Seawall, externally brace the existing structure and use jet grouting to solidify the soils underneath so the Viaduct will survive the next earthquake and, if it's unusable then, consider tearing it down.

But, you know, a cost/benefit analysis that considers the needs of the West side of Seattle over those of downtonwn may well be too much to ask for.

BTW - I'll bet all of the autophobes here a nickel that people will still be driving personal vehicles in 50 years (hopefully cleaner electric or hybrid ones). To mix metaphors, that train has already sailed, folks!

That said, I agree that the tunnel (and all of the related nonsense to lower Aurora north of the Battery Street Tunnel) is gonna cost a whole lot more than Nickels and Paul Allen (who has quietly been a big driver behind this project) will admit - they want to start digging before the funding is in hand to commit the public to the full project.

Replace the seawall, and build a super-reinforced tunnel with footings on the top for a new viaduct.

That way we can double SR99's carrying capacity, and accommodate projected traffic increases through at least 2012.

Well, fnarf is right about a couple things - I heard the Director of Seattle's Transportation Department telling a room full of people just this morning about how absolutely miserable the Viaduct project will be, whether a tunnel is built or an elevated structure is built. Estimates range from 2-3 years of total closure. They're even talking about buying out waterfront businesses, since they figure pretty much no one will be down there during construction.

It's also true that banning cars with less than four people wouldn't work. There simply aren't alternatives, like there are in New York or London or Paris or even Boston.

So why not take the billions and billions of dollars we're talking about squandering on a tunnel, whose eventual cost is not even yet determined accurately, and spend more of that money on transit, and on building the kinds of walkable and bikeable neighborhoods we all want to see? The car addiction has to end sooner or later...why not sooner?

And for Mr. X:

A lot of the support for the tunnel is coming from folks at Vulcan, in Queen Anne and other close-in neighborhoods (like Belltown, etc.) who are being sold the Aurora improvements as the price for their support.

The City is still pushing hard for switching Mercer and Valley to 2-way alignment. Doing that without lowering Aurora north of Battery makes little sense, since you can't get the street grid reconnection (at only two points, now, Harrison and Thomas) unless you lower Aurora.

And as for the funding, well, of course you're right, the money isn't there...and we don't know what it will really cost anyway. But that only seems to stop us for transit projects - road projects get signed off on, and the somehow the money is "found".

Look, Mr. Small-Town-Pennsylvania Cressona:
Maybe Surface Route is side-stepping the polling issue because she doesn't GIVE A FUCK about polling on this issue at this time. Any poll put out there right now would be so skewed because of misinformation and lack of information. I'd much rather people who know what they're doing weigh in before we get the populus's opinion. I think you keep missing my point when it comes to the surface route. Despite my current "name," I'm not a complete supporter of the surface route. I am, however, a supporter of giving all of the options consideration.

They are like the modern toilet designed to let us forget that we shit.

You'd like those old fashioned toilets that just let the poo sit there and stink up the house? No? Try living with an outhouse 24x7 - that is a much better alternative for a large urban area. The smell come August would make a strong man weep.

I can see the need to close the argument with analogy but .. you can do better than that.

On the seawall:

Has anyone other than WSDOT done a cost estimate on seawall replacement? Do we really think the highway department is the smartest place to be getting numbers from?

Remember, the seawall stretches a lot farther than the segment that would be replaced with the "core tunnel" from King to Pine. Who pays for the rest of the seawall replacement?

And for Belltowner: yeah, the pictures that are coming out make it a little more clear what the reality is, don't they? I think Allied Arts' vision of a beautiful waterfront kind of suffers a bit when you see where the tunnel ends.

And one more thought:

Some of y'all are willing to spend billions and billions of dollars in the hope that later, "after we get the mass transit in place" or when political situations change or whatever else happens, we'll be able to make things right. We'll be able to "fix" the tunnel, or tear down an elevated highway...

WTF?

We have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to change things. To assume that somehow we'll have another chance to deal with this issue in a different way while we're still able to walk upright seems asinine. If we lose, we lose, but arguing that "voters said no" believes voters have been well-informed on the issue, which they categorically have *not*. The crisis here is in education as much as worrying when the next earthquake will hit.

JOHNNYCAKESSEA Wrote:
"A lot of the support for the tunnel is coming from folks at Vulcan, in Queen Anne and other close-in neighborhoods (like Belltown, etc.) who are being sold the Aurora improvements as the price for their support."

I believe Nickels very recently announced that his estimate for his proposed tunnel is now LESS than originally estimated. This is apparently due to the idea being fielded by the Nickles camp of postponing the improvements on the Aurora.

It seems that team Nickels believes
this can be accomlished at a later
date and with different funding.
Nickles now suggests his plan is
now only short $300-$400 million.

I am extremely skeptical of any
cost estimates now made by this
mayor. It seems he is trying to
make the project fit the projected
revenue estimates....which is something we recently experienced
with the Seattle Monorail Project.

Della (and Licata?) want an areial
structure....

Nickels wants a tunnel...

Steinbrueck wants a different tunnel....

What's next?

---Jensen

Cressona, excellent to see you think the No-Highway / surface solution deserves to be studied, examined, costed, and debated instead of ignored. Now tell the politicians that.

And Johnycakessea, well said. Voters are misinformed by the highway department's propaganda that the city will be strangled to death by gridlock if they don't get their new highway. I'd like them to present one example of this happening, ever. More often these days the opposite is true: cities that invested heavily in highways when they were practically free are having a very difficult time paying for just maintenance.

And Jensen, I think you're misinformed about Steinbrueck advocating a different tunnel. He said he thinks the tunnel is a boondoggle, can never be built for what the Mayor claims, and it's time to find a more cost-effective solution.

Swell, Steinbrueck made the pitch to
Dave Ross on Kiro radio yesterday
or last Friday. He apparently believes this new tunnel can be oriented along
Western Ave, and can be built for
significantly less money than the tunnel proposed by Nickels. He confirmed in the conversation he thinks the cost of mayor's tunnel is woefully underestimated/funded. Telephone or e-mail Steinbrueck's office. I would think he would confirm that conversation with Ross.

---Jensen


"Voters are misinformed by the highway department's propaganda that the city will be strangled to death by gridlock if they don't get their new highway."

Where will the 100,000+ vehicles go? Most of that traffic is port-related & won't just disappear in favor of carpools or bicycles. This city already has recognized traffic problems. Removing a currently-existing highway and not providing a viable alternative to I-5 will only exacerbate the issue. Seattle will be strangled in gridlock and all the wishing in the world (ie diverting it all through downtown/belltown city streets) won't change that.

Someone get Jason a kewpie doll!

You autophobes are gonna HATE downtown and the waterfront w/another 100+k trips a day through it (and those of you who do take buses better bring a nice thick book to read while you wait!)

JASON Wrote:
"Where will the 100,000+ vehicles go? Most of that traffic is port-related & won't just disappear in favor of carpools or bicycles."


Jason, can you confirm where you heard or read most of the traffic is port related. If you are talking about container traffic, I don't think that is correct. The viaduct and much of
HWY99 from the West Seattle Bridge
thru downtown is a barrier to container traffic trying to access the eastern docks. I very rarely see ocean container traffic on
the viaduct.

--- Jensen

I have to respond to swell here:
"Cressona, excellent to see you think the No-Highway / surface solution deserves to be studied, examined, costed, and debated instead of ignored. Now tell the politicians that."

What I said was I wasn't necessarily opposed to the surface route being studied. I did not, however, say it deserved to be studied.

If you can muster up enough of a groundswell, fine. And I would say the same thing to everyone else coming up with their own alternative alternatives. However, the recent choices voters made strongly suggest that the surface route does not deserve to be studied, that there is no such groundswell.

It's odd to me that the same folks who claim to be speaking on behalf of the grassroots have such disdain for the voters as to dismiss them as being brainwashed by propaganda. "If we can only have more time to educate them..." Frankly, I think it is we as transportation activists who should be educated by the voters, especially when the voters are being shortsighted.

By the way, does anyone have further info on Steinbrueck's new proposal? Anyone have a sense how serious it is?

The viaduct traffic is NOT port-related. That is a total myth. Container traffic goes out on rail and the nearby interstates. The viaduct serves Ballard - to - Seatac. If you're going much further north than Ballard you'll take I-5. The question is, do we want to spend as much as we're spending on light rail plus as much as we could still spend on monorail and more on what is essentially an in-city expressway that only serves double the drivers who take 45th every day? Thomas Oles' analogy to toilets should have really been to dogs: they kick dirt onto their poop and think they've made it disappear. Then you're walking along and you step in it anyway...


This is Stephanie from Councilmember Steinbrueck's office. Let me set clarify some things:

1. Steinbrueck is not proposing anything specific regarding the Viaduct.

2. Steinbrueck has been quoted as saying "I would take to the streets before supporting a rebuild" and he stands by that statement.

3. Steinbrueck is interested in exploring a range of options regarding the replacement of the viaduct including, in no particular order:

A. A no-rebuild, improve-the-grid strategy being proposed by the People's Waterfront Coalition. (www.peopleswaterfront.org)

B. A bored (sometimes called "mined") tunnel that goes underneath the city from the stadiums to Roy Street. This option did not originate from Peter, but from various sources. (To use a pun, it's sort of an underground idea at this point and is not official.)

C. A bridge that goes out over Elliott Bay.

D. Any other plausible idea that keeps the waterfront open and isn't so expensive that we don't have any other money available for transit and mobility for the rest of our lives and our grandchildren's lives and their grandchildren's lives. (We still have 520, I-5 repaving, and many other car-related projects upcoming that are in the billions...)

E. The tunnel option if it could be proven that there will be little/no cost overruns and that there is wide political support for the idea (which there doesn't seem to be now.)

Steinbrueck is concerned that the tunnel's costs have been underestimated (which he expressed on his recent Dave Ross show appearance) and that we could be looking at millions or billions more than the stated cost. Public project cost overruns are common, as we've seen from the Fire Facilities Levy recently, so we can't be blind to that possibility.

Steinbrueck is interested in opening the current Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) process to include other options aside from the tunnel and the rebuild.

Lastly, Steinbrueck feels that we should not be investing so much in automobile-related transportation solutions in the future and should be thinking of moving people, not cars. Despite Seattle's liberal bent, it has not taken a "transit first" approach and still prioritizes cars. This is problematic on several levels, as we can all list pretty easily so I won't here. Yes, we are not NYC, but we certainly can make inroads (har, har)into providing viable alternatives to having to use a car to get around.

FYI, Steinbrueck is on the Transportation Committee for the first time this year.

I hope this helps.

FYI: Councilmember Jan Drago is the new transportation chair.

Stephanie, thanks for the clarification.

I completely agree with Mr. Steinbrueck on the following sentiment: "I would take to the streets before supporting a rebuild."

STEPHANIE Wrote:

FYI, Steinbrueck is on the Transportation Committee for the first time this year.

FYI: Councilmember Jan Drago is the new transportation chair.

----------

This ought to be a very, very interesting committee........

---Jensen

Thank you for the input, Stephanie.

Just to clarify:

Based on your laundry list of what Steinbrueck is considering, at this point in time he appears not to know what he wants outside of it NOT
being a repeat of the current
viaduct.

Stephanie, just how long has this issue been in the council's face, and more importantly, what authority does the city council really have over influencing the building of a state funded highway?

Stephanie, you wrote, "Public project cost overruns are common, as we've seen from the Fire Facilities Levy recently, so we can't be blind to that possibility."

It isn't that we shouldn't be blind
to them, Stephanie. The question is why are we being blind-sided by them?
Why are there so many cost overruns
on public projects? What is Steinbrueck doing to insure cost overruns are no longer common? What measures is the city council putting into place to oversee the use of public funds so overruns rarely occur?

---Jensen


Wow, the no-highway zealots continue to prove how frighteningly ignorant they are.

It's going to cost billions to tear down the highway anyway. The billions we will lose from a reduced highway capacity will chop-block this city's economy. People are not gonna just ditch their cars en masse, especially if there is no mass transit system. And I've explained this multiple times, with the explanation always either falling on deaf ears or drowned in the constant shouting of 'This is a chance of a lifetime' and 'you're highwaycentric and just don't want to consider our option'. If we didn't want to consider your option, we'd ignore you.

The viaduct does not carry port traffic, but its loss will cripple downtown traffic, thus reducing turn times for the transport of exported and imported goods.

Building a comprehensive transit system will take decades. Yes, you can have phase one of a line built in 5-10 years, but you only cover a portion of the city, and additional phases to cover those uncover areas will take years of construction and billions of dollars at a time. It won't happen soon enough to offset the viaduct's permanent loss.

None of you have any idea what you're talking about. You have no understanding of commerce, city planning, traffic patterns, human behavior or the effects of highway capacity on all these things. All you spew is the same stubborn single-minded rhetoric.

Grant Cogswell went off about how fucked this city is, but he's ironically correct: we are definitely fucked... if we give your obsessive, idealist and myopic no-highway plan the green light, right now.

Gomez: "It's going to cost billions to tear the highway down anyway."

Really? Why? Demolition is a lot cheaper than new construction. Shutting down the road now means you no longer have a safety problem. Take the money and put it into building the transit system you basically admit we need. If we don't do that, when it comes time to build the transit system that we need, we'll say we don't have the money because we spent it all on the roads.

Note: it's kind of hard to take your argument seriously when you spend half your time bashing the mental abilities of those who disagree with you.

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